KP and DA300 x1.4

ncallender · 04-17-2021, 07:24 AM

Hi all, I have been doing more BIF lately and have experimented with my 300mm with and without TC. It seems like AF and sharpness take a hit with the DA1.4 tc. More than I would have thought. Have others noticed this or is it just bad technique on my part? It also seems that with the tc the camera front focused more. I guess I could adjust the af fine tube settings with the combo, but does the camera track the lens with tc as a separate lens?

Unregistered User 8 · 04-17-2021, 07:39 AM

Using the rear converter makes the combo a different lens to your camera, so af fine tuning will probably need doing.

**othar** · 04-17-2021, 08:10 AM

Try focusing manually with LV (magnified) and take a picture.
If you get sharper images than with AF you'll have to adjust focus (I don't know whether the camera recognizes this combination separately or not though)
If you don't get sharp images with that combination try the tc with another lens to determine if there is a problem with the tc.

**Lowell Goudge** · 04-17-2021, 08:18 AM - **2 Likes**

You need to remember that with the TC you need to shoot higher shutter speed to reduce camera shake, and stabilization is not as effective for BiF because the camera is always moving, in addition, you need to boost iso due to the additions 1 stop the TC costs. Combining the additional stop for reduced light, and the additional stop for focal length when hand held and shake elimination you have lost 2 stops of light, this pushes the iso, which adds grain.

TCs have their use but nothing is free

**jatrax** · 04-17-2021, 09:28 AM

- the combo of lens and TC will register as a separate lens so you can do AF fine tune with the combo

- 300mm is tough to work with, especially with BIF but 420mm is another whole order of magnitude of difficulty. Using 400 plus takes lots of practice and don't assume that because you are good at 300mm that the same skill level will work the same at 400mm.

- the Pentax 1.4x TC is excellent, clearly the best I ever tried, but it's not perfect. Adding more glass in front of the lens reduces light and reduces (to some degree) how "sharp" the image will be. The question is whether an image using the TC is better than an image without that has been cropped to the same size

**caliscouser** · 04-17-2021, 12:14 PM

No complaints around sharpness with my DA*300 + HD DA1.4, it's sharp with and without the converter, that's for still subjects though and with calibration.

BIF, yes that's a different challenge and that's probably where you are seeing the drop-off due to AF, aperture, shutter speed, technique, etc

**DWS1** · 04-17-2021, 06:12 PM

I don't know what settings you are using, but I've had good results with that combo for BIF using it with a K70 in Tav mode, setting shutter speed to 1/2000 or higher and aperture to f8-f11.

**ramseybuckeye** · 04-17-2021, 07:26 PM - **5 Likes**

Originally posted by ncallender

Hi all, I have been doing more BIF lately and have experimented with my 300mm with and without TC. It seems like AF and sharpness take a hit with the DA1.4 tc. More than I would have thought. Have others noticed this or is it just bad technique on my part? It also seems that with the tc the camera front focused more. I guess I could adjust the af fine tube settings with the combo, but does the camera track the lens with tc as a separate lens?

I use this combination quite a bit and don't feel like I lose much at all with the TC. I really think that technique may be the most important part, I feel that I have better results of BIF with the TC than I had before. But I believe that is because I have been able to do more of it. Below is probably one of my best BIF, and one from yesterday, what you don't see from yesterday was attempts at barn swallows. They are very fast and unpredictable, my technique is not that good, but I'm trying to get there. So, I think technique is key, and it does take more "practice" (not sure if that is the right word, maybe it is skill or finesse) with a longer lens since movement is magnified, and obviously some knowledge of the bird and some luck. But it also would not hurt to test your focus if you think it could be off.

