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05-26-2018, 08:22 PM   #1
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Focus Charts for MF Lenses?

So in the past I have used Focus Charts to try and finetune adjust any of my AF lenses. It's recently dawned on me that you might also need to do the same for Manual Focus lenses if using the AF Confirmation point when shooting (centre spot).

Is this right?

Also, will the K-1/KP remember these settings for different MF lenses attached? Or is it going to get confused? Like, I understand that the camera will somehow be clever enough to know when i have tuned for a DFA 100 that when I connect that again it knows the fine adjustments to use, but if I have a few different K mount MF lenses of different (or even the same) focal length, is it going to know which lens is which? Do the old lenses lack certain stuff that modern cameras need to make their identity known etc.

Cheers!

Bruce

05-26-2018, 08:26 PM   #2
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I think MF lenses are still all on you Bruce! If it is that persnickety, use LV and zoom x8 or x10 to confirm focus. Hand held, get the magnifier you are looking for.
I use the OME magnifier and still need a tripod and zoom.
05-26-2018, 08:33 PM   #3
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I have heard of that happening and i think my 50 1.7 is a little off. Since you enter the focal length you would think it could at least store one setting for each focal length though if you have multiple 50's you'd be out of luck.
Note to self...check your a 50 1.7
05-26-2018, 09:37 PM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by SSGGeezer Quote
I think MF lenses are still all on you Bruce! If it is that persnickety, use LV and zoom x8 or x10 to confirm focus. Hand held, get the magnifier you are looking for.
I use the OME magnifier and still need a tripod and zoom.
Cheek!
But I think the AF Confirmation spot is no different for MF lens to AF lenses. I tried yesterday for a bit and noticed that the fine adjustments confirmation was definitely significant when using AF confirmation on MF glass. It definitely is factored in.
So I am left with the choice of ignoring AF Frame and spots and use just my eye and take the shot when I think things are at their best/sharpest, or I use the assistance of AF confirmation and fine tune. I'm just a little confused over whether the finetune adjustments are 'apply one' or 'apply all' (ie global or it recalls the glass being used).

05-26-2018, 09:55 PM   #5
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If the lens can't convey info how will the camera know? How about "a" lenses. We need answers.
05-26-2018, 10:01 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Is this right?
No

QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Also, will the K-1/KP remember these settings for different MF lenses attached?
No

QuoteOriginally posted by swanlefitte Quote
We need answers.
You can test them, but there is nothing you can do about it on a per lens basis if they do show front/back focus. Your camera may allow you to do an "apply one" fine adjust, but the value is not saved since there is no lens id* to map the setting to. Better to simply use your eyeballs or magnified live view.


Steve

* With the exception of a few very recent lenses (e.g. Irix models), manual focus lenses do not have the data pin on the mount and have no means to provide a lens id to the body.

Last edited by stevebrot; 05-26-2018 at 10:09 PM.
05-26-2018, 10:12 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
No



No



You can test them, but there is nothing you can do about it on a per lens basis if they do show front/back focus. Your camera may allow you to do an "apply one" fine adjust, but the value is not saved since there is no lens id* to map the setting to. Better to simply use your eyeballs or magnified live view.


Steve

* With the exception of a few very recent lenses (e.g. Irix models), manual focus lenses do not have the data pin on the mount and have no means to provide a lens id to the body.
I have a Samyang 85/1.4 coming, do you know if this is the same as the Irix models?
05-26-2018, 10:26 PM - 1 Like   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
I have a Samyang 85/1.4 coming, do you know if this is the same as the Irix models?
Unless something has changed, current model Samyang lenses are all KA mount (no data contact). The Irix models (11mm Firefly and 15mm) are sort of odd in that the mount has the KAF contacts on a manual focus lens.


Steve


Last edited by stevebrot; 05-26-2018 at 10:37 PM.
05-27-2018, 02:28 AM - 2 Likes   #9
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Have you tried using the global AF FA setting? ie NOT the "apply one" setting.

This will also mean that any modern AF lens you use on the camera that has NOT had an "apply one" adjustment will also be affected by the setting.

So make sure all your AF lenses have their individual settings applied. Then spend a weekend testing all your MF lenses and make a note of the adjustment for each one. Then when you put a MF lens on the camera refer to your notes and adjust the global setting accordingly.
05-27-2018, 07:18 AM - 2 Likes   #10
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Global af fine adjustment does affect focus confirmation of manual focus lenses. You would need to change the setting for each lens (assuming all your MF lenses lack a data pin). A label on the inside of a cap would be one way to recall what adjustment to input.
05-27-2018, 01:49 PM   #11
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Thanks everybody for the clarifications and top tips (such as lens cap notes lol, I like that one!)

I've just since noticed that when I have a MF lens attached, the 'Apply One' is greyed out, it's not even possible for that lens to get that option, so I guess that answers the question as to if MF lenses can 'hold onto' individual fine adjustments, obviously a clear no on that point. I'm guessing if the 'Apply One' option is available for whatever lens attached then it has the ability to have that info stored.

