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09-23-2008, 10:03 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by polecat Quote
I was aware of the LZOS web site and their web store (I even watched their glossy promotional video in anticipation of receiving my lens) but this affair has left me with a bad taste in my mouth concerning all things Russian. I would think that LZOS would like to have a reliable trustworthy distributor in the "civilized" world.

Cheers, Ken
LZOS has no distributors in the "West". Rugift.com and similar businesses are basically gray market merchants. What they do is broker a transaction at arms length between you and some person in Russia who actually does the purchase and ships the item to their "friend" in the U.S..

I think that there are practical reasons for the lack of a "real" distributor in the U.S. at least. I have no doubt that there is sufficient market in the U.S. for the LZOS product, but a big issue may be import duty. The current tariff rate is 45% for lenses imported from Russia. That is a pretty bitter pill to swallow for anyone wanting to import commercially.

Rugift's business model apparently allows sales to its customers to "slip under the customs radar". Since they do not actually import anything, they are not responsible for compliance with customs regulations. It is the importer (that would be you, the customer) that is responsible for making sure that the item is legally imported and that applicable duty is paid.

Not good.

Steve

09-23-2008, 10:10 AM   #17
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QuoteQuote:
I would think that LZOS would like to have a reliable trustworthy distributor in the "civilized" world.
that's a pretty cheap shot. especially considering you obviously didn't inform yourself as to how the distribution system works to get your Russian lens. you are the one who comes off as 'uncivilized' not the whole of Russia.
09-23-2008, 10:44 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by polecat Quote
but this affair has left me with a bad taste in my mouth concerning all things Russian.
may I suggest you something like Durex Chocolate Passion next time ?
09-23-2008, 11:18 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
may I suggest you something like Durex Chocolate Passion next time ?
Gag...pfftt...

09-23-2008, 11:31 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by séamuis Quote
...you obviously didn't inform yourself as to how the distribution system works...
How the distribution system works can be pretty hard to figure out. When I ordered my first lens, I was under the impression that the item would be drop-shipped from the LZOS factory. NOT!

It was only after a fair amount of correspondence regarding late/missing/defective merchandise that I finally determined that the people at rugift have only a rough notion of the state of fulfillment and that the actual shipping appeared to have been done from a residential address on the outskirts of Moscow.

While it was not the smoothest online transaction, I was aware of the risks before I ordered and was not too upset when things did not go well. It helped that I paid with a major credit card and the merchant services provider (CCNow.com) had an active role in making sure that I got what I paid for.

Caveat Emptor

Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 09-23-2008 at 11:36 AM.
09-23-2008, 01:10 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
How the distribution system works can be pretty hard to figure out. When I ordered my first lens, I was under the impression that the item would be drop-shipped from the LZOS factory. NOT!

It was only after a fair amount of correspondence regarding late/missing/defective merchandise that I finally determined that the people at rugift have only a rough notion of the state of fulfillment and that the actual shipping appeared to have been done from a residential address on the outskirts of Moscow.

While it was not the smoothest online transaction, I was aware of the risks before I ordered and was not too upset when things did not go well. It helped that I paid with a major credit card and the merchant services provider (CCNow.com) had an active role in making sure that I got what I paid for.

Caveat Emptor

Steve

If this is true, we should just ask Gooshin to handle all our LZOS, Jupiter, etc distributions. He could get the stuff directly from the factory using his Russian ways, and we would all be the beneficiaries, including him.

But there may be a downside to bringing great wealth and power to Gooshin. Would he be benevolent? There's no way to know.




