[stevebrot]

I'm guessing if the 'Apply One' option is available for whatever lens attached then it has the ability to have that info stored.

That would make sense, but is not the behavior on some older model cameras such as the K-3. The option is available, but re-entering the setting page shows it was not saved. Beyond my K-3 running firmware v1.30, it is hard to say what happens with other cameras or firmware versions.

The other motivation is I am just unsure of how good the AF confirmation/system is on my K-1

Focus confirm is as sensitive to OOF dectection as PDAF autofocus. Notice the wording of the preceding. How well that translates into in-focus results depends on the lens design and user technique. The same are true for PDAF with AF lenses. If a person is interested in a direct comparison, the FA-series primes were designed for both manual and PDAF. If the lens has a reasonable focus throw and ring lash along with decent resolution/contrast, a controlled comparison using a resolution target should be quite possible.

The only time I have comfortably used LiveView and MF is when monopodding...

I don't do live view off-tripod except for shooting over the heads of crowds.


Steve

[BruceBanner]

That would make sense, but is not the behavior on some older model cameras such as the K-3. The option is available, but re-entering the setting page shows it was not saved. Beyond my K-3 running firmware v1.30, it is hard to say what happens with other cameras or firmware versions.

ah k, gotcha.

Focus confirm is as sensitive to OOF dectection as PDAF autofocus. Notice the wording of the preceding. How well that translates into in-focus results depends on the lens design and user technique. The same are true for PDAF with AF lenses. If a person is interested in a direct comparison, the FA-series primes were designed for both manual and PDAF. If the lens has a reasonable focus throw and ring lash along with decent resolution/contrast, a controlled comparison using a resolution target should be quite possible.

Ah... sorry, you lost me here a little, care to mansplain to me at all (it's ok if you cbb lol)? OOF = Out Of Focus? PDAF = ? And the whole passage in general I am lost a little. I think what yer hinting towards is that the focus system locking onto 'bokeh' or out of focus areas can happen and it's not always user error. I can present quite a few images whereby I have SEL selected (single point, one square above centre), am shooting a public speaker for example, have AF confirmation (green hexagon), take the shots, but upon review the speaker is in no way in focus, way off, and the back of the persons head in the front row was chosen (even tho they might not be at all near the speaker or the focus confirmation point). We're talking about massive soft shots here, not a fine adjustment issue.
Anyway, didn't mean to steer this towards a Pentax AF bashing session, I've owned a K-1 for over a year now, and I like to think I can take some nice shots with it, I know many times I am at fault to blame for missed shots, there are a plethora of reasons why, from badly chosen settings, to being late with squeezing the shutter button from the point the focus was confirmed, I and the subject have moved etc etc. But at the end of the day Pentax does seem to feel there was room to make the AF system better (K-1mkii) and that Pentax as a brand is not known for having the greatest optimised AF system out there (they excel in other areas such as WR and Landscape/IQ). What all this means is that there seems to be a lower success rate when shooting, when you nail a shot however it's spectacular
Trying to increase my skill level was in part motivated to stop me hating Pentax for it's mistakes (when likely it was more me anyway hehehe) and instead shift the failure of the shot towards me, I can get better after all... I'm just not sure Pentax AF can.

I don't do live view off-tripod except for shooting over the heads of crowds.


Steve

Same, I've used that from time to time. Very handy.

[sqrrl]

What I've done with my Kp (and I may very well be wrong, but this is how I understood it, and it seems to work).

When I first got my Kp, most of my lenses were very slightly mis-focusing the same way and they had been focusing accurately on my k10 & K50, thus as I saw it, the camera itself was out of calibration & needed to be adjusted to that it agreed with my other cameras.

I used the 'apply all' after averaging a bunch of lenses, iirc it was '-3' on my camera.
As I understood I was calibrating the camera itself to work best with the greatest range of lenses.
This adjustment actually got me something like 90% of the return from bothering.

