[monochrome]

The whole thing about the 400/5.6 is mainly my fault as I did omit to mention a realistic price for it. So everyone can click on it and assume "oh it has to be priced at $400". In the next poll I'll do better and mention a realistic price of about 1600 EUR (the 13 year old design of the one comparable lens was introduced at 1200 EUR and we all know about the thing called inflation and the general lens price developments).
Let's see how popular it is at non-fantasy-price and after deleting all answers which at the same have have said they wont pay more than $1000 for the next lens.
It is far too easy to cry for the $300 8-600mm F1.4 lenses with perfect optical performance which weigh nothing and fit into the pocket.

.@beholder3 This is a really interesting idea and a good and useful effort. I think a very real conflict in the Survey structure is the top-level $1,000 EUR/USD purchase limit; followed by lens selection choices downstream.

1. I really want a good three lens set of f/4 FF zooms, but I don’t know that I would pay $1,000 for any one of them. $700 - $800? Maybe.
2. I surely wouldn’t pay +$1,000 for a fast 50, even if I wanted one.
3. I surely wouldn’t pay +$1,000 for a fast 35 when the FA35/2 is in the catalog for $250 and the Fa31 is less than $900.
4. By the time we get to long primes it is entirely possible to have forgotten the $1,000 limit altogether and just answer, “Me want!” I’m not sure, but I might actually buy a enthusiast grade 400/5.6 at some price north of $1,000, but certainly not a white paint *400/2.8 at *price. (yes, I realize you took a stab at pricing the high-dollar lenses). I don’t sell or post images. I print to 11x14 on a PixmaPro for myself and gifts.

It is a challenge to draw second order conclusions from the questionnaire.

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Last edited by monochrome; 01-31-2018 at 11:42 AM.

[builttospill]

$10k CAD for shots of a kid playing soccer? What's a good 100-300mm f4 zoom going for these days up there? Wouldn't that, on a consumer level crop body, more than get that job done?

People are crazy.

People are crazy. But Pentax and other camera-makers have long-known soccer moms will typically spend more than the pros. Also, there are more soccer moms than pros. Because of this, the needs of soccer moms, hobbyists, and weekend warriors drive most the decisions made by R&D.

[normhead]

People are crazy. But Pentax and other camera-makers have long-known soccer moms will typically spend more than the pros. Also, there are more soccer moms than pros. Because of this, the needs of soccer moms, hobbyists, and weekend warriors drive most the decisions made by R&D.

And Canon is bigger than Pentax, meaning the camera store guy can max out the credit cards of even the richest. Could he have even sold the woman in question $10,000 of Pentax gear. You have to be a big camera company to take advantage of opportunities like that. And that helps them maintain their position as big camera companies.

Pentax is simply not positioned, anywhere in the world but Japan, to take advantage of impulse buyers with $10,000 to spend. From Pentax, she could have had at best a K-70 with a 150-450, and the 150-450 would have had to have been ordered. She wouldn't have been able to try it out. Pentax has cut impulse buyers out of the loop.

[beholder3]

.@beholder3 This is a really interesting idea and a good and useful effort. I think a very real conflict in the Survey structure is the top-level $1,000 EUR/USD purchase limit; followed by lens selection choices downstream.
...
It is a challenge to draw second order conclusions from the questionnaire.

Yes. I'll make it much more clear that respondents should remember their answer to the budget question next time and explicitly ask to only select lenses for which you are willing to pay the listed price.
And I have put prices against each item now (see below).

The prices I chose were derived like this (pretty consistent):

1. For lenses which have OEM samples I looked up the initial (historical) price here: Preisentwicklung für Canon EF 400mm 2.8 L IS II USM weiß (4412B005) (90 Tage) | heise online Preisvergleich / Deutschland
2. Sometimes adjusted those for some inflationary effects
3. I preferred the newest models over older ones (that is why the 35/2 is referencing the latest canon)
4. where there was no OEM I looked for 3rd party intro prices in above source and added +40%
5. for stuff that still had no real world reference I just tried to find something realistic, e.g. for revamped FA limited I just added +25% to current street prices

Generally this obviously is no exact science but I believe the numbers are pretty realistic now (sadly, as it is just so much money).

At the time of writing USD / EUR is roughly about 1,20 : 1,00 (actually 1,24:1) and the prices referenced include 19% VAT, so as a rule of thumb people can ignore the currency and think of it as either USD or EUR.

With the exception of redone APSC lenses with faster drives I will not go into feature level differentiation, e.g. "I would pay a million if the lens was half the weight". Generally it is image circle, focal length and aperture only.