I think I got into a bit of a mess, because when I toggled between MF glass and back to AF glass, and even when using Custom User Modes (and powering down and up), if I was last in 'Apply All' then that Fine Adjustment was kept on that option rather than jumping to 'Apply One' and using that setting for the AF lens etc. Gah!

It feels like a lot of hassle of toggling and menu navigation for when lens swapping occurs. I'm wondering now if there is someway to set up a User Mode for each lens that recalls the Fine Adjustment mode and value, rather than when powering down and back on again it remaining 'stuck' on what was last used. Example;

User Mode 1 - DFA 100, Apply One, Fine Adjustment +3

User Mode 2 - Takumar 135/2.5 Apply All, Fine Adjustment -10

User Mode 3 - SMC Pentax A 24/2.8 Apply All, Fine Adjustment -5

User Mode 4 - FA 50mm, Apply One, Fine Adjustment +6

Etc.

Perhaps in the 'Memory' section of the menu I should be ticking or unticking something there so that between power downs and power ups it can use/apply these changes?

But I don't think this will work because 'Apply All' is not 'saved' like Apply One seems to be, so whilst in the example above it's certainly possible to have User Mode 1 and 4, having User Mode 2 and 3 just won't work (is my guess). The above scenario isn't even that ideal because I'm then using up valuable custom modes for lenses rather than scenarios...

So I'm left with (as you say) either turning off fine adjustments and ignore AF Confirmation (remove it from the Viewfinder Overlay entirely) and use just my eye and judgement (which I have been doing a fair bit already) for when working in MF mode, or when toggling glass make sure to look at the lens cap or whatever and quickly make that fine adjustment in the settings (sigh).

More and more I am enjoying the shooting experience of MF, but I also know and need to use AF when it arises. I often shoot MF with my AF lenses, and then toggle the MF/AF switch to AF when need arises, so generally speaking I like to have AF points on the Viewfinder Overlay in case that scenario quickly pops up. Perhaps I need a AF Point User Mode and a non AF Point User Mode (blank Viewfinder Overlay), and ensure that Apply One is on for AF Point and 'Off' for the blank Viewfinder Overlay, that way at least the AF glass will be correct fine adjustments for when toggling between AF/MF switch, I can just simply turn a dial whilst I'm at it...
05-27-2018, 02:00 PM   #12
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Of course if you know you get back /front focus and what degree one could get proficient at getting the adjustment by feel. Every lens seems to have a different focus throw complicating the matter.
05-27-2018, 02:06 PM - 1 Like   #13
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There is also focus peaking in LiveView, of course.

Works well with MF lenses with razor thin DOF like the Samyang 85.
05-27-2018, 02:13 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by swanlefitte Quote
Of course if you know you get back /front focus and what degree one could get proficient at getting the adjustment by feel. Every lens seems to have a different focus throw complicating the matter.
I used to use Focus Charts, but yes quite quickly in the field you can tell with 2mins of tinkering if the lens benefits in clarity and focus in either direction by repeat testing, adjust, test, adjust and so forth. But of course there are many scenarios where that time spent is not possible, shots need to be fired off quickly.

There are a few reasons that put me onto getting (or trying) more proficient in using MF mode. One is that I am keen to have a play with focal lengths and apertures such as 85/1.4 and 135/2, but can't afford the AF of these kinda lenses, but my budget will extend to the MF variants of these combinations. Can I handle shooting a portrait session for example with MF glass? I dunno... best try using MF exclusively with all lens and see then!
The other motivation is I am just unsure of how good the AF confirmation/system is on my K-1, whether it is poor in relation to other brands, or just user error, but at least when moving away from it and shooting MF then I can take more the blame than blame the camera (ie, confirmation point confirmed, hexagon is shown in Viewfinder Overlay, take shot, review, subject is blurry, focus is way off... grr...)

I'm starting to realise that my month of May testing MF technique may have been skewed by the fact I ignored Fine Adjustments, thinking that I'm in MF mode it doesn't apply. Some of those days I ignored it (for example when framing a shot and wanting the focus to being not on the centre point anyway), but I am now wondering if the times I was using centre point and AF confirmation that I had my settings all wrong, and basically subject to the same follies as using the AF system fully (I just manually took myself there...).

I am indeed a slooooow learner lol

---------- Post added 05-28-18 at 07:19 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
There is also focus peaking in LiveView, of course.

Works well with MF lenses with razor thin DOF like the Samyang 85.
The only time I have comfortably used LiveView and MF is when monopodding, handheld out in the field using LV doesn't 'feel' too great and I believe contributes to my back problems due to the position I am left holding the camera in. I have a 1.22 magnifier viewfinder on the K-1 which helps, I think I would like to try the Tenpa 1.36.
Using LV I think also drains batteries real quick as well.
05-27-2018, 02:27 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Using LV I think also drains batteries real quick as well.
True. Focus peaking and LV may not be ideal for all-day shooting out in the field with a 1kg+ camera & lens, but when you need it, you need it.
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