Unregistered User 8 · 04-17-2021, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by ramseybuckeye

I use this combination quite a bit and don't feel like I lose much at all with the TC. I really think that technique may be the most important part, I feel that I have better results of BIF with the TC than I had before. But I believe that is because I have been able to do more of it. Below is probably one of my best BIF, and one from yesterday, what you don't see from yesterday was attempts at barn swallows. They are very fast and unpredictable, my technique is not that good, but I'm trying to get there. So, I think technique is key, and it does take more "practice" (not sure if that is the right word, maybe it is skill or finesse) with a longer lens since movement is magnified, and obviously some knowledge of the bird and some luck. But it also would not hurt to test your focus if you think it could be off.

Nothing beats real world, hands on experience, Tom. Thanks.

ncallender · 04-17-2021, 08:05 PM

Thanks folks. I think I've got a couple of issues. I think some calibration is in order seeing what others are doing with this combo. I also probably need to bump up shutter speed a little. I was at 1/800 and f6.3. but after a lot of editing I think the biggest issue was camera shake. Can someone point me to a technique for success with handholding this focal length or am I looking at a monopod or tripod with this setup to reliably get there. I would say I am still getting keepers, just the rate has plummeted.

---------- Post added 04-17-2021 at 09:14 PM ----------

Oh and SR off.

bertwert · 04-17-2021, 08:18 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by ncallender

Thanks folks. I think I've got a couple of issues. I think some calibration is in order seeing what others are doing with this combo. I also probably need to bump up shutter speed a little. I was at 1/800 and f6.3. but after a lot of editing I think the biggest issue was camera shake. Can someone point me to a technique for success with handholding this focal length or am I looking at a monopod or tripod with this setup to reliably get there. I would say I am still getting keepers, just the rate has plummeted.

Not the same lens here at all, but I'm quite confident hand holding at relatively low shutter speeds with a 400mm lens, such as this shot at 1/125s without any motion blur (of course, there is much less chance of failure having a faster shutter speed, but light does not always allow...):

I'm sure you know what I'm about to say, but the key here is practice, practice, practice. I feel like this guide is an excellent resource and always refer to it when people have questions about hand held shooting techniques, well worth the read:
Making the Most of Long Exposure Handhelds - Introduction - In-Depth Articles

EDIT: rereading up the thread, I see you're specifically asking about BIF, where you can't brace as effectively to shoot at slower shutter speeds. Even still, the guide linked above is a good read with some basic concepts that apply with more fast paced shooting. As far as shutter speed, you probably want to hit up at least 1/1000s to completely freeze the motion anyways, so camera blur is less of an issue. Once you're dropping to 1/500s and such, a lot of shots will start being blurred by the motion of the bird itself, even if you're hand holding the camera completely steady. Sometimes that may be desired, others less so. Again, different lens, but to demonstrate hand held birds in flight with 400mm, you can see what I'm mentioning about bird blur at 1/500s:

I also see your point about SR off, both these above shots have it on, and I have it on all the time as I find I rarely have enough light to shoot with a high enough shutter speed where it wouldn't be beneficial...

**ramseybuckeye** · 04-18-2021, 06:46 AM

Originally posted by ncallender

Thanks folks. I think I've got a couple of issues. I think some calibration is in order seeing what others are doing with this combo. I also probably need to bump up shutter speed a little. I was at 1/800 and f6.3. but after a lot of editing I think the biggest issue was camera shake. Can someone point me to a technique for success with handholding this focal length or am I looking at a monopod or tripod with this setup to reliably get there. I would say I am still getting keepers, just the rate has plummeted.

---------- Post added 04-17-2021 at 09:14 PM ----------

Oh and SR off.

