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11-27-2017, 10:03 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I should appoint you to be my spokesman.

My travel kit for the K-3. Sigma 8-16, DA 18-135, DA*60-250 (or DA*200) and 1.4 and 1.7x converters, 21 ltd and 40 xs. A five lens relatively compact kit that covers 8mmm to 476mm.

I never thought the K-1 could cover the long end. Had hope it could cover the wide end. I currently go out with the K-1 and 28-105 an DA*200 or DA*60-250, but the plan was all landscape would be tight the K-1 and macro and wildlife would be with the K-3. I was willing to pick up the extra weight of the K-1. What I wasn't prepared for was not being able to get under 28mm with a portable lens.

I'm getting along with an FAJ 18-35 which weighs next to nothing, but has pretty severe distortion, and I'm a guy who doesn't really mind distortion. SO when I'm noticing distortion, 90% of the forum would probably just toss the lens. I need something light, hopefully lighter than the Sigma 8-16 I now carry to be somewhere in the 14 to 20mm range. I can live with a prime, but I can't live with too heavy.

It just blows me away that there is absolutely nothing. All I'm looking for is one little UWA lens. I've heard it said on 35mm film that a 35mm lens is not really a wide angle lens. 28mm is definitely wide angle but barely so. But, 28 is close enough to 24 that 24 is not really a solution.

I find it hard to believe that a "modern" camera company has no offerings in Ultra Wide Angle. That is a category of lens everyone else covers is it not? I do have many images taken with my Sigma 8-16 that I absolutely love. Does Pentax really think I'm going to give up on taking those images just so I can shoot with a K-1 instead of a K-3?

I'm a guy who has carried Medium format film cameras on canoe trips, and somewhere actually have some medium format moose images... so don't tell me I'm expecting too much of a larger format, I've carried larger, its about the missing capability in portable glass. It's about not having the capability with my K-1 that I would have had with my Program Plus when I bought it in 1989, had I chosen at that time to go the route.

I'm glad Kenspo and shooters like him are getting the lenses they want. Pentax is making an effort to satisfy that type of shooter as do other manufacturers.. I'm annoyed I'm not getting the lenses i want and as far as I can tell, Pentax is making no effort at all to fill that gap, unlike other manufacturers.
Norm, it may not be wide enough but have you considered the Samyang 24mm? Yes, it is manual focus and perhaps a bit on the heavy side but I was able to use it with the K-1 for hiking instead of the K-3 with DA*16-50 I have used until now. Leaving the battery grip at home this combination is even a bit lighter. Especially for landscape shots autofocus isn't that necessary once you have the hyper-focal distance dialed in for your lens. It is my stop-gap lens until Pentax releases a new prime on the wide end of things.

11-27-2017, 11:07 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fries Quote
Norm, it may not be wide enough but have you considered the Samyang 24mm? Yes, it is manual focus and perhaps a bit on the heavy side but I was able to use it with the K-1 for hiking instead of the K-3 with DA*16-50 I have used until now. Leaving the battery grip at home this combination is even a bit lighter. Especially for landscape shots autofocus isn't that necessary once you have the hyper-focal distance dialed in for your lens. It is my stop-gap lens until Pentax releases a new prime on the wide end of things.
I'm considering the Samyang 20. But the size and lack of AF and no WR are what is holding me back. But the way things stand right now, the Samyang 20 is my closest option. Did I mention I had an accident on a trip this year that required 4 days of drying out my 50 Macro that could have been un-necssary if it had been WR. I picked up the DFA 100 macro and will in the future leave the 50 home, but I'm reluctant to buy a lens that could be a problem in the future. Once you've fretted through disassembling a lens an drying it out, you tend to want to do things that might avoid that problem.

Last edited by normhead; 11-27-2017 at 11:17 AM.
11-27-2017, 11:13 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I find it hard to believe that a "modern" camera company has no offerings in Ultra Wide Angle.
In terms of image quality, DSLR full frame was often considered as to having the edge over apsc for wide angle, while apsc was preferred for shooting with supertele lenses. Pentax choice of releasing a DFA*50 1.4 first is kinda weird, I would have thought 20mm f4 and 85mm 1.4 coming first, those are the only two primes I'd buy. I have the DFA15-30, I used it two times, image quality is great but it's huge and unbalanced, I don't like to use it. The choice for k mount wide angle is all manual focus or legacy glass, that ok but not so great.
11-27-2017, 11:18 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
In terms of image quality, DSLR full frame was often considered as to having the edge over apsc for wide angle, while apsc was preferred for shooting with supertele lenses. Pentax choice of releasing a DFA*50 1.4 first is kinda weird, I would have thought 20mm f4 and 85mm 1.4 coming first, those are the only two primes I'd buy. I have the DFA15-30, I used it two times, image quality is great but it's huge and unbalanced, I don't like to use it. The choice for k mount wide angle is all manual focus or legacy glass, that ok but not so great.
K mount UWA lenses are so scarce since the K-1 came out, I'm not sure that's even an option. It's more like a remote possibility.