Then I used the 'apply one' setting for a couple of lenses which had the data pins in the back (the ones which have a chip inside them so that the camera identifies them - ie, modern AF lenses).
I didn't bother to calibrate any of my lenses which use small apertures routinely, only the fast primes which get used wide open, macro's, and long teles - I can't see the point in callibrating an ultrawide for instance which will be used with a small aperture as the depth of field will typically hide any fine adjustments made - life's too short to bother with stuff like that.

A couple of manual lenses I just use with LV, but only if they do something really special like 500+mm or tilt shift, etc.
(actually my 500 I have to use with LV, on a heavy tripod, with a release, whilst holding my breath and crossing my fingers etc, I digress).

Then I sold, cannibalized, or just got rid of any lenses which still wouldn't play nice - I still have 15-20 lenses and typically only use 4-5 on a regular basis.

[pschlute]

am shooting a public speaker for example, have AF confirmation (green hexagon), take the shots, but upon review the speaker is in no way in focus, way off

With a bit of experimentation you will find the green hexagon is not such a precise beast. It cover a range (albeit a very narrow one) rather than a single point, and you can have a difference depending on whether you turn the lens focus ring clockwise or anti-clockwise.

[stevebrot]

Ah... sorry, you lost me here a little, care to mansplain to me at all (it's ok if you cbb lol)? OOF = Out Of Focus? PDAF = ? And the whole passage in general I am lost a little. I think what yer hinting towards is that the focus system locking onto 'bokeh' or out of focus areas can happen and it's not always user error.

Nope...

OOF = Out Of Focus

What focus systems do is detect the OOF condition. At best, the system says that one point of the focus travel is less OOF than adjacent points. This concept is distinct from the "in focus". Think of it this way, how do we know the focus system is not working? When WE detect OOF and the system does not, of course. Focus sensitivity if the ability to detect the OOF condition is expressed as the f-number (largest aperture) at which that ability is maximum.

PDAF = Phase Detect Auto Focus

PDAF is the type of detection used for viewfinder AF, focus confirmation, and catch-in-focus on your camera. All three methods use the same detector and work the same way. PDAF fine adjustment is not strictly the same as calibration. What it does is provide the means to compensate for ambiguous signal (image actually) provided by a less-than-perfect lens where the point of detected least OOF is different from the actual. Common causes are poor lens alignment and/or poor axial spacing for focus and zoom groups.

At base level, Pentax PDAF has accuracy and precision equivalent to its competition. Conversely, its competition's PDAF suffers from the same general shortcomings (i.e. poor focus sensitivity with fast lenses) as Pentax.


Steve

[stevebrot]

With a bit of experimentation you will find the green hexagon is not such a precise beast. It cover a range (albeit a very narrow one) rather than a single point, and you can have a difference depending on whether you turn the lens focus ring clockwise or anti-clockwise.

The same is true for AF with the same system. The point at which it says "good" varies from try-to-try and also depends on direction (near-far vs. far-near). The green hexagon "slop" is probably the most effective way to demonstrate the precision limits of the system with a particular lens.


Steve

[BruceBanner]

With a bit of experimentation you will find the green hexagon is not such a precise beast. It cover a range (albeit a very narrow one) rather than a single point, and you can have a difference depending on whether you turn the lens focus ring clockwise or anti-clockwise.

Yep, and I think this is the bit that throws me off the most because I do enjoy shooting wide, but when shooting with a 135 at f2 and aiming for a beer can on the kitchen bench top and yer standing in the living room a good 8meters away... its difficult to nail that shot. The hexagon comes on and has a range (as you say), it stays on for quite a bit as I am still turning the focus ring, only toggling off when I have went too far. This is then the issue I encounter the most, it effect AF system or using MF and using the hexagon, when shooting very thin DoF at targets far away, it's 'luck' as to where you hit the shutter button during the time the hexagon comes on to nailing the focus. Actually turning of AF confirmation and using the eye (even in the viewfinder) probably results in more success than relying on a blinking red screen and green hex. And I think this also accounts for a fair few AF misses.

