non * or ltd primes - design

house · 05-08-2021, 03:49 AM

I just realised that all recent Pentax primes are star or ltd and that we don't know what a standard lineup Pentax prime would look like. Very strange situation. The plastic fantastics are explicitly super cheap and actually old by now so there's a whole segment missing

I really like the k and m design language with the rubber like grippy surface. The * primes and all zoom lenses use an updated version of this material/look as does the revamped fisheye and hdfa 35. I think aesthetically the M and 645 texture with larger scale texture looks a lot nicer than the tiny dapples of say a recent kit lens but its still similar.

I realised that I would probably love a moderately performing, quality plastic, prime series with long (as lens size permits) knobbly focus grip. A bit like recent cheaper zooms but simpler and smaller.

Anyone else who would love a series with this type of design.

**ramseybuckeye** · 05-08-2021, 04:52 AM - **1 Like**

Pentax is not really going in the direction of cheap primes these days, the recent new lenses have been mostly the other direction. When they are putting out maybe a couple lenses a year it may not be likely to change. But as we have seen some of the updating of older lenses has happened. But for lenses that have been out of production for years it's not that easy to add autofocus, electronic aperture, weather resistance, and to produce the glass again. And if you don’t have these things why you you buy it over an old lens? Maybe you will see a cheap 28 some day, but not before a limited or star version comes out. And back when they produced all of those primes, producing decent zooms was very difficult, most were crap. Today they can produce excellent zooms and I’m guessing they may be the top sellers in the non limited or star categories, in fact the 55-300PLM may be the best selling Pentax lens.
If we do see any new “cheap” primes it will come as a surprise I think, non roadmapped.

shyrsio · 05-08-2021, 04:52 AM

That's right, the last real primes were the FA's. Technically there was the D FA 50/2.8 and the D FA 100/2.8 but they are macros so...

Sidney Porter · 05-08-2021, 05:08 AM

I realize a lot of lenses are older design but from an optic stand point they work. I could see updated coating. The other 2 points that could be upgraded is weather sealing and replacing the screw drive. But weather sealing and replacing a screw drive seems like a complete engineering which would probably eliminate these changes at the budget end and it would be a target at the * or limited

house · 05-08-2021, 05:15 AM

But wouldn't it be great if they tried to achieve a sort of K 135 lens but in quality plastic. In my dreams they of course keep the diameter down. .. but even a fatter prime would be OK. Simple design minimum fuss just a long focus grip.

A bit like these but simpler, just a tube.

**Cerebum** · 05-08-2021, 05:42 AM

It would be nice to see a 24mm an 85mm and a 135mm in the plastic fantastic range. You can get the HD FA 35mm f2 & 50mm f1.7 so those three would be nice affordable primes. The HD FA lenses come in at £400+, I suppose you could either target these new primes in that bracket or the £200+ plastic fantastic area. I can't see it happening, but it would be nice

vijaykishan · 05-08-2021, 05:50 AM

Originally posted by shyrsio

That's right, the last real primes were the FA's. Technically there was the D FA 50/2.8 and the D FA 100/2.8 but they are macros so...

Agree, and fantastically performing lens at that ! The smc 50mm Macro competes with my ZK CZ Makro Planar for camera time, it is that good. The CZ 100mm F2 is considered one of the highest resolving lens ever manufactured for the visible light range.

AfterPentax Mark II · 05-08-2021, 06:14 AM

In one of the early video's of the K-3 III, I thought the one with the announcement of the new 21mm Ltd they said something about lenses and one remark was that Ricoh would also manufacture in the near future some more affordable lenses along with the Ltd and * lenses. That said, Ricoh manufactures great zoom lenses in the regular lens series, as well as one Ltd and of course in the * series. Nowadays most people will go for the easy to handle zooms, because they are so very convenient. If you look at the K-3 Mark III flyer there is a map with all the lenses for APS-C. Amongst these there are the two plastic fantastic's. The old 18-55 and 50-200 are also still there. I guess the latter two will not match the quality of the K-3 Mark III. But the 55-300 PLM will certainly do so and in comparison it is a cheap lens. I think that modern Ricoh/Pentax zoom lenses are of such high quality that it does not make sense to have a new line of primes. As people more and more demand silent focusing the primes also must have a DC motor to achieve that. It makes a prime a bit more expensive than a zoom. The primes will not meet the large sales of the zooms. I guess that is why the zooms are so affordable given the success of the 55-300 PLM. By the way, I often wondered if the two plastic fantastic lenses were made of leftover SMC lens materials. They are in comparison quite cheap and give excellent results, more particular the 35mm does so. They are primes like the old days, so without a dedicated hood and only screw drive AF.

house · 05-08-2021, 07:18 AM

Originally posted by AfterPentax Mark II

The primes will not meet the large sales of the zooms.