Here is the current working list:

Code:

FF 12 mm F2,8 at about 1500 EUR
FF 12 mm F4 at about 1000 EUR
FF 14 mm F2,8 at about 1900 EUR
FF 14 mm F4 at about 1400 EUR
FF 16 mm F2,8 at about 1500 EUR
FF 16 mm F4 at about 1000 EUR
FF 20 mm F1,4 at about 1400 EUR
FF 20 mm F1,8 at about 820 EUR
FF 20 mm F2 at about 800 EUR
FF 20 mm F2,8 at about 690 EUR
FF 20 mm F4 at about 500 EUR
FF 24 mm F1,4 at about 1400 EUR
FF 24 mm F1,8 at about 1200 EUR
FF 24 mm F2 at about 1000 EUR
FF 24 mm F2,8 at about 800 EUR
FF 24 mm F4 at about 600 EUR
FF 28 mm F1,4 at about 2400 EUR
FF 28 mm F1,8 at about 1100 EUR
FF 28 mm F2 at about 900 EUR
FF 28 mm F2,8 at about 790 EUR
FF 28 mm F4 at about 600 EUR
FF 35 mm F1,4 at about 2050 EUR
FF 35 mm F1,8 at about 580 EUR
FF 35 mm F2 at about 850 EUR
FF 35 mm F2,8 at about 600 EUR
FF 50 mm F1,4 at about 1800 EUR
FF 50 mm F1,8 at about 300 EUR
FF 50 mm F2 (cheap build) at about 100 EUR
FF 50 mm F2,8 at about 100 EUR
FF 85 mm F1,4 at about 1650 EUR
FF 85 mm F1,8 (modest quality build / optics) at about 550 EUR
FF 85 mm F2 at about 500 EUR
FF 85 mm F2,8 at about 400 EUR
FF 100 mm F1,4 at about 2400 EUR
FF 100 mm F1,8 at about 1800 EUR
FF 100 mm F2 at about 580 EUR
FF 100 mm F2,8 at about 520 EUR
FF 135 mm F1,8 at about 1600 EUR
FF 135 mm F2 at about 1350 EUR
FF 135 mm F2,8 at about 800 EUR
FF 200 mm F2 at about 5700 EUR
FF 200 mm F2,8 at about 980 EUR
FF 300 mm F2,8 at about 6000 EUR
FF 300 mm F4 at about 1800 EUR
FF 400 mm F2,8 at about 10000 EUR
FF 400 mm F4 at about 6500 EUR
FF 400 mm F5,6 at about 1600 EUR
FF 500 mm F4 at about 11000 EUR
FF 500 mm F5,6 at about 6000 EUR
FF 600 mm F4 at about 11000 EUR
FF 600 mm F5,6 at about 6000 EUR
FF 77mm F1.8 limited DC WR at about 1250 EUR
FF 43mm F1.9 limited DC WR at about 1000 EUR
FF 31mm F1.8 limited DC WR at about 1600 EUR
APSC 15mm F4 limited DC WR at about 700 EUR
FF 100mm F2.8 limited macro DC WR at about 800 EUR
APSC 21mm F3.2 limited DC WR at about 800 EUR
FF 8-15mm F4 Fisheye at about 1330 EUR
FF 11-24mm F4 at about 3000 EUR
FF 12-24mm F4 at about 2000 EUR
FF 16-35mm F4 at about 1350 EUR
FF 18-35mm F3.5-4.5 (moderate quality) at about 750 EUR
FF 20-35mm F4 at about 950 EUR
FF 24-35mm F2 at about 1540 EUR
FF 24-70mm F4 at about 1460 EUR
FF 24-85mm F3.5-4.5 at about 600 EUR
FF 24-105mm F4 at about 1350 EUR
FF 28-135mm F4 at about 1500 EUR
FF 28-70 F3.5-5.6 at about 500 EUR
FF 28-75mm F2.8 at about 800 EUR
FF 28-300mm F3.5-5.6 (high quality) at about 2290 EUR
FF 28-300mm F3.5-5.6 (moderate quality) at about 1000 EUR
FF 28-300mm F3.5-6.3 at about 1020 EUR
FF 35-140mm F4 at about 1350 EUR
FF 70-200mm F4 at about 1400 EUR
FF 70-300mm F4-5.6 (high quality) at about 1430 EUR
FF 70-300mm F4-5.6 (moderate quality) at about 580 EUR
FF 100-300mm 4.0 at about 1.500 EUR
FF 120-300mm F2.8 at about 5600 EUR
FF 150-600mm F5-6.3 at about 1820 EUR
FF 200-400mm 4.0 at about 3.000€
FF 200-500mm F5.6 at about 1600 EUR
FF 17mm F4 T/S at about 2400 EUR
FF 19mm F4 T/S at about 4000 EUR
FF 24mm F3.5 T/S at about 2100 EUR
FF 45mm F2.8 T/S at about 1800 EUR
FF 85mm F2.8 T/S at about 1550 EUR
FF 90mm F2.8 T/S at about 1700 EUR
FF 135mm F4 T/S Macro at about 2600 EUR
FF 180mm F3.5 Macro at about 2200 EUR
FF 200mm F4 Macro at about 1800 EUR
FF TC x1,4 at about 480 EUR
FF TC x1,7 at about 480 EUR
FF TC x2,0 at about 480 EUR
APSC 14-20mm F2 at about 1400 EUR
APSC 16-50/55mm F2.8 Ring-SDM at about 1200 EUR
APSC 16-80mm F2.8-4 at about 1200 EUR
APSC 50-135mm F2.8 Ring-SDM at about 1150 EUR
APSC 70-200mm 2.8 at about 1300 EUR
APSC 150-300mm 4.0 at about 2000 EUR

