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6 Days Ago   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by DeadJohn Quote
There's still no hint of an ultrawide prime or compact wide zoom suitable for full frame.
That's not exactly true:
http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/japan/products/lens/images/K_Mount_Lens.pdf

That's the lens I'm waiting for, by the way, so I'd like to see it sooner rather than later.

6 Days Ago   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
My thing is that I see Pentax as having excellent lenses already, they are just adding a tier on top of that existing excellent lineage.

You have lenses like the DA *55...

FA 31

and yes, even the FA 77

The idea that Pentax should go out deliberately create worse lenses than they already have just doesn't work for me. You have cheap lenses like the DA 35 and DA 50 and mid tier lenses as well.

To me, the only issue is the slow release schedule, but hopefully some of that is fixed as we see actual new glass coming out this year.
Did you mean to quote my post? I said nothing that Pentax should create worse lenses.

---------- Post added 01-10-18 at 10:46 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
That's not exactly true:
http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/japan/products/lens/images/K_Mount_Lens.pdf

That's the lens I'm waiting for, by the way, so I'd like to see it sooner rather than later.
Thanks. Dated October 2017 so it's been there for at least 3 months but I don't remember it. The exact focal length will probably get filled in next year when the 50, 85, and 11-18 (APS-C only) are further along.
6 Days Ago   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by DeadJohn Quote
Did you mean to quote my post? I said nothing that Pentax should create worse lenses.
I know. I guess I was just jumping off on the fact that the DFA * lenses seem polarizing and a lot of folks (not you) are saying that they are too fast, too big, and too sharp. To me that's a good problem to have and if you don't need quite that big and sharp, there are other options out there.

But sorry if I made it sound like you are a nay-sayer.
5 Days Ago   #94
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The beauty of Pentax to me is the aps-c lenses.
A wonderful blend of size, value, build and performance.

Since I'm loving the 20-40ltd a small aps-c 28 2.8 no longer has me wishing.
I'd rather have something like the 35 1.8 Nikon DX.

But, not going to happen so I picked up a 35ltd. I think I'm going to love this one as well.

5 Days Ago   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by DeadJohn Quote
Thanks. Dated October 2017 so it's been there for at least 3 months but I don't remember it. The exact focal length will probably get filled in next year when the 50, 85, and 11-18 (APS-C only) are further along.
It was there since February 2016 - the first roadmap with D FA primes, but as a "large aperture ultra wide-angle" lens. One year later, it became a D FA ultra wide-angle (i.e. losing the "large aperture" designation).
At the same time, the wide angle gained its star and the "large aperture".
3 Days Ago   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by pres589 Quote
I would think a lens in this focal length should be no bigger than the FA*24.

I am not a lens designer and don't pretend to be. But the above mention of scaling a 40mm pancake prime back to a mid-20's focal length prime without big changes in physical size seems... plausible? I mean, Canon did it with the 24mm STM prime as previously mentioned. Why couldn't a Tessar or quasi-Tessar lens arrangement like what's in Pentax's 40's work as a 24 or 26 or 28mm prime?
The MAIN difference between lens designs is the angle of coverage.
A modern Tessar would be small, sharp enough, with good contrast, but would never be a wide angle.
What we call "wide angle" is a lens with large coverage field, the focal is not relevant. I have 210mm wide angle objectives.

I don't see an APS-C 28mm coming anytime soon. Those who want a sharp, small optic have the option of the DA 20-40mm Limited, and those who want a faster prime can either choose the FA Limiteds 31mm or the Sigma Art 30mm, both still available new (i think the inventory is large enough to last some more time).
A 28mm with FF coverage would make more sense, but only if it's a f/1.4.
Asking for a compact 1.4/28mm is like asking for dry water. The size of the front element is related to the max aperture (and to a lesser extent to design), and the length of the objective is depending on the number of elements, the specific register of the mount, and the optical typology (including the choice to have internal focusing, fixed rear element, or the helicoid moving the entire optic back and forth).
The wishes of the customers can't defy physics. Fast and small can't go together, at least with present days (very mature) technologies.

Considering that we have great f/2.8 zooms that almost equal primes, commercially it makes no sense to release primes unless they are both very fast and great performers.
The best old-style Pentax lenses, like the tiny Limiteds, are still available in Ricoh/Pentax catalog.
Considering present availability of OEM (Pentax branded) lenses, what is sorely missing are FF primes. Not APS-C ones.
Ricoh has announced a normal and a short tele, but most K-1 users need wide angles!
A 24mm, a 20mm, and a 17/18mm.
Very good 14/15mm are already available from other makers, and a 28mm would be too close to the 31mm Limited...

In theory, the old 28mm FA would be a a nice candidate for a re-release with fast internal AF motor, HD coating, etc, because it was one of the few consumer optics that were redesigned, instead of inheriting an old, traditional optical project.
Unfortunately I don't see any chance, and I'm quite sure that if it ever happened, it would have a proportionally higher cost than the original. Much higher I'm afraid
3 Days Ago   #97
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Why would a 28mm full frame lens need to be f1.4? Just because Sigma and Samyang have lenses like that?

