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01-30-2018, 01:07 PM - 1 Like   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by BrianR Quote
I tried, but I couldn't come up with 3 lenses on your list that I wanted so I couldn't complete the survey.

I really only want one more prime at this point (200mm f/4 macro) which isn't on your list. I managed to force myself to want two others, but two wasn't enough. The survey won't accept less than three...

I guess I don't have LBA. I must need help
We keep a group of competent therapists on call, who can issue little blue pills specifically for that problem.

01-30-2018, 01:31 PM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
24-70 users have been hoodwinked
By Tamron!
01-30-2018, 01:34 PM - 1 Like   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
By Tamron!
I looked at what Canon and Nikon have to offer in that range, the Tamron is comparable. That makes the DFA 28-105 a steal.

The Sony FE 24-70mm f/2.8 GM is a step lower. Surprising given the size of the sucker.
01-30-2018, 01:45 PM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
the DFA 28-105 a steal.
I got a little discount but dont feel guilty of stealing!

01-30-2018, 03:20 PM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I was shooting next to a Nikon shooter with one yesterday. He had a 1.4 on it too. Imagine 840 ƒ5.6. I was shooting 420 ƒ4. I was at a distinct disadvantage in this particular situation. He was also really quick picking out the birds, he was taking a couple shots then stopping to point out for me where they were, nice guy. When you're shooting at a site with big feeders and you are interested in 4 birds out of hundreds, that's an important skill,
Yeah, I took some shots last year with a D810 and 600mm f4. Just pressed the button, the guy had already set it up pointing at a Tawny Frogmouth nest in the car park. For the rest of the walk, he plodded behind us with all that on a tripod over his shoulder. I had a K-S2, 300mm f4.5 and 1.4TC.

The cost, the weight, the inconvenience - that gentleman thought it was all worth it for the picture quality.

I think we're going to see even less of these things in the future. The magazines that employed staffers to take sports or wildlife pics have gone broke, newspapers and websites won't commission freelancers but instead buy photos for a piece from agencies like Reuters or stock.

Some people did pay $15,000 for a lens if they thought they'd get it back in jobs or photo sales, it isn't true anymore.

Any of us who are thinking of quitting our day jobs and becoming long lens togs really need to reconsider.
01-30-2018, 03:31 PM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Any of us who are thinking of quitting our day jobs and becoming long lens togs really need to reconsider.
Steve the park biologist told me 10 years ago they paid $250 an image for images for park brochures, slideshows and presentations etc. Now people donate the images for nothing other than the photo credit. That doesn't help pay for those lenses. The lenses have gotten more expensive and what you can make has been reduced to very little.

There seem to be a lot of old geezers that have a lot of money and time. They aren't buying lenses for the money they can make with them, but for the enjoyment they can get out of them.
01-30-2018, 03:44 PM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Yeah, I took some shots last year with a D810 and 600mm f4. Just pressed the button, the guy had already set it up pointing at a Tawny Frogmouth nest in the car park. For the rest of the walk, he plodded behind us with all that on a tripod over his shoulder. I had a K-S2, 300mm f4.5 and 1.4TC.


600mm f4, that does not sound like a walkaround lens.

The cost, the weight, the inconvenience - that gentleman thought it was all worth it for the picture quality.

I think we're going to see even less of these things in the future. The magazines that employed staffers to take sports or wildlife pics have gone broke, newspapers and websites won't commission freelancers but instead buy photos for a piece from agencies like Reuters or stock.

Some people did pay $15,000 for a lens if they thought they'd get it back in jobs or photo sales, it isn't true anymore.

Any of us who are thinking of quitting our day jobs and becoming long lens togs really need to reconsider.


600mm f4, that does not sound like a walkaround lens. However, every stop of light counts. Some of us are prepared to pay the price for longer reach and faster telephoto, some aren't.
As a guy who remains loyal to the Pentax brand, I can only say that my preference is to maintain one camera system only (I don't want to flirt with Canikon just because of absence of long telephoto prime (either from Pentax or from any third-party brand)).

01-30-2018, 04:37 PM - 1 Like   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by zzeitg Quote
600mm f4, that does not sound like a walkaround lens. However, every stop of light counts. Some of us are prepared to pay the price for longer reach and faster telephoto, some aren't.
I think the issue is that almost no one is prepared to pay the price, Zzeitg, that's what the numbers say.

QuoteOriginally posted by zzeitg Quote
As a guy who remains loyal to the Pentax brand, I can only say that my preference is to maintain one camera system only (I don't want to flirt with Canikon just because of absence of long telephoto prime (either from Pentax or from any third-party brand)).
Well, I'm not brand loyal.

I wouldn't swap brands for some slow 150-600 Sigma or Tamron. I already have the Bigmos 150-500.

But if I won the lottery, I'd have a pair of Nikon D5s, 400mm f2.8 for sports and 600mm f4 for wildlife. Plus a team of sherpas to carry it all for me.

In the real world, I enjoy shooting those subjects with a K-1, K-S2, Tamron 70-200, Bigmos and FA*300, with and without 1.4TC. My wife would say I'd put way too much of our money into those as it stands.