11-27-2017, 11:18 AM   #20
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In the end, it looks like my and Normhead's points of view are not that dissimilar - with the exception that I'm quite excited about the new high-end lenses; I believe the so-called "Kenspo lenses" will push the brand forward.

And what do you know, I'm also waiting for a smaller (than the 15-30, at the very least) and hopefully less expensive - yet high quality - ultra wide. There's the one from the roadmap, but it's near the end... how much waiting?
In the spring I'll decide if to temporarily get a third party.

Getting back to the OP:
I do no believe we'll see a return of the aperture rings. On the contrary, KAF4 is the future (but I guess an aperture ring can be electronic...)
Going back to history is not a solution, and Pentax is not a Kickstarter operated fraud company. I'm sorry, M42 is too unrealistic, as is K-mount manual focus - even Leica would want to add autofocus to their M line.
11-27-2017, 11:20 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I'm considering the Samyang 20.
Also considered this one and ordered it in July 2017, after waiting until September the dealer contacted Samyang again and it was said to have stock available in October. In October I came back, still no stock... now almost December it is still the same. Since I found weird that the date of availability is postponed more than once, I decided to put any k mount purchase on hold until...
11-27-2017, 12:15 PM - 3 Likes   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I'm considering the Samyang 20. But the size and lack of AF and no WR are what is holding me back. But the way things stand right now, the Samyang 20 is my closest option. Did I mention I had an accident on a trip this year that required 4 days of drying out my 50 Macro that could have been un-necssary if it had been WR. I picked up the DFA 100 macro and will in the future leave the 50 home, but I'm reluctant to buy a lens that could be a problem in the future. Once you've fretted through disassembling a lens an drying it out, you tend to want to do things that might avoid that problem.
I considered the Samyang but went with a K20mm f 4 instead. I have no need for a fast lens for what I shoot and the K 20 is a compact lens compared to the Samyang. I'm afraid if Pentax ever gets around to an UWA it will be a big f1.8 monster! They don't seem to have much interest in making compact quality primes anymore. I also value WR but what do you think the odds are of Pentax coming out with a small WR 20mm?

The K20 does a pretty good job:


Last edited by sibyrnes; 11-27-2017 at 12:40 PM.
11-27-2017, 12:42 PM - 1 Like   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Also considered this one and ordered it in July 2017, after waiting until September the dealer contacted Samyang again and it was said to have stock available in October. In October I came back, still no stock... now almost December it is still the same. Since I found weird that the date of availability is postponed more than once, I decided to put any k mount purchase on hold until...
If you think so, I can ask for you if the Hungarian dealer has one in stock. It can be a solution for you. Let me know.

Samyang 20mm F1.8 ED AS UMC Pentax K objektív - Fotó objektív

11-27-2017, 12:52 PM   #24
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I've got a K-1, 15-30, 28-105 and 70-200. Won't buy the 24-70 as the quality of the 28-105 is good enough.

I shoot mostly landscape, and some astro/milky way. I don't find the 15-30 to be too big or unbalanced. If I'm shooting serious landscapes, it's on a tripod. And having a zoom is useful. One of my recent trips was in a dark slot canyon. Being able to zoom from ultra-wide to wide made all the difference, as in some places, moving to adjust the zoom/distance just wasn't possible.
If I'm hiking or biking and trying to go really lightweight, I just take the 28-105. Wish it went to 24 sometimes, but mostly that's manageable.
I suppose there are a handful of times where I'd want to take the 28-105 and a 20 or 24/1.4 or 1.7 instead of the 15-30. But I don't think that would be too often. I'd probably buy a high-quality fast ultrawide prime, and part of me wishes that was ahead of the 50 and 85 on the roadmap. But I can certainly see why Pentax prioritized things the way they have.
11-27-2017, 01:02 PM   #25
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Of my 10,000 images in my current library, 71 images are taken with my Sigma 8-16, if you look at my number of print worthy images, a much higher percentage is 8-16 images. possibly 15 of the 71 are print worthy. So, I don't want it often, but when I want it I want it. I definitely don't want it for the $2k and 2 pounds the 15-30.