I never agreed with the OP about the APS-C only aspect of this theoretical lens. The F and FA 28's are pretty small, why not go for full coverage.

From what I've read, and pictures reviewed, the F 28 seems to be the better lens vs. the FA. But I'd take either in a new package. I imagine that an F 28 optic with full modern coatings and rounded aperture blades would be pretty well liked, but it's only ever going to be a theory.

Eh, I should probably go back to ebay, and search for Super-Wide II's some more. That's always fun...
2 Days Ago   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by pres589 Quote
Why would a 28mm full frame lens need to be f1.4? Just because Sigma and Samyang have lenses like that?

I never agreed with the OP about the APS-C only aspect of this theoretical lens. The F and FA 28's are pretty small, why not go for full coverage.

From what I've read, and pictures reviewed, the F 28 seems to be the better lens vs. the FA. But I'd take either in a new package. I imagine that an F 28 optic with full modern coatings and rounded aperture blades would be pretty well liked, but it's only ever going to be a theory.

Eh, I should probably go back to ebay, and search for Super-Wide II's some more. That's always fun...
Because people can't decide on what they want (i.e., welcome to any internet message board). One group vociferously wants such a lens to have FF coverage, while not understanding why the other group vociferously wants such a lens to be lightweight and inexpensive. Each group wonders why their preferences can't reconcile with the other's and balks that they can't have both.

IMO, there is a gap for a fast, "true normal" field of view prime on Pentax APS-C, if you assume the following: 1) many APS-C users use the format because the K-1 costs too much (this rules out the 31mm Ltd for many users and potential users), and 2) many Pentax APS-C users specifically have come to like the compactness that their DA Limiteds offer them (this makes the trade-off of losing FF coverage to gain compactness a logical one for many users).

My take is that FF shooters can use the 31/1.8 Ltd if they want a fast, wide angle prime with FF coverage (and the price wouldn't be so different from other premium FF lenses), but that lens is just too big and expensive for the average APS-C shooter who can get a DA Limited in other focal lengths for half the price and half the weight. I think it would be neat to see a lens like the 43/1.9 Ltd scaled down in focal length and coverage to be a fast 28mm lens that's optimized for APS-C in the same way that the Canon EF 40mm STM was scaled down as the EF-S 24mm STM without any change in bulk. I'm not totally against the OP's idea of a f/2.8 prime if it's the only way to make the lens compact; I just think it's not as simple of an issue as "you can't have a fast pancake below an arbitrary mm focal length"). Maybe I'm just ignorant of lens design, but I haven't seen egineering credentials from any of the nay-sayers either.

2 Days Ago   #99
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^^
Quite exactly my thoughts, Gimbely.
2 Days Ago   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by pres589 Quote
Why would a 28mm full frame lens need to be f1.4? Just because Sigma and Samyang have lenses like that?
No. Because it makes no commercial sense.
There are already zooms (some very small) covering the focal.
At the same time the FF lineup is bleeding for primes...

Let's for one minute forget about the commercial choices of a company that is proceeding at snail's pace.
Let's just think in theory.
It would be nice to have a full line of primes for both formats, like back in the good old times, and it is also possible to design small optics for those who value portability, and fast optics for those who like creamy OOF areas.
Even if we forget that there are huge holes that should be covered first (no soft-focus, no extreme macro, no AF tubes, no FF teleconverter, etc), there are other constraints, that have o do with the basics of physics/optics.
There are good reasons behind the choices made by optical engineers.
Yes, it's true that an old 1.4/50mm is way smaller than a modern one (be it the upcoming DFA, the - discontinued - Sigma, or the Samyang). The reason is that the diameter of the front glass influences vignetting, not just max aperture.
People would laugh at the performance of a modern lens with more or less the same figures of 50 years old optics!

In a few words, (almost) everything is possible, but there are trade-off's.
It's even possible to design a very simple super wide angle with a small front element. A pity it would vignette so much that back in the old times they attached a little whirlwind to the front of the objective, actuated by a rubber hand pump!!
Here it is, from Marco Cavina wonderful site, the Goerz Hypergon:

Hypergon_Topogon_Biogon_Hologon

Or, if you like it simple, here is CameraQuest page:

Hypergon

cheers

Paolo
2 Days Ago   #101
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I'm not sure if people in this thread are sure what they want. Do you want a DA limited between the DA 35 and DA 21 with metal build and slow-ish aperture and a price tag of, say, 600-ish dollars on release? Do you want a plastic fantastic like the DA 35 f2.4 (which is full frame compatible) that isn't a pancake, but is light and pretty small?