The biggest thing I see with some people is that they don’t support the lens and have two hands on the camera. I have my left hand under the lens at the tripod mount, or farther out, while having your arms as close to your body as you can. I feel the combination is superbly balanced for handholding. Myself I could never use a monopod or use a tripod to shoot birds, but again, that is technique that I have not taken the time to learn because the few first attempts were so bad. I do not turn off SR, because I don’t go out looking to shoot BIF exclusively, I’m out for wildlife whatever it may be, and if I would turn it off I may forget to turn it back on. I’m also using center spot focusing with back button focus, and S not C autofocus, I just keep refocusing. Everybody is different, but the main thing is to support the lens.

gatorguy · 04-18-2021, 07:01 AM

Originally posted by ramseybuckeye

The biggest thing I see with some people is that they don’t support the lens and have two hands on the camera. I have my left hand under the lens at the tripod mount, or farther out, while having your arms as close to your body as you can. I feel the combination is superbly balanced for handholding. Myself I could never use a monopod or use a tripod to shoot birds, but again, that is technique that I have not taken the time to learn because the few first attempts were so bad. I do not turn off SR, because I don’t go out looking to shoot BIF exclusively, I’m out for wildlife whatever it may be, and if I would turn it off I may forget to turn it back on. I’m also using center spot focusing with back button focus, and S not C autofocus, I just keep refocusing. Everybody is different, but the main thing is to support the lens.

I shoot the same way, BBF over and over until I capture (or don't) the shot I want. Center spot and hand-held.

**pentaxus** · 04-18-2021, 09:22 PM

I find I don't lose much with my 1.4x but some lenses don't like any teleconverter so testing is a good idea.

gatorguy · 04-19-2021, 05:37 AM

Originally posted by ramseybuckeye

I use this combination quite a bit and don't feel like I lose much at all with the TC. I really think that technique may be the most important part, I feel that I have better results of BIF with the TC than I had before.

I have the Sigma 1.4 and 2x TC for my Sigma 70-200 and in general they're OK. Light can be problematic but otherwise I'm glad I have them. I've never owned or used the Pentax 1.4 but have seen such glowing reports about it, including yours, I bought one arriving today. Just in time for a K3 III and *300 trial.

04-17-2021, 07:24 AM	#1
ncallender Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 128	KP and DA300 x1.4 Hi all, I have been doing more BIF lately and have experimented with my 300mm with and without TC. It seems like AF and sharpness take a hit with the DA1.4 tc. More than I would have thought. Have others noticed this or is it just bad technique on my part? It also seems that with the tc the camera front focused more. I guess I could adjust the af fine tube settings with the combo, but does the camera track the lens with tc as a separate lens?

04-17-2021, 08:18 PM - 2 Likes	#11
bertwert Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Golden, BC Posts: 15,173	Originally posted by ncallender Thanks folks. I think I've got a couple of issues. I think some calibration is in order seeing what others are doing with this combo. I also probably need to bump up shutter speed a little. I was at 1/800 and f6.3. but after a lot of editing I think the biggest issue was camera shake. Can someone point me to a technique for success with handholding this focal length or am I looking at a monopod or tripod with this setup to reliably get there. I would say I am still getting keepers, just the rate has plummeted. Not the same lens here at all, but I'm quite confident hand holding at relatively low shutter speeds with a 400mm lens, such as this shot at 1/125s without any motion blur (of course, there is much less chance of failure having a faster shutter speed, but light does not always allow...): I'm sure you know what I'm about to say, but the key here is practice, practice, practice. I feel like this guide is an excellent resource and always refer to it when people have questions about hand held shooting techniques, well worth the read: Making the Most of Long Exposure Handhelds - Introduction - In-Depth Articles EDIT: rereading up the thread, I see you're specifically asking about BIF, where you can't brace as effectively to shoot at slower shutter speeds. Even still, the guide linked above is a good read with some basic concepts that apply with more fast paced shooting. As far as shutter speed, you probably want to hit up at least 1/1000s to completely freeze the motion anyways, so camera blur is less of an issue. Once you're dropping to 1/500s and such, a lot of shots will start being blurred by the motion of the bird itself, even if you're hand holding the camera completely steady. Sometimes that may be desired, others less so. Again, different lens, but to demonstrate hand held birds in flight with 400mm, you can see what I'm mentioning about bird blur at 1/500s: I also see your point about SR off, both these above shots have it on, and I have it on all the time as I find I rarely have enough light to shoot with a high enough shutter speed where it wouldn't be beneficial... Last edited by bertwert; 04-17-2021 at 08:28 PM.

