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11-23-2021, 10:10 AM   #91
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Whoever is hoping Ricoh to come up with a 400/2.8.

One word >> Never.

Unless (and i'm purely imagining things here, but it is ok to imagine, sometimes).

1) somehow, there be enough of professional photographers and enough of advanced enthusiasts who simply much prefer OVF than EVF and decide that "ok, i'm going Pentax since they are the only ones with OVF these days".
(And by "enough", that means enough number of them come over to Pentax-land such that globally, Pentax share of the overall camera market increase to perhaps 12%, 13%)

2) BUT, likelihood of that ......
seemingly very little cuz it is a Chook and Egg situation.

Ricoh aint making no such lens unless more people become Pentax users.
BUT, there ain't going to be more becoming Pentax users (ie 12-13% of users globally) cuz they are thinking "Unless Ricoh pumps out a 300/2.8, 400/2.8, 500/4.5, 600/5.6, i ain't going over to Pentax".

Else, Ricoh could work with Sigma and Tamron to produce limited numbers of some lenses (by gathering users who are interested and willing to place a deposit for the lenses).
Lenses such as their 150-600 zooms, or something like the Sigma 500/4, Sigma 120-300/2.8 etc.

But. Dreaming.
Dreaming is free.
So, carry on dreaming.

** but seriously though.
Am hoping Ricoh rebadge Tamron's superb 150-600 G2.

11-23-2021, 10:23 AM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by loyalt Quote
And, for us prof. sports photographers who actually need the f2.8 for indoor sports, like indoor track, this length and aperture is a must to compete with the other brands. All other major brands have one; why not Pentax?
QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Begin saving for a different brand. Pigs will learn to fly before Pentax makes a 400/2.8

---------- Post added Nov 23rd, 2021 at 11:04 AM ----------



For what you want to make sense, there needs to be more than a snowball's chance in hell of them breaking into what is both a very specialized market, but also a very tiny market.
To do that they would have to be offering on-site repairs at all major sporting events, plus have a loaner service available, both at major sporting events and available as overnight delivery to photographers with broken equipment.
And then they would have to entice enough photographers away from the major brands to make it worthwhile.
Or Ricoh would have to be willing to light suitcases full of money on fire and throw them out the window.

Frankly, the snowball has a better chance in hell than any the above happening.
To answer this point perhaps a little better, major sports photographers donít actually pay for their gear, their publishers do, and the support wheatfield outlines costs money, and most camera companies donít actually make money with their pro support, they use this as advertising for the masses. Given that the other brands are seeing massive market shrinkage, and many publications are cutting back on photographic services, why would Pentax put the company at risk to start supporting a dying market.

For me, a 400/2.8 is not needed, I currently shoot the 560/5.6 and find it fast enough to hand hold with the current bodies, like the K1MKII and their high iso capabilities.

As many posters have said in this thread, things have moved on since tripods and ISO100 film.

What would perhaps be of interest, is a full frame 1.4x TC specifically aimed at the DA560, and over time perhaps stretching the 560 out to 600 mm and getting a big better close focus capabilities, because not every bird I photograph is a great blue heron, and a warbler is still pretty small in the viewfinder at minimum focus distance of the DA560
11-23-2021, 11:38 AM - 1 Like   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by termy Quote
Ricoh aint making no such lens unless more people become Pentax users.
BUT, there ain't going to be more becoming Pentax users (ie 12-13% of users globally) cuz they are thinking "Unless Ricoh pumps out a 300/2.8, 400/2.8, 500/4.5, 600/5.6, i ain't going over to Pentax".
I've been doing my part in showcasing what that old legend glass can do with astro shooting.and getting people to be impressed with the results even compared to more modern lenses from others. That said even on the used market spending $3000 for a lens is hard to justify for an individual, let alone the $12,000 similar new lenses. I have a specific use case where a huge slab of glass is really the only solution and there are likely more amature astrophotographers than there are amature sports photographers who would benefit from a modern 400/2.8 lens but both markets are small. So lets play things out. Ricoh decides that yes they do need a new gigantic slab of glass lens that they can sell to those few who have money to burn. The SMC A* 400/2.8 is a great lens and is as good or better than the modern offerings from others but is rather dated not having modern coating, not autofocus, and not having a fancy filter drawer allowing for polarizing filters. The lens however is internal focus so offers some benefit. So now lets say they basically update the old A* 400/2.8 with SDM, modern coatings and make it so that the filter drawer can support polarizing filters as in theory this wouldn't cost much to design since most of it is already there and now we have a modern DFA * 400/2.8 ED [IF] SDM WR lens. Given that the last time these slabs of glass were for sale they were basically special order items they would be again which means managing stock isn't as big of a deal but getting one will take a while unless you order from B&H or Adorama where they might keep 1 in stock. Since it is a special order item it will likely cost at least $12,000. Also the last time these lenses were sold new Pentax was a much larger brand but even then how many lenses like this did they sell in a year? I can't imagine it was more than a handful probably measured in the few tens of lenses maybe a hundred a year. Another thing that will be missing is that even a 400/2.8 isn't enough in some cases so now lets look at getting a 1.4 and 2x converter for it. Here again we already have one great solution and one workable one. The old SMC A 1.4X-L converter is great and here just updated it so that it can pass the electrical stuff for a modern DFA lens but also include support for screw drive AF and mechanical aperture but update the coatings and make it weather resistant. However the SMC A 2X-L could be improved upon, so this time really optimize that converter so it really is matched to the 400/2.8 with all the other necessary updates to make it modern. Now with all that we now have 3 things people can buy so they can shoot a modern Pentax bazooka lens and for me I might buy 1 of them because if a modern DFA 2X-L converter really is optimized and matched to a 400/2.8 it should be head and shoulders above the old A 2X-l and I would like better image quality than that old converter offers.

