[Gedeon]

You do realize that very few pros actually buy "pro equipment" and that the vast majority of "pro" equipment is bought by amateurs, right? Had you said that the buyers of munade equipment provided the cash flow for companies to develop the equipment that well heeled amateurs use, you would be correct.
Nothing has changed in the camera industry in this regard for the last several decades. For all intents and purposes, the entire photographic industry, from the camera phone to the top of the line digital camera is driven by amateurs. From a buyers point of view, professional photographers may as well not exist. No one in the camera industry would notice if they didn't exist at all. That is how small a market the pro market is.

so true ! perfect analysis

We forum members shoot Pentaxes here, not Leicas, for several reasons, and money would be a biggie.

no "leicaists" here, but neither are we hardcore users of "20 €" casio, vivitar or pixus DSLR....
as much it would be no wonder that a guy with a D5 bought a 600mm for 12000€, or a zeiss otus 28mm for 5000€, as much I do not find anything extraordinary that the owner of a K-1 may consider buying a 400mm f5.6 to..... let's go crazy , 1800€ ?

[Gimbeley]

1. 8 Billion amateur photographers on the planet
2. A few million professional photographers on the planet
3. Doesn’t matter how you define pro equipment, by law of large numbers amateurs buy almost all of it

And according to your "law of large numbers," do tell me what percentage of the 1.3 billion people living in India (India's GDP per capita is $1,989, in case you didn't know that) are buying up Canon Mark IV's. Is it ninety or ninety-five percent of them?

You do realize that you've taken an irrational position, right? Actually, it's not just irrational, it's completely insane.

I don’t need to. You can believe my experience or not. Frankly, I don’t care one way or the other.

Who are you trying to fool? If you didn't care, you wouldn't have replied.

[beholder3]

To add some perspective:
Germany has about 80 million citizens.
Due to laws here pretty much any "pro" has to register as such (including any part timers who do not live off it completely; anyone who wants to make some money) at a certain organisation.
In 2015 there were 14,397 such pros (https://www.zdh-statistik.de/application/load_doc.php?datei=20171101145921_B...B1_HW_2015.xls).
Now let's be optimistic and assume a pro replaces his camera every 3 years on average. That makes for about 5,000 cameras of all types sold to pros per annum.
Total annual German ILC unit sales were about 1,260,000 in 2014.
(source: Deutscher Kameramarkt in Zahlen: Weniger DSLR, mehr Spiegellose | c't Fotografie)
That leaves less than 0,5% to pros.

[Gimbeley]

To add some perspective:
Germany has about 80 million citizens.
Due to laws here pretty much any "pro" has to register as such (including any part timers who do not live off it completely; anyone who wants to make some money) at a certain organisation.
In 2015 there were 21,000 such pros.
Now let's be optimistic and assume a pro replaces his camera every 3 years on average. That makes for about 7,000 cameras of all types sold to pros per annum.
Total annual German ILC unit sales were about 950,000.
That leaves less than 1% to pros.

Sources for any of these numbers?

[beholder3]

Sources added and numbers corrected.

[Gimbeley]

To add some perspective:
Germany has about 80 million citizens.
Due to laws here pretty much any "pro" has to register as such (including any part timers who do not live off it completely; anyone who wants to make some money) at a certain organisation.
In 2015 there were 14,397 such pros (https://www.zdh-statistik.de/application/load_doc.php?datei=20171101145921_B...B1_HW_2015.xls).
Now let's be optimistic and assume a pro replaces his camera every 3 years on average. That makes for about 5,000 cameras of all types sold to pros per annum.
Total annual German ILC unit sales were about 1,260,000 in 2014.
(source: Deutscher Kameramarkt in Zahlen: Weniger DSLR, mehr Spiegellose | c't Fotografie)
That leaves less than 0,5% to pros.

Why do you think pros only have one camera each? Why think they buy a new camera only that often? Why are you equating a single ILC sale with the concept of professional camera equipment? Does owning a Rebel make one an owner of professional camera equipment?The conversation originally started when one person saw an amateur in the park with a 5D Mark IV and extrapolated this to mean that most amateurs buy 5D Mark IV's. Is that what you're talking about, or are you making a different claim? How do you define amateur photographer? Because if you're trying to say that all 80 million people in Germany are amateur photographers, then your definition pointlessly overlaps with the concept of "living," and we're going to need a new definition for this conversation.

[monochrome]

Cite the foundation for your position, Padawan.

Oh WTH. I think it is time to preemptively de-view young @Gimbeley.

[beholder3]

you think

Dear Gimbeley,

this is an internet forum. People argue their view there. Some are convincing, some are not. I shared some facts and some interpretation, which absolutely support:

From a buyers point of view, professional photographers may as well not exist. No one in the camera industry would notice if they didn't exist at all. That is how small a market the pro market is.

You claim that it's completely different. Try to convince us of your claims using better sources. Readers then will judge if they believe Wheatfield and me or you. It is that simple.

Current number of your arguments beyond personal "experience" claims is: Zero.
Current number of sources given by you is: Zero.
That obviously nets you credibility: Zero.

You have quite some catching up to do.

Back to topic:
I do believe that having a bunch of flagship professional photographers on your paylist helps marketing and advertising. I think Kenspo is a fine example where poeple can see someone taking so good photos and then think that buying the same equipment is not a bad idea and so he is adding a lot of value add here. But that a different story from purchasing effects.