I think this is where most think to toggle to Live View and magnification is best, they're maybe right. Even with a 1.22 magnifier it's incredibly hard to see any real difference in clarity of a small object (like a beer bottle) from afar, you just twist the focus ring, it all says its still in focus but to your eye things don't look that much different (I even wrote much the same in my Takumar (Bayonet) 135/2 review).
The solution I guess is quite simple, either take a few shots and get one that is in focus, or stop down the aperture when things are further away and use AF confirmation. Save the f1.4's for things very near where you get more visual feedback as to what part of the object you want crisp and clear.

What I've done with my Kp (and I may very well be wrong, but this is how I understood it, and it seems to work).

When I first got my Kp, most of my lenses were very slightly mis-focusing the same way and they had been focusing accurately on my k10 & K50, thus as I saw it, the camera itself was out of calibration & needed to be adjusted to that it agreed with my other cameras.

I used the 'apply all' after averaging a bunch of lenses, iirc it was '-3' on my camera.
As I understood I was calibrating the camera itself to work best with the greatest range of lenses.
This adjustment actually got me something like 90% of the return from bothering.

Then I used the 'apply one' setting for a couple of lenses which had the data pins in the back (the ones which have a chip inside them so that the camera identifies them - ie, modern AF lenses).
I didn't bother to calibrate any of my lenses which use small apertures routinely, only the fast primes which get used wide open, macro's, and long teles - I can't see the point in callibrating an ultrawide for instance which will be used with a small aperture as the depth of field will typically hide any fine adjustments made - life's too short to bother with stuff like that.

A couple of manual lenses I just use with LV, but only if they do something really special like 500+mm or tilt shift, etc.
(actually my 500 I have to use with LV, on a heavy tripod, with a release, whilst holding my breath and crossing my fingers etc, I digress).

Then I sold, cannibalized, or just got rid of any lenses which still wouldn't play nice - I still have 15-20 lenses and typically only use 4-5 on a regular basis.

Sounds like a plan, not a bad idea.

I have an issue currently however that if I am left in Apply All (from using a MF lens), power down, connect an AF Lens (with Data Pins) and power up, it's still selected as Apply All and not toggled onto 'Apply One'. I'll see if I can make my K-1 behave better in this regard, otherwise even when toggling User Modes I'm going to have to manually check if the camera is on AF Fine Adjustments Apply All or Apply One everytime I swap a lens <sigh>

I just spent the best part of 2hrs redoing the Focus Chart test. I don't know if it's possible that overtime the camera changes but none of my old settings applied, today I came up with a new set of adjustments that I felt worked the best;



Note how I have 'Focus Chart' written on the left. That's because at one time I felt as though the results I got when testing on a FC differed from what I would call 'in the field' results. It's quite possible my 'old' settings are actually in the field tweaks rather than what I got on the day with a FC. I'll keep an eye on what I have set to day (New) and see if they feel accurate for getting decent results in the field.

The same is true for AF with the same system. The point at which it says "good" varies from try-to-try and also depends on direction (near-far vs. far-near). The green hexagon "slop" is probably the most effective way to demonstrate the precision limits of the system with a particular lens.


Steve

Yep, and this is mirroring I think what pschlute was talking about (clockwise or anti-clockwise).

[stevebrot]

I have an issue currently however that if I am left in Apply All (from using a MF lens), power down, connect an AF Lens (with Data Pins) and power up, it's still selected as Apply All and not toggled onto 'Apply One'. I'll see if I can make my K-1 behave better in this regard, otherwise even when toggling User Modes I'm going to have to manually check if the camera is on AF Fine Adjustments Apply All or Apply One everytime I swap a lens <sigh>

Fine adjust is not assignable to a User mode. This goes for both global and per-lens adjustment. Likewise, global means global. Adjustments apply to all lenses and are retained through a power-off cycle. If the global adjustment is intended to be temporary, it is essential to remember to return the setting to its previous value at end of session.