[pres589]

The kit I put together in my head for such a situation, trying to be actually non-crazy, would be a KP, the Tamron 17-50, the Tamron 70-200, DA 50 1.8, and Pentax HD 1.4 TC. Not even half what she spent. But even still, most camera shops, even if they carry Pentax aren't going to have at least one of those items on hand to show off. I don't think even the flagship B&H store in NYC would have that Tamron 70-200 in store to try out. Last time I asked to try out a lens, I asked to see what the 40XS was like, and the guy behind the counter acted like he had discovered a gold nugget when he pulled it up on screen. And they didn't have one, so I tried the DA 40 Ltd. instead.

[Gimbeley]

People are crazy. But Pentax and other camera-makers have long-known soccer moms will typically spend more than the pros. Also, there are more soccer moms than pros. Because of this, the needs of soccer moms, hobbyists, and weekend warriors drive most the decisions made by R&D.

Uh.... Not so sure about that, builttospill. Maybe single people who are more interested in their hobbies than in dating (of which I should include myself ), but I never knew a so-called soccer mom (or dad) who owned a lot of expensive hobby gear.

[builttospill]

Pentax has cut impulse buyers out of the loop.

I agree the bigger comapnies are the only ones who can do this in-store, but I'm not sure Pentax has a lot of impulse buyers. Think of the reasons why you chose the brand. Most I know who invest in Pentax do their research, which leads them to our brand. Impulse buyers go with Canon or Nikon simply because of the name, an ad they saw, or because the uneducated clerk pushes the product. Pentax has many unique advantages, and researchers discover this.

Uh.... Not so sure about that, builttospill. Maybe single people who are more interested in their hobbies than in dating (of which I should include myself ), but I never knew a so-called soccer mom (or dad) who owned a lot of expensive hobby gear.

I have expensive hobbies. Over a decade ago I set up a business account for my photography hobby because I knew my wife wouldn't allow me to buy expensive lenses with our joint account. Instead, I set up my hobby to pay for itself, never needing to ask my wife if I could buy a lens. Quickly my photography hobby started to pay for other expensive hobbies too (like my extensive gun collection and shooting -- I like things that shoot, guns and cameras). Several years ago my photography hobby turned into my family's full-time income and was more than a hobby.

At any sporting event I attend, I see the moms carrying the 5D mk iv with a crappy super zoom attached. They never upgrade the lens, and their cameras are set to auto mode, but they paid a premium for the "best" equipment and wonder why their photos don't look much better than the old point-and-shoot they used. Or they are happy with the pictures because ignorance is bliss...

[normhead]

Of the 50 or so photographers shooting with 10,000 worth of gear or more I've met in the park over the last few years with really expensive gear, 3 were working pros and only two were actually working at their jobs while using that gear in the park. And both were actually working for the park. I see a lot of groups from Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa wherever being taken out by experienced park photographers on day trips or overnights. This it would seem, would be the new way to make an income from your photography.

The others were people with a lot of money and time. By my rough poll that's 6% pros, 94% amateurs.

At any sporting event I attend, I see the moms carrying the 5D mk iv

I met one of those in the park. Brand new MkiV, crappy lens, didn't understand why her pictures were the way they were. But excited to be out shooting, so that's the main thing.