So after all of that R&D, tooling, and manufacturing we have 3 items that will see limited purchase because the largest buyers of such things (news companies and the like) aren't Pentax shooters but are tending towards Sony from Canon and Nikon leaving mostly a market of people like myself and a few others who really need a big slab of glass. How many people do you think will go out and buy that? I don't think many and I say that as someone who would love to see Pentax make some modern bazooka lenses but getting an 800/5.6 or even better an 800/4 (we are dreaming stuff up right) I do realize that it isn't really feasible for a smaller company that serves a niche that while very loyal is still small. Focusing on things like a great 50, or special lenses like the Limiteds where they will get a lot more buyers and possibly get converts is probably a much better idea. If I were king of Ricoh for a day I would take that thinking in mind and decide that they should showcase the astro abilities more and have modern lenses they put out also be great astro lenses as well as being items to win converts from more normal shooting conditions. To that end getting a great ultrawide FF astro lens (assuming the 21 limited isn't), a great FF wide astro lens, and a great moderate FF telephoto (135mm to 200mm at f/2) would be things I would look to have developed. These are spots in the FF lineup that would provide utility to both regular shooters and astro shooters while setting Pentax apart from other brands.

For a wide my suggestion would be start with the SMC K 35/2 and get it to a f/1.4, have less vignetting, and get it so it is superchromat lens. For the moderate telephoto I would basically say they should partner up with Samyang/Rokinon and see about gettign the 135/2 UMC with Pentax coatings, SDM autofocus, and WR as that lens is a killer lens even if it does vignett wide open.
11-23-2021, 03:44 PM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by termy Quote
Whoever is hoping Ricoh to come up with a 400/2.8.

One word >> Never.

Unless (and i'm purely imagining things here, but it is ok to imagine, sometimes).

1) somehow, there be enough of professional photographers and enough of advanced enthusiasts who simply much prefer OVF than EVF and decide that "ok, i'm going Pentax since they are the only ones with OVF these days".
(And by "enough", that means enough number of them come over to Pentax-land such that globally, Pentax share of the overall camera market increase to perhaps 12%, 13%)

2) BUT, likelihood of that ......
seemingly very little cuz it is a Chook and Egg situation.

Ricoh aint making no such lens unless more people become Pentax users.
BUT, there ain't going to be more becoming Pentax users (ie 12-13% of users globally) cuz they are thinking "Unless Ricoh pumps out a 300/2.8, 400/2.8, 500/4.5, 600/5.6, i ain't going over to Pentax".

Else, Ricoh could work with Sigma and Tamron to produce limited numbers of some lenses (by gathering users who are interested and willing to place a deposit for the lenses).
Lenses such as their 150-600 zooms, or something like the Sigma 500/4, Sigma 120-300/2.8 etc.

But. Dreaming.
Dreaming is free.
So, carry on dreaming.

** but seriously though.
Am hoping Ricoh rebadge Tamron's superb 150-600 G2.
I would have a more reasonable proposal. You pay Ricoh development costs and we enjoy the result. What about that?