So to make a point: I strongly believe that scientifically judging by statistical ownership (if anyone could look at actual data) even the top price snapshot machines 1DXII and D5 and A9 are wholeheartedly "amateur cameras". Not for Joe, the plumber but for James, the dentist.

[bdery]

here I created a little inofficial survey that helps collect peoples view:

Great work on the survey! If I was a Pentax executive, I'd be calling a meeting of the top oils right now...

It's amazing how the 85mm and 20-24mm ranges dominate the interest of users. Also, how much WR is a requirement for almost all users.

(I'm more than willing to compromise on fast apertures, but I want optical excellence wide open - no, ultra compact designs aren't)

So, like me, you like the idea of the DA Limited and want it extended to FF.

I would love to see a FF lens from 20-24mm. I would give up a little bit of size for optics and 2.8 aperture.

Amen to that.

[Kunzite]

So, like me, you like the idea of the DA Limited and want it extended to FF.

Not exactly. With FF, I'd like less prioritization of size and more on optics, WR and reasonably fast in-lens AF motors.

[Wheatfield]

Why do you think pros only have one camera each? Why think they buy a new camera only that often? Why are you equating a single ILC sale with the concept of professional camera equipment? Does owning a Rebel make one an owner of professional camera equipment?The conversation originally started when one person saw an amateur in the park with a 5D Mark IV and extrapolated this to mean that most amateurs buy 5D Mark IV's. Is that what you're talking about, or are you making a different claim? How do you define amateur photographer? Because if you're trying to say that all 80 million people in Germany are amateur photographers, then your definition pointlessly overlaps with the concept of "living," and we're going to need a new definition for this conversation.

Actually, at this point, we need people to stop being argumentative for the sake of arguing. You were given an accurate example of camera sales compared to the size of the pro market in a sample region. If you can't accept the facts given, why don't you come up with a fact based rebuttal rather than this rather trollish moving of the goal posts?
Please, use real facts, not alternate facts.

---------- Post added 02-01-18 at 08:16 AM ----------

Dear Gimbeley,

this is an internet forum. People argue their view there. Some are convincing, some are not. I shared some facts and some interpretation, which absolutely support:



You claim that it's completely different. Try to convince us of your claims using better sources. Readers then will judge if they believe Wheatfield and me or you. It is that simple.

Current number of your arguments beyond personal "experience" claims is: Zero.
Current number of sources given by you is: Zero.
That obviously nets you credibility: Zero.

You have quite some catching up to do.

Germany has about 80 million citizens.
Due to laws here pretty much any "pro" has to register as such (including any part timers who do not live off it completely; anyone who wants to make some money) at a certain organisation.
In 2015 there were 14,397 such pros (https://www.zdh-statistik.de/application/load_doc.php?datei=20171101145921_B...B1_HW_2015.xls).
Now let's be optimistic and assume a pro replaces his camera every 3 years on average. That makes for about 5,000 cameras of all types sold to pros per annum.
Total annual German ILC unit sales were about 1,260,000 in 2014.
(source: Deutscher Kameramarkt in Zahlen: Weniger DSLR, mehr Spiegellose | c't Fotografie)
That leaves less than 0,5% to pros.

Read more at: Pentax prime lens wishlist survey 2018 - Page 3 - PentaxForums.com

What catching up? You told me I was correct in one post, and then told me I was not credible in the next. Are you for real?

Back to topic:
I do believe that having a bunch of flagship professional photographers on your paylist helps marketing and advertising. I think Kenspo is a fine example where poeple can see someone taking so good photos and then think that buying the same equipment is not a bad idea and so he is adding a lot of value add here. But that a different story from purchasing effects.

So to make a point: I strongly believe that scientifically judging by statistical ownership (if anyone could look at actual data) even the top price snapshot machines 1DXII and D5 and A9 are wholeheartedly "amateur cameras". Not for Joe, the plumber but for James, the dentist.

[normhead]

Why do you think pros only have one camera each?

Why do you think amateurs have only one camera each? I've known a working pro with his own studio for portraits , passport photos weddings etc. who's only camera was a K10D, because he had 4 kids and anything he spent on cameras didn't go to his kids (who got my old baseball stuff and anything else I thought they might use.) I've known amateur collectors who own 40 cameras. Life is weird.

[BarryE]

Do I detect a little topic drift ? It started off as an interesting survey that has now wandered off into a rather pointless argument. The good bits are being drowned out by this noise. Do, please, let us know when its returned to civility and is back on topic ...

[normhead]

Do I detect a little topic drift ? It started off as an interesting survey that has now wandered off into a rather pointless argument. The good bits are being drowned out by this noise. Do, please, let us know when its returned to civility and is back on topic ...

Those numbers on the number of photographers who are actually pros, are really good, unfortunately, when you come up with really good numbers, anyone who thought differently goes into attack mode. That's just the way people are.

[Gedeon]

It's amazing how the 85mm and 20-24mm ranges dominate the interest of users.

Do not be so excited. Behind the numbers, hide other figures. Appearances do not correspond to reality. Only Beholder3 holds the details and can restrain some untimely statements. Someone who voted for a 20mm, maybe have only 10 euros to put in it. Then relativize : the truth is elsewhere, and the prophet only holds the tablets of laws.