[monochrome]

There are 11,000 High Schools in the United States and quite a large number of them own high-end photo gear for Journalism. I see half a dozen 400-600mm student lenses on monopods at HS minor sports games like Lacrosse and Tennis, not mentioning the SI level sideline lineup with PJ Passes for Football. Canon owns that market now. K1000 went in the closet once the government started buying Mac’s and PS for schools.

Moms stay in the stands and take short videos with Sony MILC’s, zooms and hooded LCD’s. That’s where the insane gear spending is done now. That’s the signaling toy - an A7R.

Little kids soccer is just iPhone snaps of post game huddles. Family snaps are mostly Insta-Phone, with the occasional 7D and 24-70L Wi-Fi’ed to phone and shared to iCloud servers

[BarryE]

As Monochrome said 1. I really want a good three lens set of f/4 FF zooms.

My guess is, if they were quality lenses (dreaming of DFA* versions), they would be very popular, but probably detrimental to the f2.8 set, now.

What might have happened if the K-1 had been released with a set of f4 DFA* instead of the f2.8 set ? I wonder how many pros, saw the K-1 and the f2.8s swung them to Pentax. Whereas, I reckon a set of f4s at the time of the K-1's release would have bought some non-Pentax over to our side. Later introducing the f2.8 when Ricoh have got the pro-support working. After the f4 set, start to introduce some interesting primes, not necessarily the supposedly-must-haves (eg not fast modern 50) and then the FF line would feel better aimed at the market most likely buying into it, eg the enthusiast and semi-pro (and occasional soccer-mums, whatever they are ;-) )

I would love the choice to go out with a quality f4 zoom and a few primes to back up the zoom. Next outing, a different f4 zoom and different primes. Perfect ... But then I'm not a marketer, just a mere consumer ...

[normhead]

There are 11,000 High Schools in the United States and quite a large number of them own high-end photo gear for Journalism. I see half a dozen 400-600mm student lenses on monopods at HS minor sports games like Lacrosse and Tennis, not mentioning the SI level sideline lineup with PJ Passes for Football. Canon owns that market now. K1000 went in the closet once the government started buying Mac’s and PS for schools.

Moms stay in the stands and take short videos with Sony MILC’s, zooms and hooded LCD’s. That’s where the insane gear spending is done now. That’s the signaling toy - an A7R.

Little kids soccer is just iPhone snaps of post game huddles. Family snaps are mostly Insta-Phone, with the occasional 7D and 24-70L Wi-Fi’ed to phone and shared to iCloud servers

Ya, that thappened. Since the course was changed from "photography" to Communications Tech, our K-1000 images were scanned. The digital cameras had to bet reserved days in advance, assignments were handed in in HTML format that I could mark from my web browser. I had to teach HTML anyway, killing two birds with one stone.

They got marked on their photography, they got marked on their HTML, in the same assignment. The only thing that got it's own time with nothing else added in was drafting. I couldn't figure out how to work drafting into the rest of Communications Tech, which also included desktop publishing and video. Everything else flowed together. Drafting ended up being a 6 week unit that stood on it's own.

Our text book was from the U.S. so i suspect many U.S. programs went the same way.

[redrockcoulee]

I have all the lenses I need for my K01, K50 and K3

I feel the same with my K01, K5iis, Hasselblad and 4X5. Maybe one more for my Whole Plate camera. I do find it interesting in what others want or need. And they are the ones that keep the companies running

[builttospill]

Our text book was from the U.S. so i suspect many U.S. programs went the same way.

I would expect curriculum to be mandated at the provincial-level there. Here it's up to the states to determine public schools' programs.

Does Ontario still have an optional grade 13?

[clackers]

There are no numbers existing, because since many many years there's no modern 600mm f/4 available.

But there are numbers - such a thing did not make top twenty of the survey respondents.

So, your individual desire isn't matched by other buyers.

I also have one 150-500 Sigma lens. Not bad, but... slow.

So you see my point. If someone jumped brand to get a Tamron or Sigma 150-600mm, they're getting a lousy f6.3. It's not worth it.

If they jump brand, it ought to be to get a real $10,000 lens. That rules out just about everyone. We forum members shoot Pentaxes here, not Leicas, for several reasons, and money would be a biggie.

Nothing against the mentioned lenses. But frankly, I can imagine many situations in which the amount of OK shots will be close to zero, just because of limited reach or being too slow.

Of course, Zzeitg. I go out and shoot with what I can afford and actually own, not what I wished I had. Isn't that true of everybody?

[clackers]

I'm not sure what you are replying to. Your response doesn't seem to have much to do with the post you quoted.

Price sensitive customers vs premium buyers, Wheatfield, and their respective contributions to a company's profits. It's what we were talking about.