Last edited by clackers; 01-30-2018 at 04:42 PM.
01-30-2018, 04:37 PM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Steve the park biologist told me 10 years ago they paid $250 an image for images for park brochures, slideshows and presentations etc. Now people donate the images for nothing other than the photo credit. That doesn't help pay for those lenses. The lenses have gotten more expensive and what you can make has been reduced to very little.

There seem to be a lot of old geezers that have a lot of money and time. They aren't buying lenses for the money they can make with them, but for the enjoyment they can get out of them.
You bring up a good point. Back in the dark ages when I was selling cameras for a living, it was a pretty well known fact that the vast majority of "pro" equipment was being bought by well heeled amateurs. The average Leica buyer, for example, was a doctor not a professional photographer.

One of the things people don't seem to get is that logic is a very small component in the equipment purchasing decision process. Most of the process (and by most, I suspect something north of 99%) is want and ability to pay. Most purchases are emotional based, not need based.

For practical purposes, all photographers are hobby photographers. There are a few outliers who actually make any income from it, and a much smaller subset of those who derive their entire income from it. Hobbyists don't need to justify equipment purchases off of a business development plan.

Hobbyists have a very simple formula: Want + ability to afford = new gear.
01-30-2018, 04:50 PM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote

One of the things people don't seem to get is that logic is a very small component in the equipment purchasing decision process. Most of the process (and by most, I suspect something north of 99%) is want and ability to pay. Most purchases are emotional based, not need based.
You've been in retail, Wheatfield, that might apply to the small segment that is the Premium market, both the doctors and the wannabes with smaller incomes who make the sacrifice.

Ordinary consumers like the soccer moms that powered the camera market in 2010-2012 are price sensitive.

The companies are forced to target Premium now that the bottom's fallen out of that market. It's how we got the K-1.

But you can end up so niche you can't survive - look at Hasselblad, now bought by a drone manufacturer.
01-30-2018, 05:03 PM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
You've been in retail, Wheatfield, that might apply to the small segment that is the Premium market, both the doctors and the wannabes with smaller incomes who make the sacrifice.

Ordinary consumers like the soccer moms that powered the camera market in 2010-2012 are price sensitive.

The companies are forced to target Premium now that the bottom's fallen out of that market. It's how we got the K-1.

But you can end up so niche you can't survive - look at Hasselblad, now bought by a drone manufacturer.
It applies right across the board.

Purchasing decisions are based on want and ability to pay, it's as simple as that.

A price conscious consumer will buy a Canon Rebel and a kit lens, a less price conscious consumer would be in the market for something more expensive, and on and on, until we get to the buyer who is not price sensitive at all, but might well just like the idea of having a Leica slung around his neck.
The "price sensitive" camera market has been around for a lot longer than the couple of years you mentioned, it has been around since the beginning of mainstream photography.

Photography was built on the backs of the "price sensitive" user.
01-30-2018, 10:25 PM   #102
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I think many here exaggerate when we start talking about a long prime
No one here is talking about an delirious desire to have a 600mm f2.8 weighing a ton. What emerges for now is that many amateur wildlife enthusiasts would like a compromise to be found, between price, performances and weight / template. The 400mm f5.6 is often put forward, and it's crazy to read here that pentax would not find a margin with it. The design is not extraordinarily complex, with probably less of a constraint than an average middle f2.8 zoom.

We must stop believing that if pentax does not design a big, very big 500/600 or 800mm f2.8, it will lose money. I just believe that a simple 400mm f5.6 could sell easily.
150-450mm is not a fiasco, it seems to me that it rather sold well whereas its price remains appreciable and the investment in design and production has cost the brand dearly.

We must stop saying that the compromise is not possible: pentax has everything to gain from achieving an affordable mid-long prime, not a pro lens but a well designed, simple tool for a good introduction to wildlife. These compromise could well be a great success, and the brand will not sink into the depths of bankruptcy as if she dared to offer a 12000$ pro prime 600mm f2.8.
01-30-2018, 10:27 PM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote

Photography was built on the backs of the "price sensitive" user.
Has for decades, Wheatfield.

Pros have their equipment only because of us consumers providing the cashflow to the companies to develop the equipment they use. Take away the low end and Canon/Nikon would look very different ... and it's perhaps getting that way.

An example of the loss leader in the car industry is the Bugatti Veyron. A prestige project, apparently VW loses hundreds of thousands on each one they sell. Like car racing, its publicity value to the brands VW own is questionable.
01-30-2018, 10:30 PM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gedeon Quote
I just believe that a simple 400mm f5.6 could sell easily.
Doesn't in other brands, Gedeon.

The poll here doesn't indicate much love for the idea, and I bet Ricoh's marketing department would also shake their heads from their own research.

Pentax did of course once have a 400mm f5.6.

Why do you suppose they stopped offering it?
01-30-2018, 10:57 PM   #105
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technology has evolved. What could be implemented a few decades ago, could give an average result now. New coatings, new materials, best optimized production solutions.... the product could only be better for sure....
For what you say about disinterest for long prime, for now I see the 400mm exceed the 10% of expectations in the poll : seventh out of 48 proposals, in front of any 20, 24 or 50mm .... but here again, probably an error of all those who have voted so far....
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