Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
06-25-2018, 09:44 PM   #166
Veteran Member




Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Sunny San Diego
Posts: 336
I’m curious how these would score on dxomark with a more recent aps-c body. Their most recent tests are with the original K3. I’ve always loved the photos that I got from the lenses, but they don’t score as highly as I expected (not that it matters) when compared to some other modern lenses. That being said, they are a tremendous value for the image and build quality. But I would like to see an apples-to-apples comparison, or the best they are capable of, after the next flagship crop sensor is released.

06-25-2018, 10:10 PM - 2 Likes   #167
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 456
The whole point of at least the FA Limiteds was that it was not about numbers but the overall effect of the lens portrayal. High resolution numbers do not necessarily equate to beauty (which of course is in the eye of the beholder). This is particularly true of portraiture. So, don't worry about the score, look at photos on flickr for the Limiteds you're interested in and make up your own mind. If you see a difference, then Jun Hirakawa got it right (at least for the 43mm and 77mm FA's).
06-25-2018, 10:51 PM   #168
Veteran Member




Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Sunny San Diego
Posts: 336
QuoteOriginally posted by kernos Quote
The whole point of at least the FA Limiteds was that it was not about numbers but the overall effect of the lens portrayal. High resolution numbers do not necessarily equate to beauty (which of course is in the eye of the beholder). This is particularly true of portraiture. So, don't worry about the score, look at photos on flickr for the Limiteds you're interested in and make up your own mind. If you see a difference, then Jun Hirakawa got it right (at least for the 43mm and 77mm FA's).
I understand your argument with respect to the FA Ltds—and I have the 31 & 77. They’re excellent lenses, especially for their time. They’re of less concern to me since the design is so old (though I’d still be curious to see how they did on a K1.) I’m speaking more of the DA Ltds. I’ve liked both my 35 & 40, and while they may have nice character, if they are not sharp then you are not getting the most out of your sensor, at least in theory. Again, I’m not asking to compare from a consumer perspective, but to see how they perform in a standardized test with the Pentax’s next crop sensor iteration.
06-26-2018, 12:27 AM   #169
Pentaxian
Jonathan Mac's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Madrid, Spain
Posts: 10,851
QuoteOriginally posted by neokind Quote
I understand your argument with respect to the FA Ltds—and I have the 31 & 77. They’re excellent lenses, especially for their time. They’re of less concern to me since the design is so old (though I’d still be curious to see how they did on a K1.) I’m speaking more of the DA Ltds. I’ve liked both my 35 & 40, and while they may have nice character, if they are not sharp then you are not getting the most out of your sensor, at least in theory. Again, I’m not asking to compare from a consumer perspective, but to see how they perform in a standardized test with the Pentax’s next crop sensor iteration.
Are there any better APS-C sensors out there currently than the one in the K3, K3 II, K70 and K-P? I think we might have to wait quite a while to get one as I'm not aware of anything on the horizon at the moment.

My DA 35mm limited is tack sharp even wide open and the DA 40mm is not too far behind. I'm feel no need to test what they could do on a future higher res sensor, though I'm confident that they will quite happily hold their own.

06-26-2018, 02:50 AM - 1 Like   #170
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Gladys, Virginia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 27,606
QuoteOriginally posted by neokind Quote
I understand your argument with respect to the FA Ltds—and I have the 31 & 77. They’re excellent lenses, especially for their time. They’re of less concern to me since the design is so old (though I’d still be curious to see how they did on a K1.) I’m speaking more of the DA Ltds. I’ve liked both my 35 & 40, and while they may have nice character, if they are not sharp then you are not getting the most out of your sensor, at least in theory. Again, I’m not asking to compare from a consumer perspective, but to see how they perform in a standardized test with the Pentax’s next crop sensor iteration.
I think they'd be the same. The issue isn't the sensor or at least not much. If you bump sensor resolution you might get a bit more resolution from the DA limiteds, but I doubt a whole bunch, but as Jonathan says, current APS-C sensors are maxing out around 24 megapixels. DXO Mark is grading these lenses based on light transmission (they are slow lenses) and sharpness (they are sharp stopped down, but corner sharpness isn't always the best). Still, I really like them and love the rendering they turn out.
06-26-2018, 06:43 AM   #171
Veteran Member




Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Sunny San Diego
Posts: 336
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think they'd be the same. The issue isn't the sensor or at least not much. If you bump sensor resolution you might get a bit more resolution from the DA limiteds, but I doubt a whole bunch, but as Jonathan says, current APS-C sensors are maxing out around 24 megapixels. DXO Mark is grading these lenses based on light transmission (they are slow lenses) and sharpness (they are sharp stopped down, but corner sharpness isn't always the best). Still, I really like them and love the rendering they turn out.
I’d wondered because the difference some other brands show with the same lens between tested bodies is pretty stark. For example, the Sony Zeiss 35mm f2.8 scores 33 on the A7R and 39 on the A7Rii. The sensors are 36 vs 42 MP, so perhaps the resolution accounts for the change in its entirety, since the lens is a constant. Or perhaps there are other differences that affect sharpness out of the body about which I am unaware. That’s why I was wondering. And comparing the Zeiss on the Sony system to the Pentax, the Pentax beats out or equals the Zeiss on every measurement except sharpness. That’s really pretty impressive. Does the dxomark score weight toward sharpness over other metric, or am I misunderstanding what I am reading? Again, I don’t really care from a consumer perspective, I’m just trying to understand why the difference is there. I’ve had gorgeous results with my 35 Ltd...and for that matter, I’ve had incredible photos with my old film era lenses too, even though they wouldn’t score very well on lab tests compared to modern lenses.

Sony FE Carl Zeiss Sonnar T* 35mm F2.8 ZA on Sony A7R II vs Pentax HD DA 35mm F2.8 Macro Limited on Pentax K-3
06-26-2018, 07:56 AM - 3 Likes   #172
Pentaxian




Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Northern Michigan
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 6,155
QuoteOriginally posted by kernos Quote
The whole point of at least the FA Limiteds was that it was not about numbers but the overall effect of the lens portrayal. High resolution numbers do not necessarily equate to beauty
Yes, that's right. And so there are lenses out there from other brands that are "sharper." But here's the rub. To make lenses "sharper," (i.e., so they do better on resolution tests) manufacturers have to ratchet up the accutance. That causes the lens to render the edges of objects against a background with a very hard edge, which looks unnatural and causes the image as a whole to look flat. The limiteds give up a little bit of measurable resolution to provide a more natural sharpness, one that renders detail in a way that's closer to human perception.

Broadly speaking, lens characteristics can be broken down into two categories: the technical and measurable, and the pictoral and qualitative. Lenses that are high in both technical and pictorial qualities tend to be quite expensive: think Leica. Or they're ridiculously large: think Olympus SHG lenses or the new DFA* primes. The limiteds are high in pictorial qualities, they're compact, and they're relatively affordable (especially when compared to Leica), but the trade-off is they not the best lenses in terms of technical measurable specifications. They're a little less sharp than the best lenses out there and, at least in my experience (with the DA 15, DA 21, and DA 35), they're not all that sharp away from the center at longer distances.

06-26-2018, 09:43 AM   #173
Pentaxian
bdery's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Quebec city, Canada
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 9,352
QuoteOriginally posted by neokind Quote
though I’d still be curious to see how they did on a K1.
Why not go and read the review of each lens right here on pentaxforums?
06-26-2018, 09:50 AM   #174
Seeker of Knowledge
Loyal Site Supporter
aslyfox's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Topeka, Kansas
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 24,563
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by bdery Quote
Why not go and read the review of each lens right here on pentaxforums?
or the in depth review of the K 1 and the link you will find there for Pentax members trying various lenses out on the K 1 ?