11-23-2021, 06:46 PM - 1 Like   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by UlrichSchiegg Quote
I would have a more reasonable proposal. You pay Ricoh development costs and we enjoy the result. What about that?

IF money was not an issue (and there are some for whom money is not an issue), i wouldn't mind putting perhaps USD200,000, USD300,000 to Ricoh and tell them, "hey guys, how about reverse engineer the Nikon 500PF? Here, this is my contribution to that"

Or "how about updating the DA560? Give it a new motor, improve the AF speed, and turn that damn tripod foot to face the other way".

Of course, i do not know if that's enough to get them interested or maybe even usd300,000 isnt even enough to move them an inch.

Perhaps, where i am, i see many people with money to burn.

I see so many Sony users with the Sony 600/4, or Canon users with their 600/4, that i wonder, it cannot be that Sony or Canon sponsors so many of them.

I even see many teenagers who are toting the Sony 200-600 or the Nikon 200-500 f5.6 (obviously those were gotten under a FMS, in which 'FMS' = 'Father-Mother Sponsorship")

And i really mean "teenagers".
I saw kids around 15, 16 years of age, toting a D500 with 200-500, or a Sony A6400/A6500 with the 200-600.

Granted, the 200-500 and 200-600 are not "expensive" (relatively speaking, that is).
But, if parents are of the mindset of not batting an eyelid shelling out SGD3000, 4000, 5000 on a hobby of their teenage kids, that does show, there really are those adults who have and able to and don't hesitate about plonking down USD8000 to USD12000 on lenses for hobbies.

Anyway, on something that is more possible.
Seriously, am hoping Ricoh consider to rebadge the Tamron 150-600 G2.

IF they really arent going to update the 250-600, then rebadge the Tamron.
11-23-2021, 08:23 PM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by loyalt Quote
And, for us prof. sports photographers who actually need the f2.8 for indoor sports, like indoor track, this length and aperture is a must to compete with the other brands. All other major brands have one; why not Pentax?
I think for Pentax to make a 400/2.8, they would probably need to do something like what Olympus has done with their 150-400/4.5: build them in batches when enough orders come in to make it worthwhile. I don't think Ricoh would be willing to work that way, and I don't think there would be enough orders to do that, anyway.

Sony and Canon can produce 400/2.8's because they have huge users bases relative to Pentax, user bases who not only buy but also rent. And for such a lens - a high-end professional lens that is "mission-critical" - to be saleable in the US, Pentax would need to have a professional-level service and support system for it, and they do not have that here.

I agree with @termy that what we could realistically hope for is a lens based on the Tamron 150-600.
11-23-2021, 10:11 PM   #97
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Yes, pretty clear 400 2.8 won't happen. That lens didn't even make the cut to get produced during the FA years. More Pentaxians (I gather) shoot wildlife than sports, so 600 4 would seem more likely if we did see anything with a front filter over 112mm, but still... not gonna happen.


I do think it's reasonable to hope for one new very long prime at some point.
If I could get my way, a 300 2.8 or 400 4 would be released at the same time as a new FF AF 1.7x TC, and the price would be... high but not astronomical, I'll say. Something like 2x the cost of their flagship camera, not 4-5x (I too can dream).
If they really wanted to impress, something cute like 350 2.8 or 400 3.5, or maybe 300 2.8 or 200 2.0 with a built in 2x... that would be just fine...

