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07-07-2020, 01:34 PM - 1 Like   #1
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DFA 70-210mm, wind ...and nearly a hospital visit ...

Yes, I know about wind and tripod vibrations, well I do in theory. My physically longest lens, which I've used on a tripod, is the DA*50-135 - used it with no ill effects in the wind. However, the DFA 70-210 seems to be more prone to vibrations than any previous lens I've owned (many). I wonder if it's because of its length v comparative lightness?

I tried my new lens on a mid range Manfrotto carbon tripod (https://www.manfrotto.com/uk-en/190-go-carbon-4-section-camera-tripod-with-t...s-mt190goc4tb/) and mid range 3-way head (https://www.manfrotto.com/uk-en/x-pro-3-way-tripod-head-with-retractable-levers-mhxpro-3w/), rated at many kg greater than K-1 and 70-210 combo. Every thing locked down. All the usual tricks to stabilise eg bag to weight, plus higher shutter speed, MUP etc, but still vibrations. I'll try a heavier, similar priced, aluminium tripod tomorrow to compare. To be honest, I've never been 100% sure whether carbon tripods are as good as comparable Al versions - they do seem to have a little more movement and thus maybe they resonate a little more.

Anyone struggled with this lens in the wind? I suppose I'd ignored wind issues before, perhaps as I've tended to use metal primes, primarily and stumpier zooms eg DFA 24-70.

And now to the (not) funny incident. Somehow I got my thumb trapped in the tripod head between 2nd and 3rd joint. It was firmly wedged in under the plate. Every adjustment of the levers was very painful. Luckily I was 15 mins from home, so I walked back with tripod painfully, dangling from thumb with camera wound round my neck. My wife saw the funny side, initially, before she realised I was indeed properly trapped. At home with the camera off my neck and tripod back on solid ground, we eventually managed to find the exact arrangements of the three levers that allowed me to force my thumb out of the head. It was far from easy. We were close to giving up and taking ourselves off to get it cut off - tripod head that is. I wonder how I'd have managed to drive home if I'd not been a walkable distance ... ?

07-07-2020, 01:49 PM - 1 Like   #2
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Ouch! Fascinating story none-the-less. Glad you made it home and extracted yourself.
As far as driving, you would have had to hitch hike using your other thumb.
07-07-2020, 01:50 PM   #3
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I have a bungee cord that is long enough to wrap around the legs at the first extension lock and fasten snugly, but not overly tight. That seems to do a pretty good job of vibrations. I'm using a fairly large Feisol CF tripod and one of their heads these days. I don't have issues with vibrations with it, though like you I tend to use smaller primes.
The Feisol I am using is substantially larger and heavier than your Manfrotto 190. I had the metal version of that one and found it too lightweight and vibration prone.
I am using the DFA*85/1.4 on the Feisol, which is a pretty heavy lens, heavier by quite a bit than the 70-210, with no issues.
I was using the 70-210 today in a reasonable breeze, again with no vibration problems.
One thing I have noticed is that many Pentax cameras vibrate enough to cause problems in the speeds between about 1/8 and 1/60 second. The K1 isn't as bad as other Pentax cameras I have used, the K3, K20 & K10 all had vibration issues as did some of the film cameras, the Super Program in particular.
I think part of the problem is that the bodies are light enough to allow mirror/ shutter slap to be a problem.
07-07-2020, 02:00 PM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I have a bungee cord that is long enough to wrap around the legs at the first extension lock and fasten snugly, but not overly tight. That seems to do a pretty good job of vibrations. I'm using a fairly large Feisol CF tripod and one of their heads these days. I don't have issues with vibrations with it, though like you I tend to use smaller primes.
The Feisol I am using is substantially larger and heavier than your Manfrotto 190. I had the metal version of that one and found it too lightweight and vibration prone.
I am using the DFA*85/1.4 on the Feisol, which is a pretty heavy lens, heavier by quite a bit than the 70-210, with no issues.
I was using the 70-210 today in a reasonable breeze, again with no vibration problems.
One thing I have noticed is that many Pentax cameras vibrate enough to cause problems in the speeds between about 1/8 and 1/60 second. The K1 isn't as bad as other Pentax cameras I have used, the K3, K20 & K10 all had vibration issues as did some of the film cameras, the Super Program in particular.
I think part of the problem is that the bodies are light enough to allow mirror/ shutter slap to be a problem.
Bill, I wondered about the mirror slap so I upped the shutter speed greater than 1/200, but still got the problem. It was the wind that was the issue as it gusted, I could see in LV at 10x the image vibrating all over the place. I'll experiment with the heavy tripod and shield it from the wind at the next opportunity.