I'm not a lens designer, but from what I understand for lenses in this focal length there is not a big difference in size in making them full frame compatible and making them APS-C only -- assuming the same max aperture, build quality, and registration distance. How much smaller would a DA 31 limited be than the FA limited, assuming a max aperture of f1.8? Not much, I'm guessing. The reason the FA 31 is "big" (which it isn't really) is because it has a max aperture of f1.8, not because it is full frame compatible.
2 Days Ago   #102
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Here are the Survey Results as promised:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3dqhvlvpvgcjz5x/HD%20DA%2028%20f%3A2.8%20Survey%20Results.pdf?dl=0

Last edited by Saltwater Images; 1 Day Ago at 04:27 PM. Reason: New link
1 Day Ago   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Do you want a DA limited between the DA 35 and DA 21 with metal build and slow-ish aperture and a price tag of, say, 600-ish dollars on release? Do you want a plastic fantastic like the DA 35 f2.4 (which is full frame compatible) that isn't a pancake, but is light and pretty small?
Either/both A 600$-ish 28 ltd might be welcomed by many who can't afford the 31 (it would enter the realm of my long-term savings possibilities). A plastic fantastic would be welcomed by those who couldn't afford a ltd (I'd jump on it immediately). And either one would be a modern complement to my M28 3.5 (which is a keeper). I'm happy with legacy glass, but I also appreciate the different rendering of modern glass.

I am in no hurry, Ricoh/Pentax are doing what they need to do, I am sure
1 Day Ago   #104
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Here's a text summary if you don't want to view the brilliantly coloured charts in the survey results.

Q1 - ARE YOU A PRIME LENS SHOOTER?
* 96% of Survey respondents were prime lens shooters.
* 98% of Survey respondents would be prime lens shooters by the end of 2018.

Q2 - DO YOU HAVE ANY PENTAX LIMITED LENSES?
* 74% of Survey respondents had DA (APS-C) prime lenses.
This speaks volumes when 2015 CIPA (Camera & Imaging Products Association) indicates that globally 36% of full frame shooters have prime lenses and only 6% of crop sensor shooters own fixed focal length lenses. This leads me to believe that continuing to develop APS-C prime lenses is essential to long-term Pentax brand health.

Q3 - WHAT PENTAX DIGITAL FORMATS DO YOU SHOOT?
* 64% of survey respondents used only the crop sensor format at present.
* 80% of survey respondents owned an APS-C Pentax camera.
It was little surprise that APS-C dominated user ownership given that the brand has long been producing value packed crop sensor cameras and that the K-1 is still a realitively new platform.

Q4 - IF PENTAX CREATED A HD DA 28mm f/2.8 LIMITED LENS (WHICH WOULD OFFER A TRUE NORMAL 42mm FIELD OF VIEW ON APS-C) WOULD YOU BUY IT?
* 46% of survey respondents would either buy or seriously consider buying a HD DA 28 f/2.8.
* Only 24% of survey respondents wouldn’t be interested in such a lens.
Given that we are discussing only a single focal length lens, some level of interest among respondents seemed very high. In a global market where only 6% APS-C shooters across all brands have a prime lens - the interest level is considerably high. There is no question that high quality DA prime lenses are one of the strengths of the Pentax lineup.

Q5 - WHAT WOULD BE A REASONABLE PRICE FOR A HD DA 28 f/2.8 LENS?
* 38% of respondents didn’t know what would be a reasonable price for a HD DA 28 f/2.8 Limited lens.
* 58% of respondents were comfortable with a price between $499 and $549 USD.

CONCLUSION
This survey was completed by a small socially active cross section of Pentax shooters, the majority of which shoot APS-C. The Pentax Forums thread at times turned into an APS-C versus Full Frame debate which was never the intent.

Full Frame shooters have access to the FA Limited line which provide a faster maximum aperture for their much higher premium price. No question, the FA Limited line could use updates; adding quick shift, more modern coatings and WR would benefit the FA Limited series.

APS-C is a viable camera segment that will continue to capture many more users with a lower cost of entry and more compact system for hobby and travel photographers. THE DA Limited Line sacrifices a large maximum aperture in favor of compact size and a reasonably fast aperture. Improvements in low-light gathering with APS-C sensors fit well with this design philosophy. There seems to be a considerable level of interest for a 28mm pancake in the Pentax lens ecosystem among survey respondents (although this was a small audience sample).

The survey and Pentax Forums thread seem to indicate that to be successful a HD DA 28 f/2.8 Limited lens would need to be:
* A compact lens, perhaps no larger than the HD DA 35 or HD DA 15.
* WR - this would give the lens a greater appeal as none of the other HD DA Limited primes have WR.
* Optically in line with the image quality provided by other HD DA Limited lenses.

Survey results: https://www.dropbox.com/s/3dqhvlvpvgcjz5x/HD%20DA%2028%20f%3A2.8%20Survey%20Results.pdf?dl=0

Last edited by Saltwater Images; 1 Day Ago at 04:27 PM. Reason: Cleaned up
1 Day Ago   #105
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Thanks for your time in creating the survey. I'm a bit surprised by the way this thread turned though I understand the desire for 24mm if not the fast aperture.
I see that people want a large difference from the capable zooms at large or in their armouries.
This necessarilly means large and heavy, like their zooms so the low light and corner performance are the only reason to buy. Perhaps I am not searching out those types of image to see the possibilities that the more advanced users are aware of, and want that.
It must be a headache for Ricoh marketing.
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