In my business, not having at least the 60-250 and 1.4 along for wildlife would be next to criminal, so I'm starting with a more weight than you, and everything has to fit into two Pelican cases, so there is a size limit as well.

It's all gotta go in here.


Included in this kit is the FAJ 18-35 variable aperture, I'd like something a little better that fits in it's spot in the case. This is already as heavy as I can put up with.
K-1 with 18-135 1.4 TC in red case. K-3 with DA*200 FAJ 18-35 and F 1.7x AF adapter and FA 50 macro in Orange case.

Last edited by normhead; 11-27-2017 at 01:12 PM.
11-27-2017, 01:15 PM - 1 Like   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Caver Quote
If you think so, I can ask for you if the Hungarian dealer has one in stock. It can be a solution for you. Let me know. Samyang 20mm F1.8 ED AS UMC Pentax K objektív - Fotó objektív
Thanks for the link. Yes, some shops have some stock. After waiting 2 months, I changed my mind.
11-27-2017, 02:39 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Of my 10,000 images in my current library, 71 images are taken with my Sigma 8-16, if you look at my number of print worthy images, a much higher percentage is 8-16 images. possibly 15 of the 71 are print worthy. So, I don't want it often, but when I want it I want it. I definitely don't want it for the $2k and 2 pounds the 15-30.

In my business, not having at least the 60-250 and 1.4 along for wildlife would be next to criminal, so I'm starting with a more weight than you, and everything has to fit into two Pelican cases, so there is a size limit as well.

It's all gotta go in here.


Included in this kit is the FAJ 18-35 variable aperture, I'd like something a little better that fits in it's spot in the case. This is already as heavy as I can put up with.
K-1 with 18-135 1.4 TC in red case. K-3 with DA*200 FAJ 18-35 and F 1.7x AF adapter and FA 50 macro in Orange case.
That FAJ 18-35 is hard to beat for weight Norm... And weather sealing is a concern of mine too. It is one of the reasons I use Pentax and I still use my K-3 in adverse weather conditions a lot. But I bought the K-1 knowing what lenses were available and I have used it with the Samyang in light rain. I'll miss some shots if I am only having the K-1 with me because of the limitations of the Samyang but without that lens I wouldn't have had the K-1 at all... Anyway, for guy's like us that are more conscious about weight and dimensions out of need or necessity finding a compromise you can live with is the name of the game until Pentax makes good on its promises. And even then the solution they come up with has the potential of not catering to our crowd. But it is a risk I took willingly and we both have a solid APC system to bail us out. It isn't all that bad. I've had lots of fun with the K-1 on a solo hike with only two lenses. Yes, I've missed shots because of that but within those limitations I still can try to be creative and have more than enough fun!
11-27-2017, 03:11 PM   #28
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Would something like the FA20-35 suit your purposes? A cut above the FA-J series from everything I've heard, and capable of delivering quite good results, plus not being exactly the biggest lens on earth.

Of course what you really want is a 15mm f/4 D-FA Limited, isn't it?

I went down the manual focus route for this and picked myself up an RMC Tokina 17/3.5, but then I also have the need for a film-compatible body with an aperture ring, so a new D-FA lens would actually not suit my purposes as well.
11-27-2017, 04:03 PM - 4 Likes   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by TwoUptons Quote
Before anyone takes this too seriously (especially Norm or Ken, who as far as I know had nothing to do with coming up with the terminology...so apologies to them in advance), I started thinking about this after reading a bit in this thread...
Is there a high quality compact prime around 17-18mm for K1? - PentaxForums.com

I like to think most of us here generally wish success on our chosen favorite camera company, and there are threads about how to best have that happen. This is one of those... And like most, it's being started with no special insight or knowledge...

One of the points in the thread linked above is that there seems to be a divergence in the Pentax K-mount lens lineup between large, highly-corrected, fast, expensive lenses (Kenspo lenses, as exemplified by the recent 15-30 f2.8) and Pentax's former expertise in compact, slower lenses (Normhead lenses, as exemplified by the SMC-M 20mm f4.0, let's say).

The conundrum, as I see it, is that the market is in such a strange state right now, Ricoh is in a place where they really need to do both, but in a way that keeps them unique in the marketplace without bankrupting them. I think the way to do that is with four basic classes of lenses:

The Kenspo lenses... DFA*/DA*
Pentax needs these to be considered viable as a 'real' camera company. These are what I like to think of as industrial output lenses. Designed for production and high output, working pros. Highly corrected, rugged, and suited to high-volume workflows. The lenses need to be competitive with Pro offerings from Canikon, certainly, but also to alternatives like Fuji and micro 4/3. But Pentax can't keep up with the Canikon lineups in breadth, so I think they're following the right path here for their lineup, even if I never end up buying their new 50mm, for example. And it will say a lot about them if they keep a strong lineup in both K-mount formats.

