M 20 f4; prices? Alternatives?

**jatrax** · 07-09-2018, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by tvdtvdtvd

I think we can agree there's likely room for both, providedRicoh can find the R&D time.....

Yep. R&D time and capital. Oh well, there is no lens I can think of that would really make my images any better anyway. I'm the restriction and spending money on glass, while fun, is not going to improve my work all that much.

pinholecam · 07-10-2018, 12:02 AM

The ones that mount directly and are really small will certainly be the M20/4 and the Voigtlander 20/3.5.
They are generally the same in stopped down sharpness (which is up to about 1/8 of the frame ), I have seen a copy of the Voigtlander that was better, but that was one copy out of 3.
The Voigtlander is also an "A" lens, so its worth the money provided it has not increased much in price since its original price.

bm75 · 07-10-2018, 02:23 AM

I'm pretty sure we will not see anything small as the M20 in the future. This is a comparison in size Nikon 20 f/1,8 - Pentax M20. Filter thread is 77 vs 49. That's a reason to love this lens (the Pentax) . Sigma 20 f/1.4 is bigger. Simply put a single modern lens (yes..f/1.8 not f/4) has a size of M20 +m28 . If the OP wants small lenses, there's no way out than vintage glass or mirrorless (m43). Personally I would spend no more than Euro 200,00 for a M20 (considered my copy was in mint conditions and costed me Eur 120,00 before k1 came out).

antipattern · 07-10-2018, 02:27 AM - **1 Like**

I love the M20's size. It's even smaller than the M50. The only thing I really miss about the M20 are the DA15/DA21's starbursts.

I just wish the DA21 was full frame. That would be perfect.

D1N0 · 07-10-2018, 02:38 AM - **1 Like**

When you want large aperture lenses they are going to be big. When you want controlled distortion, they are going to be big as well. The Pentax-m 20 F4 is also famous for it's moustache distortion. The Pentax K 20mm F4 is much larger but has less distortion. I think the new Pentax extreme wide angle is not going to be F1.4/1.8. More like F 2.8 so that it can be moderately compact.

ntrao · 07-10-2018, 02:49 AM

Last year I bought a M20 in excellent condition for $130, may be I am lucky. And it is a wonderful lens on K-1. Looking for more wide lens, but unfortunately nothing available in pentax for a decent price. So thinking of Samyang 14mm or 16mm. But, those cannot beat M20.

D1N0 · 07-10-2018, 03:00 AM

There is also the Laowa 15mm F4 (also has moderate tilt shift). When ordered via grey import it is quite affordable.

**savoche** · 07-10-2018, 03:11 AM

Originally posted by Adam

Based on this discussion, it seems like a modern compact ultra-wide lens would be a very welcome addition to the Pentax lineup, especially if the optics are brought up to digital standards

Yes, please

Originally posted by Simen1

I believe that is what the "Ultra wide-angle single focus lens" are in the roadmap. I will be disappointed if its huge.

That's my worry - the size of it.

I know, I know, if I want compact I should stick to APS-C. Or µ4/3. Or use vintage glass

pid · 07-10-2018, 03:22 AM

Originally posted by c.a.m

@pres589, would an RMC Tokina 17/3.5 be of interest?

While it's not tiny like the M 20/4 (300 g vs. 150 g), it's not huge. I had one for a while and found it to be easy to handle in the field. It's very sharp in the centre and decent at the edges and corners.

There is one listed in the PF Marketplace (not mine, and no affiliation).

- Craig

The Tokina is a good alternative and not as rare. I have the A 20/2.8, the M 20/4 and the RMC Tokina 17/3,5. They are all good on K1, if you use a hood for better contrast.
An other alternative is the DA 12-24/4. It is FF from 18-24mm and also not bad.
But all those lenses need to be stopped down for better corners and all of them suffer a little in the corners, but in most cases this is not relevant.

**savoche** · 07-10-2018, 03:22 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by jatrax

Yep. R&D time and capital. Oh well, there is no lens I can think of that would really make my images any better anyway. I'm the restriction and spending money on glass, while fun, is not going to improve my work all that much.

Stop being sensible. It makes my head hurt.

Wasp · 07-10-2018, 04:49 AM

I have an M 20mm f/4.0. It was bought used back in the eighties when I was a student. I had to dig deep to find the money asked.

Not owning a full frame body, this lens gets little use at present. Last year I tried it on my K-x for street photography but found out the hard way that the hyperfocal distance marks are wrong for a crop frame. Easy to rectify that mistake, but then I got a Samsung NX100 for that purpose.