Pentax K-1 Review - Available Lenses | PentaxForums.com Reviews
06-26-2018, 09:52 AM - 1 Like   #175
Veteran Member




Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Sunny San Diego
Posts: 336
QuoteOriginally posted by bdery Quote
Why not go and read the review of each lens right here on pentaxforums?
Because DXO is neutral and compares all lenses on the same criteria. Whether or not we agree with the criteria is worth discussing, but isn't really a conversation that I'm interested in having. I appreciate the reviews here and they've definitely influenced my buying decisions. Again, I'm not interested in this from a consumer point of view, I'm just curious how they stack up on the technical side compared to competitors. The K1 hasn't been used in any of the lens testing, that I can see, for any of the older FA lenses. I'm just curious, that's all.

---------- Post added 06-26-2018 at 09:56 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Aslyfox Quote
or the in depth review of the K 1 and the link you will find there for Pentax members trying various lenses out on the K 1 ?

Pentax K-1 Review - Available Lenses | PentaxForums.com Reviews
Because this is a community passionate about their system. That's helpful inside the group, but I'm interested in a comparative analysis. Again, the point of my initial inquiry is that I'm simply curious how the DA Ltds would measure on DXO tests with updated crop sensors, since I've seen big jumps in lens performance between various cameras in other systems.

---------- Post added 06-26-2018 at 10:00 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
Yes, that's right. And so there are lenses out there from other brands that are "sharper." But here's the rub. To make lenses "sharper," (i.e., so they do better on resolution tests) manufacturers have to ratchet up the accutance. That causes the lens to render the edges of objects against a background with a very hard edge, which looks unnatural and causes the image as a whole to look flat. The limiteds give up a little bit of measurable resolution to provide a more natural sharpness, one that renders detail in a way that's closer to human perception.

Broadly speaking, lens characteristics can be broken down into two categories: the technical and measurable, and the pictoral and qualitative. Lenses that are high in both technical and pictorial qualities tend to be quite expensive: think Leica. Or they're ridiculously large: think Olympus SHG lenses or the new DFA* primes. The limiteds are high in pictorial qualities, they're compact, and they're relatively affordable (especially when compared to Leica), but the trade-off is they not the best lenses in terms of technical measurable specifications. They're a little less sharp than the best lenses out there and, at least in my experience (with the DA 15, DA 21, and DA 35), they're not all that sharp away from the center at longer distances.
I totally get that. The DA Ltds are really great for the price. No doubt about that. I'm just curious to see how much of a sharpness jump they'd see with higher resolution or different camera sensors. In the one I referenced above, the variable sharpness readings of the same lens on different cameras appears to be corrolated directly to the resolution of the camera.

---------- Post added 06-26-2018 at 10:31 AM ----------

Sony FE 50mm F1.8 on Sony A5000 vs Sony FE 28mm F2 on Sony A5000 vs Pentax HD DA 35mm F2.8 Macro Limited on Pentax K-S1

For further illustration of what I'm interested to see, I've compared two different Sony lenses (50/1.8 & 28/2) that have excellent marks on the A7rii, but tested them on the a5000, which has a similar sensor as the K-s1 (as far as I can tell--20mp aps-c.) When tested on the a5000 those lenses score 19 & 21 respectively. The DA HD 35mm Ltd scores 19 on the K-s1. But when stepped up to the larger, higher resolution sensor on the A7Rii the sony lens scores jump to 37 & 40 respectively. So, my curiosity is to how the Ltds might fare on better sensors. I know that's not offered at the moment, but I'm curious nonetheless.
06-26-2018, 11:22 AM   #176
Veteran Member
audiobomber's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Sudbury, Ontario
Photos: Albums
Posts: 6,806
The K-3 is about as good as it gets for DXOMark APS-C lens scores. There are three things that affect DXOMark sharpness scores:
  • Sensor size (larger sensors score higher, all else being equal)
  • Number of pixels (more pixels = higher resolution, all else being equal)
  • Anti-aliasing (blur) filter. The stronger the blur filter, the lower the sharpness score, all else being equal.

The Overall Score is an unknown combination of measurements. I consider the Overall Score to be DXO's opinion on desirability of a lens, when used on the specified camera. It is a coarse and questionable measure. Even the other scores (sharpness, vignetting, etc) are limited in usefulness. The graphs are much more informative.