11-24-2021, 12:52 AM   #98
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I think a 400 2.8 is too small a niche. Pentax is already not very widespread, most "pros" are already with Canon, Nikon and maybe Sony. Pentax would have a hard time there. The autofocus got better than the , but still not on the same level as the competition.
Pentax should concentrate on its "core competence".
11-24-2021, 01:51 AM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by MossyRocks Quote
For a wide my suggestion would be start with the SMC K 35/2 and get it to a f/1.4, have less vignetting, and get it so it is superchromat lens. For the moderate telephoto I would basically say they should partner up with Samyang/Rokinon and see about gettign the 135/2 UMC with Pentax coatings, SDM autofocus, and WR as that lens is a killer lens even if it does vignett wide open.
That's a great idea. Anyone from Ricoh listening in over here? I'd prefer that many times over a new 400/2.8.
11-24-2021, 07:40 AM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by HoutHans Quote
That's a great idea. Anyone from Ricoh listening in over here? I'd prefer that many times over a new 400/2.8.
I thought so and if we are dreaming of things that seems like a much better dream than a new 400/2.8 or other huge slabs of glass. Granted a really good 35/1.4 like what I am thinking or a 135/2 would still have a big slab of glass it would be nothing like the huge ones others dream of. Unfortunatly I don't think anyone from Ricoh really lurks these forums and even if they did they seem to do their own thing but their own thing tends to be pretty awesome. Also those lenses wouldn't just be great astro lenses but would be some great high end offerings for regular shooters and help fill out the FF lens line up. I just wish they would throw some more support to those of us who use one of the really unique features that does set Pentax apart from others. The K-3iii and O-GPS2 were some nice additions to the astro capabilities (I want both) but those fall under the bodies are replaceable glass is forever thinking. For a superchromat lens having it focus Ha, red, green, and blue would be a killer feature again throwing some support for the astro capabilities of the cameras.
11-24-2021, 11:12 PM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by MossyRocks Quote
I thought so and if we are dreaming of things that seems like a much better dream than a new 400/2.8 or other huge slabs of glass. Granted a really good 35/1.4 like what I am thinking or a 135/2 would still have a big slab of glass it would be nothing like the huge ones others dream of. Unfortunatly I don't think anyone from Ricoh really lurks these forums and even if they did they seem to do their own thing but their own thing tends to be pretty awesome. Also those lenses wouldn't just be great astro lenses but would be some great high end offerings for regular shooters and help fill out the FF lens line up. I just wish they would throw some more support to those of us who use one of the really unique features that does set Pentax apart from others. The K-3iii and O-GPS2 were some nice additions to the astro capabilities (I want both) but those fall under the bodies are replaceable glass is forever thinking. For a superchromat lens having it focus Ha, red, green, and blue would be a killer feature again throwing some support for the astro capabilities of the cameras.
Indeed, something more along the lines of affordable astrophotocapability, though I'm unsure how much extra sales that would generate. You can have a superchromat reflecting telescope, if that's any consolation?
11-25-2021, 12:44 AM   #102
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The appearance of the K-3iii might lead one to believe that a longer prime lens for wildlife or sports photography would be a natural follow-up, but I daresay the DFA150-450 is destined to cover that role for some time to come.

Until the DA560 was discontinued, there may have been a slim chance that the simple, 6-element, 3-group design could be adapted to form a 400mm F4, but I doubt that’s a possibility now. There could have been some saving on development and manufacturing costs, so that’s a pity, but I daresay the slow uptake of the 560 wouldn’t have encouraged Ricoh to think that way.
11-25-2021, 04:44 AM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by HoutHans Quote
Indeed, something more along the lines of affordable astrophotocapability, though I'm unsure how much extra sales that would generate. You can have a superchromat reflecting telescope, if that's any consolation?
Yes but I doubt anyone there is a 35mm focal length reflector. I'm not sure how many additional sales Pentax would get by making lenses that cater to astro shooters but there my thinking was that if they made a lens that performs exceptionally well when doing astro shooting it will do just fine when doing regular shooting since astro is so punishing. That give a reason for other to buy it while also differentiating themselves from the competition even if it is mostly for the purpose of advertising. However for those who make use of that feature it becomes a godsend.
11-25-2021, 04:56 AM   #104
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I wonder how many DA 560s have been sold by Pentax. Maybe the initial production batch has been sold and they just didn't want to continue an older design.
11-25-2021, 05:40 AM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
To answer this point perhaps a little better, major sports photographers don’t actually pay for their gear, their publishers do, and the support wheatfield outlines costs money, and most camera companies don’t actually make money with their pro support, they use this as advertising for the masses. Given that the other brands are seeing massive market shrinkage, and many publications are cutting back on photographic services, why would Pentax put the company at risk to start supporting a dying market.

For me, a 400/2.8 is not needed, I currently shoot the 560/5.6 and find it fast enough to hand hold with the current bodies, like the K1MKII and their high iso capabilities.

As many posters have said in this thread, things have moved on since tripods and ISO100 film.

What would perhaps be of interest, is a full frame 1.4x TC specifically aimed at the DA560, and over time perhaps stretching the 560 out to 600 mm and getting a big better close focus capabilities, because not every bird I photograph is a great blue heron, and a warbler is still pretty small in the viewfinder at minimum focus distance of the DA560
For me, my “DA 77-420mm PLM” {DA 55-300mm PLM + DA 1.4TC} is fine. I don’t see why Pentax would issue any ‘fast’ prime lens the way modern Pentax bodies handles high ISO values. I believe they have problems selling any really long lens.
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