Suggestion for Large Group Portrait Lens

Docrwm · 11-14-2018, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by BruceBanner

Ok... I've been watching various Wide Angle and Ultra Wide angle reviews of lenses all morning and this is the conclusion I'm coming to.

Wide Angle is just not good for a group, or rather it's not good for a group shot where you are not leaving enough space from the people on the edges of the group shot to the edge of the actual shot. If they are close to the edge they will look weird and distorted, even if they are sharp as is some cases with certain WA lenses.

Fish Eye is out, because after looking at half a dozen hemi corrected shots I still think it looks a bit bizarre, not the kinda look you really want for a school class shot (unless someone can convince me otherwise).

For me, I like a decent gap around a group photo (if space restriction is not an issue). The shot on the boat above I was indeed unable to back up further, but another meter of backing up and I would have had a better frames shot as well as less distortion to the outer edge chaps.
Thankfully I should have plenty of room to back up in for the school photos as they always seem to be held outside.

So then... if aiming to have a group class shot that easily has a persons width between the outer edges of the people in the shot to the edge of the frame, still wanting fantastic uniformed sharpness across the frame, something that won't distort etc... what's a good prime lens?

I say prime as it just cuts down size and bulk, as all my other lenses are primes also.

So... is going to 20mm too far? 24? 31? 35? At what point does distortion kick in near the edges? Hmm....

Perhaps time to grab a green DA 21?

Staged group shots with descent lighting were made for MF lenses.

BrianR · 11-14-2018, 08:59 PM

Originally posted by clackers

BTW, for an individual portrait on a sunny day, a standard white translucent shoot through umbrella can be pressed into service as a scrim.

The fairly standard 43' translucent shoot through umbrella will work as a scrim for mid sized groups of standard sized people.

**dms** · 11-14-2018, 09:23 PM

You asked " So... is going to 20mm too far? 24? 31? 35? At what point does distortion kick in near the edges? "

There is no point where it starts. It is there at all FL's, just more so with decreasing FL (increasing angle of view). You could take a zoom lens (or several lenses w/ varying FL's) and set up some models/plaster heads and move in close w/ wide FL and then move back keeping same FOV by increasing FL. And then compare--you have to decide when it is too obvious, or rather guess when your subjects will find it so.

**clackers** · 11-14-2018, 10:04 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by BrianR

The fairly standard 43' translucent shoot through umbrella will work as a scrim for mid sized groups of standard sized people.

In Lilliput maybe, Brian. 43 inches, not feet, this is the Spinal Tap debacle all over again!

**UncleVanya** · 11-15-2018, 05:31 AM

Originally posted by Brooke Meyer

It depends. Photo purpose? Venue size? Control and setup time? I show up with a DA 12-24 and a 17-70. And I've always been paid.

Yup. I think there's some over thinking going on.

bdery · 11-15-2018, 05:51 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Sandy Hancock

Rectilinear wide angle lenses distort the edges. The wider they are, the more they distort. You can't escape that.

Originally posted by BruceBanner

I would like to hear more about the Laowa 12. Do you think it might be suitable for group portrait work, or just too wide and distorted (even though it has fine edge sharpness)?

While I wouldn't use that lens for group portraits, and while I agree with your comments in general, the previously mentioned Laowa 12mm distorts much, much less than many lenses with longer focal lengths. It's impressive.

Bruce, it's an excellent lens. Its main problem for group portraits is not distortion, it's mostly perspective. It would be on my short list for anyone wishing to get an ultrawide, but for groups? No. For landscapes, strangely framed "macro", night photos, etc, it shines.

angerdan · 11-15-2018, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by Sandy Hancock

In some ways it's even better than my FA*24.

The FA* 24mm 2.0 is the lens i would recommend to Bruce.
pentaxforums.com/lensreviews/SMC-Pentax-FA-Star-24mm-F2-Lens.html
opticallimits.com/pentax/121-pentax-smc-fa-24mm-f2-al-if-review--lab-test-report
opticallimits.com/pentax/136-pentax-smc-fa-20-35mm-f4-al-review--lab-test

**BruceBanner** · 11-15-2018, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by UncleVanya

Yup. I think there's some over thinking going on.

Me!? Over thinking?!? Never!