Steve

[BruceBanner]

Fine adjust is not assignable to a User mode. This goes for both global and per-lens adjustment. Likewise, global means global. Adjustments apply to all lenses and are retained through a power-off cycle. If the global adjustment is intended to be temporary, it is essential to remember to return the setting to its previous value at end of session.


Steve

Thanks Steve.

Currently I am getting this behaviour, which I find a tad odd.

If I have a DFA 100 connected, set the Fine Adjustment to Apply One, take a shot. Power down, connect the FA 50mm, power up, same user mode (a custom User Mode 2, Av), then I was expecting it to remain as Apply One, but it actually seems to like Apply All as it's default.
I was expecting switching from AF to MF lens to lead to that kind of behaviour because the Apply All is all a MF lens can do (or Off), so when going from MF>AF lens swap I was expecting it to go Apply All>Apply All, but I really thought an AF>AF lens swap would stay in Apply One and not jump back to Apply All...

Curious.

Either way it really seems as though I have to be careful with those lens swaps and pay attention to the Fine Adjustment menu, shame there isn't a shortcut but at least its not too difficult a menu nav to get to.

EDIT: Just testing now, it seems as though a User Mode is not 'global', if you tell User Mode 2 to use 'Apply All' and User Mode 3 to 'Apply One' then that's what will happen during power downs and ups. (maybe you said that and I didn't fully understand), I thought you meant it ignored User Modes...

That helps in a way, I can select one User Mode for AF lenses and have it set to Apply One, that way I never have to check when swapping AF lenses the Fine Adjustment option, I will know it has toggled between swaps (as long as I power down and up I think). Another User Mode can be assigned for Manual Focus lenses and left in 'Apply All', that way I either average the difference between my Manual Focus Glass (fairly possibly between my Takumar and Samyang (choose - 7 for example), or indeed just make a note on the lens cap or memorise somewhere and make that fine adjustment toggle when changing glass.

[pschlute]

Currently I am getting this behaviour, which I find a tad odd.

If I have a DFA 100 connected, set the Fine Adjustment to Apply One, take a shot. Power down, connect the FA 50mm, power up, same user mode (a custom User Mode 2, Av), then I was expecting it to remain as Apply One, but it actually seems to like Apply All as it's default

Bruce, if you have assigned AF-FA "apply one" settings to both the 100 (eg -3) and 50 (eg +2) lens then those individual settings will be used each time you swap lenses. If you put a lens that has not been assigned a "apply one" setting on the camera then it will use the global setting. What the menu shows you when you open it is irrelevant.

Whether the USER modes honour AF-FA settings individually to that mode, I cannot remember, but I dont think they do. You can check this by using the dfa 100 lens. In USER mode1 set apply one -10, and save the USER mode. Then in USER mode 2 set apply one +10 and save that USER mode. Power off remove lens then test.

Remember to save a USER mode setting it is best to be in that mode, change a setting, then save that USER mode.

[sqrrl]

My understanding is as above (pschlute) - I applied the 'all' setting first, then the 'one' settings later as needed. I don't generally use 'user' settings for anything much. Generally I just use aperture priority or manual and fiddle the settings on the fly.

[BruceBanner]

Bruce, if you have assigned AF-FA "apply one" settings to both the 100 (eg -3) and 50 (eg +2) lens then those individual settings will be used each time you swap lenses. If you put a lens that has not been assigned a "apply one" setting on the camera then it will use the global setting. What the menu shows you when you open it is irrelevant.

Whether the USER modes honour AF-FA settings individually to that mode, I cannot remember, but I dont think they do. You can check this by using the dfa 100 lens. In USER mode1 set apply one -10, and save the USER mode. Then in USER mode 2 set apply one +10 and save that USER mode. Power off remove lens then test.

Remember to save a USER mode setting it is best to be in that mode, change a setting, then save that USER mode.

I believe User Modes definitely can save the preference for Fine Adjustments. If you save it as 'Apply All' and power down and back up, it will use that, or 'Off' or 'Apply One' (if possible, if it's a MF lens then it seems to toggle onto Apply All in that case).

I tested it, here's what I did.