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04-17-2021, 07:39 AM	#2
Unregistered User 8 Closed Account Join Date: Mar 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,694	Using the rear converter makes the combo a different lens to your camera, so af fine tuning will probably need doing.

04-17-2021, 08:10 AM	#3
othar Site Supporter Join Date: May 2014 Location: Linz Photos: Albums Posts: 3,098	Try focusing manually with LV (magnified) and take a picture. If you get sharper images than with AF you'll have to adjust focus (I don't know whether the camera recognizes this combination separately or not though) If you don't get sharp images with that combination try the tc with another lens to determine if there is a problem with the tc.

04-17-2021, 08:18 AM - 2 Likes	#4
Lowell Goudge Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,886	You need to remember that with the TC you need to shoot higher shutter speed to reduce camera shake, and stabilization is not as effective for BiF because the camera is always moving, in addition, you need to boost iso due to the additions 1 stop the TC costs. Combining the additional stop for reduced light, and the additional stop for focal length when hand held and shake elimination you have lost 2 stops of light, this pushes the iso, which adds grain. TCs have their use but nothing is free

04-17-2021, 09:28 AM	#5
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	- the combo of lens and TC will register as a separate lens so you can do AF fine tune with the combo - 300mm is tough to work with, especially with BIF but 420mm is another whole order of magnitude of difficulty. Using 400 plus takes lots of practice and don't assume that because you are good at 300mm that the same skill level will work the same at 400mm. - the Pentax 1.4x TC is excellent, clearly the best I ever tried, but it's not perfect. Adding more glass in front of the lens reduces light and reduces (to some degree) how "sharp" the image will be. The question is whether an image using the TC is better than an image without that has been cropped to the same size

04-17-2021, 12:14 PM	#6
caliscouser Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: SF Bay Area, CA Photos: Albums Posts: 1,037	No complaints around sharpness with my DA*300 + HD DA1.4, it's sharp with and without the converter, that's for still subjects though and with calibration. BIF, yes that's a different challenge and that's probably where you are seeing the drop-off due to AF, aperture, shutter speed, technique, etc

04-17-2021, 06:12 PM	#7
DWS1 Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Arkansas, USA Posts: 1,169	I don't know what settings you are using, but I've had good results with that combo for BIF using it with a K70 in Tav mode, setting shutter speed to 1/2000 or higher and aperture to f8-f11.

04-17-2021, 07:26 PM - 5 Likes	#8
ramseybuckeye Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Hampstead, NC Photos: Gallery Posts: 17,291	Originally posted by ncallender Hi all, I have been doing more BIF lately and have experimented with my 300mm with and without TC. It seems like AF and sharpness take a hit with the DA1.4 tc. More than I would have thought. Have others noticed this or is it just bad technique on my part? It also seems that with the tc the camera front focused more. I guess I could adjust the af fine tube settings with the combo, but does the camera track the lens with tc as a separate lens? I use this combination quite a bit and don't feel like I lose much at all with the TC. I really think that technique may be the most important part, I feel that I have better results of BIF with the TC than I had before. But I believe that is because I have been able to do more of it. Below is probably one of my best BIF, and one from yesterday, what you don't see from yesterday was attempts at barn swallows. They are very fast and unpredictable, my technique is not that good, but I'm trying to get there. So, I think technique is key, and it does take more "practice" (not sure if that is the right word, maybe it is skill or finesse) with a longer lens since movement is magnified, and obviously some knowledge of the bird and some luck. But it also would not hurt to test your focus if you think it could be off.

04-17-2021, 07:58 PM	#9
Unregistered User 8 Closed Account Join Date: Mar 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,694	Originally posted by ramseybuckeye I use this combination quite a bit and don't feel like I lose much at all with the TC. I really think that technique may be the most important part, I feel that I have better results of BIF with the TC than I had before. But I believe that is because I have been able to do more of it. Below is probably one of my best BIF, and one from yesterday, what you don't see from yesterday was attempts at barn swallows. They are very fast and unpredictable, my technique is not that good, but I'm trying to get there. So, I think technique is key, and it does take more "practice" (not sure if that is the right word, maybe it is skill or finesse) with a longer lens since movement is magnified, and obviously some knowledge of the bird and some luck. But it also would not hurt to test your focus if you think it could be off. Nothing beats real world, hands on experience, Tom. Thanks.