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09-23-2008, 01:14 PM   #22
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there is a certain demand that needs to be met in order for this operation to become worthwhile

rugift benefits from bulk processing

and while i can most definetly organize a purchase, you guys wont benefit much if it is done on a one by one case.

for isntance, shipping a box to my house with 10 lenses in it for 40 dollars and then resending them to the states or whatever will save people money rather than paying 40 bucks per lens just for shipping.

also this is assuming i make zero profit for my efforts.

but it is possible...

basicaly if i can raise enough demand (atleast 15 pieces total) i can work towards more investigative activiteis to see what must be done to accomplish this.
09-23-2008, 05:30 PM   #23
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So where would people be buying them from now? LZOS or Kremlin? Can either be trusted?

09-23-2008, 05:39 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by figmental1978 Quote
So where would people be buying them from now? LZOS or Kremlin? Can either be trusted?
Deal with the one that takes major credit cards. American Express if you have the card. If the deal goes bad, request a charge back. That usually gets the vendor's attention very quickly.

Steve
09-23-2008, 06:29 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Deal with the one that takes major credit cards. American Express if you have the card. If the deal goes bad, request a charge back. That usually gets the vendor's attention very quickly.

Steve
I have a few VISA cards which are also connected to my PayPal account. Direct payment or Paypal? I usually only give my credit card details to major retailers like amazon so paypal would be fine you think?
09-23-2008, 07:00 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
there is a certain demand that needs to be met in order for this operation to become worthwhile

rugift benefits from bulk processing

and while i can most definetly organize a purchase, you guys wont benefit much if it is done on a one by one case.

for isntance, shipping a box to my house with 10 lenses in it for 40 dollars and then resending them to the states or whatever will save people money rather than paying 40 bucks per lens just for shipping.

also this is assuming i make zero profit for my efforts.

but it is possible...

basicaly if i can raise enough demand (atleast 15 pieces total) i can work towards more investigative activiteis to see what must be done to accomplish this.
I think we should explore this option. I've seen other forums organize Group Buys, so why can't we?

We could set up a waiting list until we get all the names together and then have him order the lenses once the list fills and we could save a few bucks and add in some extra for his benevolence
09-23-2008, 07:55 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Here is the page for the Lytkarino Optical Glass Factory Web store

LZOS - Camera lenses (including Jupiter-9)

I have no idea what the shipping might be, but their price is $125. -$10 if you wire them the money direct!

Steve
if you look at the russian version of the price list
you will see : Jupiter 9 MC = RUR 5400 = not in stock

now RUR 5400 = ~ 5400/25 = ~USD $215
09-23-2008, 08:57 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by figmental1978 Quote
I have a few VISA cards which are also connected to my PayPal account. Direct payment or Paypal? I usually only give my credit card details to major retailers like amazon so paypal would be fine you think?
Good luck on doing a charge back through PayPal. Your credit card company will only do a charge back if you can demonstrate that the vendor did not deliver. In the case of PayPal, they always deliver. That is to say that they always fulfill their contract to give your money to the other guy. Whether you ever see the product is another matter. PayPal is biased in favor of the seller. However, if I remember correctly, don't they provide the option of some sort of buyer's insurance? I don't remember for sure since I seldom use PayPal outside of eBay and then only rarely.

Steve
09-23-2008, 09:19 PM   #29
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My humblest apologies to all and to Russians in particular. I know that Russia is civilized and I admire a lot of their accomplishments. However this particular deal, having to do with a Russian product, brings out the worst in me. Again, sorry.

Cheers, Ken.
09-23-2008, 10:34 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
are you implying that russia is not civilized?
When I was living in Oslo (that's in Norway, for my American friends), I attended a Joan Baez concert where the Norwegian emcee said to Ms. Baez "Welcome to one-third of the civilized world". The other two-thirds were thought to be Denmark and Sweden. Apparently Iceland didn't make the cut. Nor, of course, did Finland. Some people seem to have a rather narrow view of what constitutes a "civilized" country. I have a somewhat broader view, although I would have to think carefully about Russia. Hmmm, let's see: Great literature; a history of intellectual accomplishment in math and the sciences; decent vodka; and wonderful, cheap lenses (have to keep this "on topic"!). I guess they make the cut!

Dan
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