But in all seriousness I wondered if there was a general agreed FL that was deemed too wide to go for group portrait work. WA and UWA have their place in landscape work of course, and the distortion seems to ease off the less wide you go, so the thread was a serious question, at what FL point do people appear 'acceptably' distorted for a group shot.

We all know that 135/2, 85/1.4, 50/1.4's etc, they all make nice solo portrait work. If shooting 2-4 people you need to stop down etc, but then also further back. I see group portrait shots as actually very difficult stuff, you don't want to see just a sea of heads varying in softness and sharpness, you want to accomplish something decent and my head says there must be a combination of FL and gap at the edges which provides the best balance overall, sharp faces and bodies from edge to edge and maximum resolution etc. Believe me I have tried taking some group shots before and they're just the kinda stuff ready for the bin

Originally posted by angerdan

The FA* 24mm 2.0 is the lens i would recommend to Bruce.
pentaxforums.com/lensreviews/SMC-Pentax-FA-Star-24mm-F2-Lens.html
opticallimits.com/pentax/121-pentax-smc-fa-24mm-f2-al-if-review--lab-test-report
opticallimits.com/pentax/136-pentax-smc-fa-20-35mm-f4-al-review--lab-test

I have a SMC Pentax-A 24/2.8, I'm going to try some experimentation with that lens to see at what point I am encountering distortion (if any). A large group of people I don't really have, but I can put my 3 family members in a single line, one middle, one on each edge, something to resemble a front row and see what the two on the edges look like at varying apertures. I'll aim to shoot them with a good persons width gap from the edge, I might post the results here.

The FA* 24 has grabbed my attention, I'd quite like to shoot my own A24/2.8 at 2.8 for portrait work but find it very difficult to nail focus shooting that wide. The idea of replacing the A24/2.8 with a 24/2 with AF is very attractive for other purposes than group portrait work.

Thanks!

normhead · 11-15-2018, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by BruceBanner

Me!? Over thinking?!? Never!

Sometimes ah sits and thinks... and sometimes ah just sits.

11-15-2018, 10:49 AM	#52
angerdan Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,639	*FA 24mm 2.0 ED IF** Originally posted by Sandy Hancock In some ways it's even better than my FA24. The FA 24mm 2.0 is the lens i would recommend to Bruce. pentaxforums.com/lensreviews/SMC-Pentax-FA-Star-24mm-F2-Lens.html opticallimits.com/pentax/121-pentax-smc-fa-24mm-f2-al-if-review--lab-test-report opticallimits.com/pentax/136-pentax-smc-fa-20-35mm-f4-al-review--lab-test

11-15-2018, 12:16 PM	#53
BruceBanner Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 5,404 Original Poster	Originally posted by UncleVanya Yup. I think there's some over thinking going on. Me!? Over thinking?!? Never! But in all seriousness I wondered if there was a general agreed FL that was deemed too wide to go for group portrait work. WA and UWA have their place in landscape work of course, and the distortion seems to ease off the less wide you go, so the thread was a serious question, at what FL point do people appear 'acceptably' distorted for a group shot. We all know that 135/2, 85/1.4, 50/1.4's etc, they all make nice solo portrait work. If shooting 2-4 people you need to stop down etc, but then also further back. I see group portrait shots as actually very difficult stuff, you don't want to see just a sea of heads varying in softness and sharpness, you want to accomplish something decent and my head says there must be a combination of FL and gap at the edges which provides the best balance overall, sharp faces and bodies from edge to edge and maximum resolution etc. Believe me I have tried taking some group shots before and they're just the kinda stuff ready for the bin Originally posted by angerdan The FA* 24mm 2.0 is the lens i would recommend to Bruce. pentaxforums.com/lensreviews/SMC-Pentax-FA-Star-24mm-F2-Lens.html opticallimits.com/pentax/121-pentax-smc-fa-24mm-f2-al-if-review--lab-test-report opticallimits.com/pentax/136-pentax-smc-fa-20-35mm-f4-al-review--lab-test I have a SMC Pentax-A 24/2.8, I'm going to try some experimentation with that lens to see at what point I am encountering distortion (if any). A large group of people I don't really have, but I can put my 3 family members in a single line, one middle, one on each edge, something to resemble a front row and see what the two on the edges look like at varying apertures. I'll aim to shoot them with a good persons width gap from the edge, I might post the results here. The FA* 24 has grabbed my attention, I'd quite like to shoot my own A24/2.8 at 2.8 for portrait work but find it very difficult to nail focus shooting that wide. The idea of replacing the A24/2.8 with a 24/2 with AF is very attractive for other purposes than group portrait work. Thanks! Last edited by BruceBanner; 11-15-2018 at 12:23 PM.