For them moment, the lens is not for sale. This might change if the price keeps going up, but it is still unlikely. Even if I don't use it much, it rounds out my collection of Pentax glass.

**pres589** · 07-10-2018, 06:53 AM

Lot of chatter about lenses I simply cannot use as I plan to utilize either my Ricoh XR-7 or acquire a K1000 for the trip I have planned. That means aperture ring. This is probably the forum gods coming back to haunt me for all of the times I suggested someone get a Super-Wide II AF when it wasn't exactly what they wanted.

Voiglander 20's seem overpriced vs. M 20's and what I need (no value in an A position on the aperture ring when you're shooting with a K1000). I think I'll watch for a good Nikon 20 f4 to convert via Leitax while also watching for a good deal on an M 20. If I don't find something viable in a month or so I'll put up a 'wanted' ad here on the Marketplace.

I hope there's a pair of wide-angle primes from Pentax soon. Something really stellar and fast and all that around 18mm. And then something decent and small and not especially costly around 25mm. Like an 18 f1.8 and a 25 f2.5.

**jatrax** · 07-10-2018, 07:20 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by pres589

I hope there's a pair of wide-angle primes from Pentax soon.

But those will not have an aperture ring..............

**pres589** · 07-10-2018, 07:27 AM

Originally posted by jatrax

But those will not have an aperture ring..............

I'm not the target customer anyway. And it might shake loose some vintage glass that people otherwise don't want to give up OR correct some pricing craziness that's going on currently.

Ricoh has absolutely no reason at this point to target people that are carrying around XR-7's. If they came out with a new lens for that audience they might sell, what, 50 a year? 100? I think they're wise to leave that to third parties & the available vintage glass that's out there today. That I can buy so much brand new glass from Samyang alone, right now, that works on my XR-7... it almost feels like a hack, like the system shouldn't allow for this. That's good enough.

**UncleVanya** · 07-10-2018, 07:33 AM

The non-ai Nikon 20mm f4 can be used without any modification at all at least to verify that it is what you want. The Nikon F mount will bayonet onto the K mount but not lock, with a lightweight lens this isn't a major issue. I've used a 50mm f2 this way in the past just to show it can work. You can drill a small indent where the lock pin sits and even lock it in place.

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07-09-2018, 08:46 PM	#31
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	Originally posted by tvdtvdtvd I think we can agree there's likely room for both, providedRicoh can find the R&D time..... Yep. R&D time and capital. Oh well, there is no lens I can think of that would really make my images any better anyway. I'm the restriction and spending money on glass, while fun, is not going to improve my work all that much.

07-10-2018, 12:02 AM	#32
pinholecam Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: North Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,709	The ones that mount directly and are really small will certainly be the M20/4 and the Voigtlander 20/3.5. They are generally the same in stopped down sharpness (which is up to about 1/8 of the frame ), I have seen a copy of the Voigtlander that was better, but that was one copy out of 3. The Voigtlander is also an "A" lens, so its worth the money provided it has not increased much in price since its original price.

07-10-2018, 02:27 AM - 1 Like	#34
antipattern Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Berlin, Germany Photos: Albums Posts: 232	I love the M20's size. It's even smaller than the M50. The only thing I really miss about the M20 are the DA15/DA21's starbursts. I just wish the DA21 was full frame. That would be perfect.

07-10-2018, 02:38 AM - 1 Like	#35
D1N0 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Location: --- Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,802	When you want large aperture lenses they are going to be big. When you want controlled distortion, they are going to be big as well. The Pentax-m 20 F4 is also famous for it's moustache distortion. The Pentax K 20mm F4 is much larger but has less distortion. I think the new Pentax extreme wide angle is not going to be F1.4/1.8. More like F 2.8 so that it can be moderately compact.

07-10-2018, 02:49 AM	#36
ntrao Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: India Photos: Albums Posts: 384	Last year I bought a M20 in excellent condition for $130, may be I am lucky. And it is a wonderful lens on K-1. Looking for more wide lens, but unfortunately nothing available in pentax for a decent price. So thinking of Samyang 14mm or 16mm. But, those cannot beat M20.

07-10-2018, 03:00 AM	#37
D1N0 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Location: --- Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,802	There is also the Laowa 15mm F4 (also has moderate tilt shift). When ordered via grey import it is quite affordable.