---------- Post added 07-07-20 at 10:02 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by swanlefitte Quote
Ouch! Fascinating story none-the-less. Glad you made it home and extracted yourself.
As far as driving, you would have had to hitch hike using your other thumb.
Not in a Covid world!

07-07-2020, 02:21 PM - 2 Likes   #5
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It sounds like you're getting to the point where upgrading in one place starts exposing limitations of gear in other places, and the constant cycle of escalation becomes quite costly to solve.

I have the exact same Carbon 190go! tripod as you, but as soon as I started shooting telephoto more often I went bigger and stiffer. I still use the 190go! as a secondary tripod for home/studio work and lightweight travel.

Can i offer a few more suggestions (that you may have already tried)?

1) If you can get away with it, try the same setup without the lens hood attached. It catches a lot of wind, creates a lot more turbulent airflow, and applies extra torque on your setup since it's so far away from the fixed point of rotation.
2) Dropping your tripod lower can help. If you're reeling in leg sections, start by retracting the skinniest, lowest legs first.
3) If you can go close to the ground, angling those legs further than the first notch can help too.
4) Look for setup opportunities to shield yourself from the wind. Trees/walls/whatever you can find.
5) You can use your body as a wind screen. Position yourself as close as you can to your camera/lens blocking the wind, and use a remote cable to trigger the shutter.

I'll probably think of more right after clicking "reply", and I bet there's a pile of other ways that our friends here can think of.

BTW - as one last aside, when considering tripods I really recommend reading through The Center Column – Independent Tripod Testing. Even if some of the metrics fly over most of our heads, it can give you a real sense for how to quantify differences between tons of frequently-used tripods. Their governing Rankings table presents a ton of useful info. Rankings – The Center Column
07-07-2020, 10:02 PM   #6
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Carbon is light for travel, but not good for wind. Add weight, strap it down, shield it, ...
Next tripod head will most likely not come from Manfrotto for you. Check out all clamps and moving parts next time.
07-07-2020, 10:10 PM   #7
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I don't have the lens, but to me that lens is pretty long and a little weighty to not have a tripod collar, if you are mounting it directly under the camera you are putting more stress on the mount, but maybe light enough to use that length to "bounce" a little in the wind. Maybe is you can use a longer plate you can move the camera back a little and balance it better. I have also heard that some carbon tripods really need to be weighted down in the wind because it has more flex in it.
07-07-2020, 10:58 PM - 1 Like   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by BarryE Quote
Yes, I know about wind and tripod vibrations, well I do in theory. My physically longest lens, which I've used on a tripod, is the DA*50-135 - used it with no ill effects in the wind. However, the DFA 70-210 seems to be more prone to vibrations than any previous lens I've owned (many). I wonder if it's because of its length v comparative lightness?

I tried my new lens on a mid range Manfrotto carbon tripod (https://www.manfrotto.com/uk-en/190-go-carbon-4-section-camera-tripod-with-t...s-mt190goc4tb/) and mid range 3-way head (https://www.manfrotto.com/uk-en/x-pro-3-way-tripod-head-with-retractable-levers-mhxpro-3w/), rated at many kg greater than K-1 and 70-210 combo. Every thing locked down. All the usual tricks to stabilise eg bag to weight, plus higher shutter speed, MUP etc, but still vibrations. I'll try a heavier, similar priced, aluminium tripod tomorrow to compare. To be honest, I've never been 100% sure whether carbon tripods are as good as comparable Al versions - they do seem to have a little more movement and thus maybe they resonate a little more.