I had User Mode 2 setup as Av Mode (kinda irrelevant) and 'Apply All' for for FA (Fine Adjustments). Connecting a FA50 or a DFA100 (with their own unique 'Apply One' settings) did not trigger the FA mode to go into Apply One. If I powered on the camera with one of those lens attached, navigated to User Mode 2 and checked the menu, it would still be in Apply All. If I changed it to 'Apply One' (but not save the User Mode 2 settings), power down and back up (with the same AF lens attached), it would still 'boot' back into 'Apply All' (ie it doesn't use what was last selected and left off, it actually recalls at that time when the User Mode is saved what the FA setting was on.
If I change the User Mode 2, set the FA to 'Apply One' then save that, indeed powering on and off will now keep the FA on Apply One with the different AF lenses attached (and indeed recall each lenses individual FA).
You can see how this would be true if you look at the Custom menu, '25 AF Fine Adjustment' gives the options of 1 (Off), 2 (Apply All) or 3 (Apply One). All the other custom menu items values are recalled during User Mode saves, so why not AF Fine Adjustments?

What happens if you attach a MF lens onto a User Mode stored/saved as 'Apply One'? It seems to toggle to Apply All rather than 'Off'. However, if you have a User Mode saved as 'Apply All' and connect an AF lens to it, it doesn't toggle to Apply One, it will stay on Apply All.

So I've come to the conclusion that setting a User Mode and saving it to being '25 AF Fine Adjustment 3' (Apply One) is best because with each AF lens swap the mode will apply each individual FA for those pieces of glass, it's just when you connect a MF lens to that User Mode it will slip onto 'Apply All' and you will need to check that adjustment value as it will be whatever was last used (tested this also*).

* If you have a User Mode set to Apply All and save it as -5, power down and back up it will still say -5, if you then change that value to -7, power down power back up, it does not show -5 (it's initial saved value when creating the User Mode settings) but actually -7 (what it was last toggled to). Slight shame in this regard as that might have been a useful way of creating a User Mode specific to a certain MF piece of glass. Example;

User Mode 4; Samyang 85/1.4, Apply All, -7
User Mode 5; Takumar 135/2.5, Apply All, -10

But it doesn't work that way. Apply All just simply recalls the last toggle between power downs.

[stevebrot]

If I have a DFA 100 connected, set the Fine Adjustment to Apply One, take a shot. Power down, connect the FA 50mm, power up, same user mode (a custom User Mode 2, Av), then I was expecting it to remain as Apply One, but it actually seems to like Apply All as it's default.
I was expecting switching from AF to MF lens to lead to that kind of behaviour because the Apply All is all a MF lens can do (or Off), so when going from MF>AF lens swap I was expecting it to go Apply All>Apply All, but I really thought an AF>AF lens swap would stay in Apply One and not jump back to Apply All...

Curious.

Both those lenses are AF.


Steve

[stevebrot]

I believe User Modes definitely can save the preference for Fine Adjustments.

I respectfully disagree and I believe the user guide and actual behavior are on my side, at least on my K-3. Not having your K-1 in hand, I can't say for sure with it, though I believe your test protocol is flawed. Check to see if the actual adjustments are retained and specific to that User mode.

Edit: I double checked my resources this afternoon and discovered that I am quite wrong about this.

What happens if you attach a MF lens onto a User Mode stored/saved as 'Apply One'?

Nothing. Edit: I will check the behavior of this on the K-3 and report back.


Steve

[pschlute]

Looking at this again

Bruce, I believe you are correct. just had a play with the K1 and you can set any USER mode to OFF or APPLY ALL or APPLY ONE and as long as you save that USER mode it will recall those menu settings when powered up.

So you could set a USER mode for your MF lenses and save it as APPLY ALL. You would still need to change the Fine adjustment setting to suit each lens of course when you mounted it on the camera.

What you cannot do is to have more than one APPLY ALL settings (or indeed APPLY ONE settings). So you could not have one USER MODE showing APPLY ALL +5 and another USER MODE showing Apply ALL +10 for example.