It would be interesting to see the a breakdown of Fuji sales. Prime vs zoom. As a disliker of zooms (not iq related) I imagine a world where everyone loves primes

The DFA28105 costs $496.95 and BH today. A 28mm or 105mm prime for $496.95 would be completely acceptable but performance expectations would be a bit higher. I don't think going down to plastic fantastic levels is a good idea butDFA28105 like quality would be great. It's just an odd situation where zooms can and are made at reasonable price points but primes are inflated.

I guess it's just about market segmentation. They expect to be able to squeeze prime shooters a bit more as they expect them to be more discerning and willing to pay. It's probably not related to design or manufacturing cost.

Just to say my initial thinking about design was about longing for a lens that has the form factor and handling as described above. It wasn't about the pricing. ltd's are nice but in my experience a bit fragile. A lens that can be handled more casually without being DFA* sized would be greatly appreciated by me. Simply the equivalent of the consumer zooms in prime format. I think they would be extremely rugged as many of the zooms seem good enough. The lack of moving parts would make the primes even tougher.

Sidney Porter · 05-08-2021, 07:25 AM

Originally posted by Cerebum

It would be nice to see a 24mm an 85mm and a 135mm in the plastic fantastic range. You can get the HD FA 35mm f2 & 50mm f1.7 so those three would be nice affordable primes. The HD FA lenses come in at £400+, I suppose you could either target these new primes in that bracket or the £200+ plastic fantastic area. I can't see it happening, but it would be nice

Yes I would like that. I must of misunderstood the OP when I read "The plastic fantastics are explicitly super cheap and actually old by now so there's a whole segment missing". I thought he was calling to replace the da 35mm 2.4, DA 50mm 1.8, fa 35 2.0 and FA 50 1.4. I focused too much on "super old". I don't see a need to replace these but I am all for adding to them. It is really bringing back so on the FA lenses there was a FA 135 2.8 there was also a fa 85 2.8 soft.

They did remake the fa 85 1.4 into the da* 85 1.4 but i don't know how similar that lenses are

house · 05-08-2021, 07:41 AM

I was trying to say that the plastic fantastics are to cheap and basic. I wish for a line of "normal" quality prime lenses with the build and design features described. I don't mind the mount being plastic or not but metal would be preferred. It's just that the plastic fantastics, particularly the 35 though excellent optically, is just very unlovingly put together. Certainly to emphasize the budget status.

stevebrot · 05-08-2021, 08:25 AM

Originally posted by house

Anyone else who would love a series with this type of design.

I am on record as thinking that a "less than */limited" line of FF primes is a good idea. Using the HD FA 35/2.0 as a template would be a good idea. Using the DA 35/2.4 or DA 50/1.8 would be a rather poor idea, IMHO.

Steve

(...actually likes the DA 50/1.8 because it is so very light, but is not a goto lens for much...too many fast 50s?...)

**Pål Jensen** · 05-08-2021, 08:45 AM

Originally posted by house

I was trying to say that the plastic fantastics are to cheap and basic. I wish for a line of "normal" quality prime lenses with the build and design features described. I don't mind the mount being plastic or not but metal would be preferred. It's just that the plastic fantastics, particularly the 35 though excellent optically, is just very unlovingly put together. Certainly to emphasize the budget status.

They won't sell sufficiently. Close to 99% of lens sales are zooms. Primes only makes sense when they can offer something zooms can't, like wide apertures, 1:1 macro or very compact like the Limiteds. The Limited treatment makes extra value as the lenses are sold in so small volumes that they will be relatively expensive anyway.....

house · 05-08-2021, 09:06 AM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

They won't sell. Close to 99% of lens sales are zooms. Primes only makes sense when they can offer something zooms can't, like wide apertures, 1:1 macro or very compact like the Limiteds. The Limited treatment makes extra value as the lenses are sold in so small volumes that they will be relatively expensive anyway.....