The Limiteds (DFA and DA)
Part of what makes Pentax different from Canikon, and I think essential. Lenses with character, but optically excellent and fully compatible with all of the latest gear. The priority here is creativity, with a bias toward smaller size, perhaps at the expense of workflow. As an aside, I'd like to see aperture rings on future DFA limiteds, but I have a bias... and a K1000...

The 'Regular Lenses'
This includes the consumer zooms as well as the non-limited primes. The other classes of lenses will sell the brand, but this is where the money will be made. Parts of this lineup are pretty well represented (35-55mm, for example, and 18-85mm on APS...), others, not so much... FA wide prime anyone? Fixing this is its own thread or two already, I think...

The Normhead lenses... HD Takumar?
This is where I wandered off a bit, so apologies to Norm if I got him completely wrong.
The 20mm f4 is what got me started here. That's not really a lens that fits into any of the existing categories. It's slow, manual focus, and old.
The only things I've seen like that lately are the absurdly overpriced Kickstarters from companies that share names with folks who made lenses 50+ years ago.
But I'd buy one in a hot second if it were reasonably priced, especially if it talked to my camera.
And that's where the speculation comes in...

Pentax has an interesting back catalogue of lenses with some fantastic characteristics that I think are ripe for a revisit. Maybe things like...
18mm f11 pancake
20mm f4
24mm f3.5
28mm f3.5 (or heck, the Ricoh 28mm f3.5 pancake)
55mm f1.8 (or 2.2...)
120mm f2.8
The idea would be that each lens would be manual focus, with the mechanically-excellent feel of the original Takumars and robust construction to make them, if not completely WR, at least pretty tough. They wouldn't have to be all-metal, but they should feel substantial and solid (though I would prefer all metal...). They should also be relatively compact and less expensive than, say, a $1200 retro imitation Zeiss (that's not distortion, it's character!). And all the ones I listed are really small compared to most new lenses.

Optically, the lenses are relatively simple, though a few tweaks and some modern coatings should be able to tame the CA of the older lenses while maintaining the personality. But these would not need to be packed with the same level of Pixie Dust as the Limiteds...

They would come in what I'll call the Ka+ mount, which is basically FA without the autofocus. This would include a working aperture ring as well as the digital pin to send focus distance and lens correction data. I'm guessing that implies a mechanical aperture (see below). Some of these lenses are also probably pretty easily adapted to short-register mounts if Ricoh ever decides to do a mirrorless...

Crucially, the lenses should also be available in M42, not so much for use on Spotmatics, though that would be fun, but for users of other digital brands who would be allowed a sneak-peak into the Pentax ecosystem, though they would miss out on the extras, which provides a path to switch to Pentax...

Heck, if it made sense from a marketing perspective, Pentax could even float these things on Kickstarter...
And then who would buy them?
Hopefully, Norm...
A bunch of people across brands who like the look and feel of older equipment but who want modern, 'I bought it new, not at a junk shop' reliability.
Pentaxians who want to stretch a bit outside of what they can get from other brands.

So, if nothing else, I feel better for having written this down

-Eric
I have been less active here lately. Why? Basically because I love my Pentax cameras, but I seem to be in constant conflict with other Pentax owners ... and this thread is a perfect example of that. In 1995 I left Pentax for twenty years and used Canon. Why? Because I personally thought, and still think, that their EF lenses are really good. I came back to Pentax because I had issue with the Canon Rebel bodies.

And this is where the conflict comes into play. Unlike you, I believe the future lies in space-age materials. I am 69. Someday all of us will die, and Pentax will have to replace us to continue, but that will require two things

(1) no more complaining here. I regularly hear people say “I would have gone Pentax, but I went _____, because Pentax Forum users think the brand is doomed."

(2) Lenses that look like they were designed in this century, complete with modern materials. The new KAF4 mount appears to be a good start, but we cannot kill new products in their infancy because they’re a break from the past.

Last edited by reh321; 11-27-2017 at 07:39 PM. Reason: quote marks
11-28-2017, 09:49 AM - 1 Like   #30
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I see APS as the obvious choice for small size and low weight. Compact, high quality lenses are available from Pentax with the largest APS lens line-up there is.
Fast lenses that is going to perform on tomorrows sensors are going to be big. Lens product life span is at least 10 years; even maybe 20.
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