Anyone struggled with this lens in the wind? I suppose I'd ignored wind issues before, perhaps as I've tended to use metal primes, primarily and stumpier zooms eg DFA 24-70.

And now to the (not) funny incident. Somehow I got my thumb trapped in the tripod head between 2nd and 3rd joint. It was firmly wedged in under the plate. Every adjustment of the levers was very painful. Luckily I was 15 mins from home, so I walked back with tripod painfully, dangling from thumb with camera wound round my neck. My wife saw the funny side, initially, before she realised I was indeed properly trapped. At home with the camera off my neck and tripod back on solid ground, we eventually managed to find the exact arrangements of the three levers that allowed me to force my thumb out of the head. It was far from easy. We were close to giving up and taking ourselves off to get it cut off - tripod head that is. I wonder how I'd have managed to drive home if I'd not been a walkable distance ... ?
A good tripod will reduce vibrations. But to have no vibrations, you need a very good tripod and not that much wind.If you want no vibration, then you should shelter the tripod from wind. Hey I can even feel my house move if there s a storm going on (it is a brick house).

07-07-2020, 11:46 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by disasterfilm Quote
It sounds like you're getting to the point where upgrading in one place starts exposing limitations of gear in other places, and the constant cycle of escalation becomes quite costly to solve.

I have the exact same Carbon 190go! tripod as you, but as soon as I started shooting telephoto more often I went bigger and stiffer. I still use the 190go! as a secondary tripod for home/studio work and lightweight travel.

Can i offer a few more suggestions (that you may have already tried)?

1) If you can get away with it, try the same setup without the lens hood attached. It catches a lot of wind, creates a lot more turbulent airflow, and applies extra torque on your setup since it's so far away from the fixed point of rotation.
2) Dropping your tripod lower can help. If you're reeling in leg sections, start by retracting the skinniest, lowest legs first.
3) If you can go close to the ground, angling those legs further than the first notch can help too.
4) Look for setup opportunities to shield yourself from the wind. Trees/walls/whatever you can find.
5) You can use your body as a wind screen. Position yourself as close as you can to your camera/lens blocking the wind, and use a remote cable to trigger the shutter.

I'll probably think of more right after clicking "reply", and I bet there's a pile of other ways that our friends here can think of.

BTW - as one last aside, when considering tripods I really recommend reading through The Center Column – Independent Tripod Testing. Even if some of the metrics fly over most of our heads, it can give you a real sense for how to quantify differences between tons of frequently-used tripods. Their governing Rankings table presents a ton of useful info. Rankings – The Center Column
Many thanks. The hood point is a good one I'll add that to my test list over the next few days. I'll take a look at the links you attached.

The 190Go! has been useful for hiking with shorter lenses. I use it with the 200pl plate across all my cameras/tripods etc so I don't have to make changes. This lens has probably exposed that approach.

---------- Post added 07-08-20 at 07:48 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by zapp Quote
Carbon is light for travel, but not good for wind. Add weight, strap it down, shield it, ...
Next tripod head will most likely not come from Manfrotto for you. Check out all clamps and moving parts next time.
Thanks. You may be right. The 200pl plate approach may be compromised too ...

---------- Post added 07-08-20 at 07:49 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by ramseybuckeye Quote
I don't have the lens, but to me that lens is pretty long and a little weighty to not have a tripod collar, if you are mounting it directly under the camera you are putting more stress on the mount, but maybe light enough to use that length to "bounce" a little in the wind. Maybe is you can use a longer plate you can move the camera back a little and balance it better. I have also heard that some carbon tripods really need to be weighted down in the wind because it has more flex in it.
Thank you. I'll take a look at the Tamron collar, but, and here we go again, it uses a different quick release ...