04-17-2021, 08:05 PM	#10
ncallender Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 128 Original Poster	Thanks folks. I think I've got a couple of issues. I think some calibration is in order seeing what others are doing with this combo. I also probably need to bump up shutter speed a little. I was at 1/800 and f6.3. but after a lot of editing I think the biggest issue was camera shake. Can someone point me to a technique for success with handholding this focal length or am I looking at a monopod or tripod with this setup to reliably get there. I would say I am still getting keepers, just the rate has plummeted. ---------- Post added 04-17-2021 at 09:14 PM ---------- Oh and SR off.

04-18-2021, 06:46 AM	#12
ramseybuckeye Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Hampstead, NC Photos: Gallery Posts: 17,291	Originally posted by ncallender Thanks folks. I think I've got a couple of issues. I think some calibration is in order seeing what others are doing with this combo. I also probably need to bump up shutter speed a little. I was at 1/800 and f6.3. but after a lot of editing I think the biggest issue was camera shake. Can someone point me to a technique for success with handholding this focal length or am I looking at a monopod or tripod with this setup to reliably get there. I would say I am still getting keepers, just the rate has plummeted. ---------- Post added 04-17-2021 at 09:14 PM ---------- Oh and SR off. The biggest thing I see with some people is that they don’t support the lens and have two hands on the camera. I have my left hand under the lens at the tripod mount, or farther out, while having your arms as close to your body as you can. I feel the combination is superbly balanced for handholding. Myself I could never use a monopod or use a tripod to shoot birds, but again, that is technique that I have not taken the time to learn because the few first attempts were so bad. I do not turn off SR, because I don’t go out looking to shoot BIF exclusively, I’m out for wildlife whatever it may be, and if I would turn it off I may forget to turn it back on. I’m also using center spot focusing with back button focus, and S not C autofocus, I just keep refocusing. Everybody is different, but the main thing is to support the lens.

04-18-2021, 07:01 AM	#13
gatorguy Moderator Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Central Florida Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,092	Originally posted by ramseybuckeye The biggest thing I see with some people is that they don’t support the lens and have two hands on the camera. I have my left hand under the lens at the tripod mount, or farther out, while having your arms as close to your body as you can. I feel the combination is superbly balanced for handholding. Myself I could never use a monopod or use a tripod to shoot birds, but again, that is technique that I have not taken the time to learn because the few first attempts were so bad. I do not turn off SR, because I don’t go out looking to shoot BIF exclusively, I’m out for wildlife whatever it may be, and if I would turn it off I may forget to turn it back on. I’m also using center spot focusing with back button focus, and S not C autofocus, I just keep refocusing. Everybody is different, but the main thing is to support the lens. I shoot the same way, BBF over and over until I capture (or don't) the shot I want. Center spot and hand-held.

04-18-2021, 09:22 PM	#14
pentaxus Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Central Coast, CA Posts: 1,313	I find I don't lose much with my 1.4x but some lenses don't like any teleconverter so testing is a good idea.

04-19-2021, 05:37 AM	#15
gatorguy Moderator Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Central Florida Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,092	Originally posted by ramseybuckeye I use this combination quite a bit and don't feel like I lose much at all with the TC. I really think that technique may be the most important part, I feel that I have better results of BIF with the TC than I had before. I have the Sigma 1.4 and 2x TC for my Sigma 70-200 and in general they're OK. Light can be problematic but otherwise I'm glad I have them. I've never owned or used the Pentax 1.4 but have seen such glowing reports about it, including yours, I bought one arriving today. Just in time for a K3 III and *300 trial.