Note that DXO does not consider lens rendering or bokeh. What they do provide is useful, but certainly not the final authority on what lens to choose.
06-26-2018, 11:43 AM   #177
Veteran Member




Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Sunny San Diego
Posts: 336
QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
The K-3 is about as good as it gets for DXOMark APS-C lens scores. There are three things that affect DXOMark sharpness scores:
  • Sensor size (larger sensors score higher, all else being equal)
  • Number of pixels (more pixels = higher resolution, all else being equal)
  • Anti-aliasing (blur) filter. The stronger the blur filter, the lower the sharpness score, all else being equal.

The Overall Score is an unknown combination of measurements. I consider the Overall Score to be DXO's opinion on desirability of a lens, when used on the specified camera. It is a coarse and questionable measure. Even the other scores (sharpness, vignetting, etc) are limited in usefulness. The graphs are much more informative.

Note that DXO does not consider lens rendering or bokeh. What they do provide is useful, but certainly not the final authority on what lens to choose.
Yup. I suppose what I'm trying to get at is the sharpness of a lens measured equally. That is, the lens is only evaluated as part of a camera, not in isolation. That makes sense, of course, since lenses are part of an equation, as it were, but having a raw, abstracted number would be helpful. Regarding the rendering/boheh, I completely agree. It's only one part of evaluating whether a lens is the right fit for your needs.

I remember the first time I snapped pics with my 77 Ltd. The rendering blew me away.
06-26-2018, 01:57 PM   #178
Pentaxian
bdery's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Quebec city, Canada
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 9,352
QuoteOriginally posted by neokind Quote
Yup. I suppose what I'm trying to get at is the sharpness of a lens measured equally.
Well, you could use the sharpness tests in the tests here, since they're done in the exact same conditions, so can be compared with one another.
06-26-2018, 02:10 PM   #179
Veteran Member




Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Sunny San Diego
Posts: 336
QuoteOriginally posted by bdery Quote
Well, you could use the sharpness tests in the tests here, since they're done in the exact same conditions, so can be compared with one another.
I'm not sure how that would be any different than using DxOmark's test, which doesn't address my curiosity.

To reiterate, I have a question that DxOmark's test doesn't address (and thus, PF's test does not address.) All I'm expressing is a curiosity about something that isn't currently tested. i.e. The objective sharpness measurement of a lens, irrespective of the camera to which it is connected. This was inspired by observing that sharpness of a lens as measured at DxO is contingent upon the sensor used to test it. I'm not asking anyone to answer this question, only expressing that I'm curious.

Last edited by neokind; 06-26-2018 at 02:16 PM.
06-26-2018, 02:35 PM - 2 Likes   #180
Seeker of Knowledge
Loyal Site Supporter
aslyfox's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Topeka, Kansas
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 24,563
Original Poster
well, my " experienced " smc Pentax DA 35mm F2.8 macro limited arrived today

plan on trying it out tomorrow

scale provided by the usual SMU
Attached Images
View Picture EXIF
PENTAX K-3  Photo 
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
40mm, angle, camera, da, f1.8, f2.8, focus, foreground, k-mount, lens, lenses, limiteds, macros, market, mm, pentax lens, pentax-da, pentax-fa, photography, pk, relationship, reputations, slr lens, smc, speeds, surroundings, view
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Your vehicle: what do you have, why do you like it, and what do you not like? Auzzie-Phoenix General Talk 2978 2 Days Ago 01:01 AM
What do they mean when they say Shake Reduction adds4 stops of performance? normhead Pentax DSLR Discussion 36 02-23-2017 12:11 AM
Who do they think they can sell the 560mm to ??? Luin Gor Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 13 10-05-2012 01:41 AM
FA Limiteds on LX, P30T, or other MF Bodies - Do they work OK? brofkand Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 5 05-18-2012 05:41 PM
DA Limiteds vs. FA Limiteds GregX999 Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 120 08-08-2011 11:09 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:25 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top