---------- Post added 07-08-20 at 07:53 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Macario Quote
A good tripod will reduce vibrations. But to have no vibrations, you need a very good tripod and not that much wind.If you want no vibration, then you should shelter the tripod from wind. Hey I can even feel my house move if there s a storm going on (it is a brick house).
You have a point, Macario A brick tripod, anyone ...?
07-08-2020, 04:00 AM - 1 Like   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by ramseybuckeye Quote
I don't have the lens, but to me that lens is pretty long and a little weighty to not have a tripod collar, if you are mounting it directly under the camera you are putting more stress on the mount, but maybe light enough to use that length to "bounce" a little in the wind. Maybe is you can use a longer plate you can move the camera back a little and balance it better. I have also heard that some carbon tripods really need to be weighted down in the wind because it has more flex in it.
Lens mounts can increase the effect of shutter/mirror induced bouncing. They are a compromise solution to alleviate stress on the lens mount and allow heavier equipment to balance on tripods that are too lightweight for what is being asked of them.
07-08-2020, 04:09 AM   #11
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The Tamron collar that was mentioned in the full review of this lens is an Arca style mount. My head uses Manfrotto 200pl (I use this across all my heads and cameras). Can the collar be attached securely to a 200pl plate does anyone know? Perhaps this might alleviate the movement I'm seeing ...? Thanks.
07-08-2020, 06:14 AM - 1 Like   #12
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I have had the same problems with the dfa 70-210 -- I started a thread about it here last fall where folks offered a lot of helpful advice: K-1 sensor shake/vibration while on tripod help - PentaxForums.com

In addition to some of the suggestions in the thread in the end I found the following most helpful -- use the heaviest tripod available to you, use the highest shutter speed possible, block as much wind with your body as possible and if you are comfortable doing so: attach the camera to the tripod and not the collar on the 70-210 -- this stabilized the sensor so it was not hanging in the wind where vibrations in the camera body transferred to the sensor. I know this increases the stress on the body but I found it helped a lot.
07-08-2020, 07:04 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by travelswsage Quote
I have had the same problems with the dfa 70-210 -- I started a thread about it here last fall where folks offered a lot of helpful advice: K-1 sensor shake/vibration while on tripod help - PentaxForums.com

In addition to some of the suggestions in the thread in the end I found the following most helpful -- use the heaviest tripod available to you, use the highest shutter speed possible, block as much wind with your body as possible and if you are comfortable doing so: attach the camera to the tripod and not the collar on the 70-210 -- this stabilized the sensor so it was not hanging in the wind where vibrations in the camera body transferred to the sensor. I know this increases the stress on the body but I found it helped a lot.
Many thanks. I'll take a look ...
07-08-2020, 07:34 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by travelswsage Quote
I have had the same problems with the dfa 70-210 -- I started a thread about it here last fall where folks offered a lot of helpful advice: K-1 sensor shake/vibration while on tripod help - PentaxForums.com

In addition to some of the suggestions in the thread in the end I found the following most helpful -- use the heaviest tripod available to you, use the highest shutter speed possible, block as much wind with your body as possible and if you are comfortable doing so: attach the camera to the tripod and not the collar on the 70-210 -- this stabilized the sensor so it was not hanging in the wind where vibrations in the camera body transferred to the sensor. I know this increases the stress on the body but I found it helped a lot.
I think as long as reasonable care is taken, the 70-210/4 isn't too heavy for the K1 body to support.
07-08-2020, 07:49 AM   #15
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sorry -- should have been more clear -- I was using the 2.8 version which I was worried might stress the mount. I agree the f4 version shouldnt be a problem.

Last edited by travelswsage; 07-08-2020 at 07:51 AM. Reason: added sentence
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