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11-14-2018, 08:47 PM	#46
Docrwm Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Somewhere in the Southern US Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,285	Originally posted by BruceBanner Ok... I've been watching various Wide Angle and Ultra Wide angle reviews of lenses all morning and this is the conclusion I'm coming to. Wide Angle is just not good for a group, or rather it's not good for a group shot where you are not leaving enough space from the people on the edges of the group shot to the edge of the actual shot. If they are close to the edge they will look weird and distorted, even if they are sharp as is some cases with certain WA lenses. Fish Eye is out, because after looking at half a dozen hemi corrected shots I still think it looks a bit bizarre, not the kinda look you really want for a school class shot (unless someone can convince me otherwise). For me, I like a decent gap around a group photo (if space restriction is not an issue). The shot on the boat above I was indeed unable to back up further, but another meter of backing up and I would have had a better frames shot as well as less distortion to the outer edge chaps. Thankfully I should have plenty of room to back up in for the school photos as they always seem to be held outside. So then... if aiming to have a group class shot that easily has a persons width between the outer edges of the people in the shot to the edge of the frame, still wanting fantastic uniformed sharpness across the frame, something that won't distort etc... what's a good prime lens? I say prime as it just cuts down size and bulk, as all my other lenses are primes also. So... is going to 20mm too far? 24? 31? 35? At what point does distortion kick in near the edges? Hmm.... Perhaps time to grab a green DA 21? Staged group shots with descent lighting were made for MF lenses.

11-14-2018, 08:59 PM	#47
BrianR Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Ontario Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,332	Originally posted by clackers BTW, for an individual portrait on a sunny day, a standard white translucent shoot through umbrella can be pressed into service as a scrim. The fairly standard 43' translucent shoot through umbrella will work as a scrim for mid sized groups of standard sized people.

11-14-2018, 09:23 PM	#48
dms Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: New York, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,192	You asked " So... is going to 20mm too far? 24? 31? 35? At what point does distortion kick in near the edges? " There is no point where it starts. It is there at all FL's, just more so with decreasing FL (increasing angle of view). You could take a zoom lens (or several lenses w/ varying FL's) and set up some models/plaster heads and move in close w/ wide FL and then move back keeping same FOV by increasing FL. And then compare--you have to decide when it is too obvious, or rather guess when your subjects will find it so.

11-14-2018, 10:04 PM - 2 Likes	#49
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by BrianR The fairly standard 43' translucent shoot through umbrella will work as a scrim for mid sized groups of standard sized people. In Lilliput maybe, Brian. 43 inches, not feet, this is the Spinal Tap debacle all over again!

11-15-2018, 05:31 AM	#50
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,401	Originally posted by Brooke Meyer It depends. Photo purpose? Venue size? Control and setup time? I show up with a DA 12-24 and a 17-70. And I've always been paid. Yup. I think there's some over thinking going on.

11-15-2018, 05:51 AM - 1 Like	#51
bdery Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Quebec city, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,357	Originally posted by Sandy Hancock Rectilinear wide angle lenses distort the edges. The wider they are, the more they distort. You can't escape that. Originally posted by BruceBanner I would like to hear more about the Laowa 12. Do you think it might be suitable for group portrait work, or just too wide and distorted (even though it has fine edge sharpness)? While I wouldn't use that lens for group portraits, and while I agree with your comments in general, the previously mentioned Laowa 12mm distorts much, much less than many lenses with longer focal lengths. It's impressive. Bruce, it's an excellent lens. Its main problem for group portraits is not distortion, it's mostly perspective. It would be on my short list for anyone wishing to get an ultrawide, but for groups? No. For landscapes, strangely framed "macro", night photos, etc, it shines.

11-15-2018, 12:24 PM	#54
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by BruceBanner Me!? Over thinking?!? Never! Sometimes ah sits and thinks... and sometimes ah just sits.