07-10-2018, 03:11 AM	#38
savoche Master of the obvious Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Lowlands of Norway Posts: 18,311	Originally posted by Adam Based on this discussion, it seems like a modern compact ultra-wide lens would be a very welcome addition to the Pentax lineup, especially if the optics are brought up to digital standards Yes, please Originally posted by Simen1 I believe that is what the "Ultra wide-angle single focus lens" are in the roadmap. I will be disappointed if its huge. That's my worry - the size of it. I know, I know, if I want compact I should stick to APS-C. Or µ4/3. Or use vintage glass

07-10-2018, 03:22 AM	#39
pid Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2010 Photos: Gallery Posts: 567	Originally posted by c.a.m @pres589, would an RMC Tokina 17/3.5 be of interest? While it's not tiny like the M 20/4 (300 g vs. 150 g), it's not huge. I had one for a while and found it to be easy to handle in the field. It's very sharp in the centre and decent at the edges and corners. There is one listed in the PF Marketplace (not mine, and no affiliation). - Craig The Tokina is a good alternative and not as rare. I have the A 20/2.8, the M 20/4 and the RMC Tokina 17/3,5. They are all good on K1, if you use a hood for better contrast. An other alternative is the DA 12-24/4. It is FF from 18-24mm and also not bad. But all those lenses need to be stopped down for better corners and all of them suffer a little in the corners, but in most cases this is not relevant.

07-10-2018, 03:22 AM - 1 Like	#40
savoche Master of the obvious Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Lowlands of Norway Posts: 18,311	Originally posted by jatrax Yep. R&D time and capital. Oh well, there is no lens I can think of that would really make my images any better anyway. I'm the restriction and spending money on glass, while fun, is not going to improve my work all that much. Stop being sensible. It makes my head hurt.

07-10-2018, 04:49 AM	#41
Wasp Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Pretoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,661	I have an M 20mm f/4.0. It was bought used back in the eighties when I was a student. I had to dig deep to find the money asked. Not owning a full frame body, this lens gets little use at present. Last year I tried it on my K-x for street photography but found out the hard way that the hyperfocal distance marks are wrong for a crop frame. Easy to rectify that mistake, but then I got a Samsung NX100 for that purpose. For them moment, the lens is not for sale. This might change if the price keeps going up, but it is still unlikely. Even if I don't use it much, it rounds out my collection of Pentax glass.

07-10-2018, 06:53 AM	#42
pres589 Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Wichita, KS Photos: Albums Posts: 4,533 Original Poster	Lot of chatter about lenses I simply cannot use as I plan to utilize either my Ricoh XR-7 or acquire a K1000 for the trip I have planned. That means aperture ring. This is probably the forum gods coming back to haunt me for all of the times I suggested someone get a Super-Wide II AF when it wasn't exactly what they wanted. Voiglander 20's seem overpriced vs. M 20's and what I need (no value in an A position on the aperture ring when you're shooting with a K1000). I think I'll watch for a good Nikon 20 f4 to convert via Leitax while also watching for a good deal on an M 20. If I don't find something viable in a month or so I'll put up a 'wanted' ad here on the Marketplace. I hope there's a pair of wide-angle primes from Pentax soon. Something really stellar and fast and all that around 18mm. And then something decent and small and not especially costly around 25mm. Like an 18 f1.8 and a 25 f2.5.

07-10-2018, 07:20 AM - 1 Like	#43
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	Originally posted by pres589 I hope there's a pair of wide-angle primes from Pentax soon. But those will not have an aperture ring..............

07-10-2018, 07:27 AM	#44
pres589 Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Wichita, KS Photos: Albums Posts: 4,533 Original Poster	Originally posted by jatrax But those will not have an aperture ring.............. I'm not the target customer anyway. And it might shake loose some vintage glass that people otherwise don't want to give up OR correct some pricing craziness that's going on currently. Ricoh has absolutely no reason at this point to target people that are carrying around XR-7's. If they came out with a new lens for that audience they might sell, what, 50 a year? 100? I think they're wise to leave that to third parties & the available vintage glass that's out there today. That I can buy so much brand new glass from Samyang alone, right now, that works on my XR-7... it almost feels like a hack, like the system shouldn't allow for this. That's good enough.

07-10-2018, 07:33 AM	#45
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,445	The non-ai Nikon 20mm f4 can be used without any modification at all at least to verify that it is what you want. The Nikon F mount will bayonet onto the K mount but not lock, with a lightweight lens this isn't a major issue. I've used a 50mm f2 this way in the past just to show it can work. You can drill a small indent where the lock pin sits and even lock it in place.