I'm afraid I have to ask for a source for that 99% number. During the heyday of cheap kit lens apsc bodies that's probably true but we're no longer in that phase since probably 10 years or so. Living in Stockholm I see more primes than zooms. Probably because there are a lot of Fujis but also Sonys have primes mounted. I've seen one Fuji zoom as far as I can remember. The exception is tourists that come with the boats, often elderly. At some birding spot the situation will be different of course...

The few Pentaxes I've seen around Sweden in the past 5 years or so has also had primes. DA ltd's or FA's . Of course photojournalists and event photographers will use primarily zooms but they are quite few.

Beyond this people won't buy things that don't exist or aren't marketed. Shops migh also suggest zooms but as photography with cameras are becoming more of an active choice I think primes will become more important.

AfterPentax Mark II · 05-08-2021, 09:45 AM

Originally posted by house

It would be interesting to see the a breakdown of Fuji sales. Prime vs zoom. As a disliker of zooms (not iq related) I imagine a world where everyone loves primes

The DFA28105 costs $496.95 and BH today. A 28mm or 105mm prime for $496.95 would be completely acceptable but performance expectations would be a bit higher. I don't think going down to plastic fantastic levels is a good idea butDFA28105 like quality would be great. It's just an odd situation where zooms can and are made at reasonable price points but primes are inflated.

I guess it's just about market segmentation. They expect to be able to squeeze prime shooters a bit more as they expect them to be more discerning and willing to pay. It's probably not related to design or manufacturing cost.

Just to say my initial thinking about design was about longing for a lens that has the form factor and handling as described above. It wasn't about the pricing. ltd's are nice but in my experience a bit fragile. A lens that can be handled more casually without being DFA* sized would be greatly appreciated by me. Simply the equivalent of the consumer zooms in prime format. I think they would be extremely rugged as many of the zooms seem good enough. The lack of moving parts would make the primes even tougher.

Thinking of the days that I bought my Super A and the prime A 50mm 1.4 I guess the reasonable price would be that of the HD DFA* 50mm F 1.4. And that includes squeezing that extra dollar out of the prime lovers. When I bought the A lens I payed a premium for the quality build of that lens and of course the electronics added to use the A mode. It was about 399 dollars then. Prices have gone up in those almost 40 years and compared to those times the price of the K-3 Mark III is reasonable as well. The mentioned 28-105 is in fact a cheap lens (the plastic fantastic's are super cheap). Compare it with the cheap 28-105 from 2001. Twenty years later the DFA 28-105 is more or less about the same price level. If you compare it to the A 35-105 from 1984 the price has gone down for the DFA 28-105 which is wider and perhaps more sophisticated?
"but as photography with cameras are becoming more of an active choice" On what do you base this? I think it is the opposite: more and more people use their smartphone to take a picture, why do you think that the camera industry is in such a trouble?

05-08-2021, 03:49 AM	#1
house Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 3,306	*non or ltd primes - design** I just realised that all recent Pentax primes are star or ltd and that we don't know what a standard lineup Pentax prime would look like. Very strange situation. The plastic fantastics are explicitly super cheap and actually old by now so there's a whole segment missing I really like the k and m design language with the rubber like grippy surface. The * primes and all zoom lenses use an updated version of this material/look as does the revamped fisheye and hdfa 35. I think aesthetically the M and 645 texture with larger scale texture looks a lot nicer than the tiny dapples of say a recent kit lens but its still similar. I realised that I would probably love a moderately performing, quality plastic, prime series with long (as lens size permits) knobbly focus grip. A bit like recent cheaper zooms but simpler and smaller. Anyone else who would love a series with this type of design.

05-08-2021, 07:18 AM	#9
house Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 3,306 Original Poster	Originally posted by AfterPentax Mark II The primes will not meet the large sales of the zooms. It would be interesting to see the a breakdown of Fuji sales. Prime vs zoom. As a disliker of zooms (not iq related) I imagine a world where everyone loves primes The DFA28105 costs $496.95 and BH today. A 28mm or 105mm prime for $496.95 would be completely acceptable but performance expectations would be a bit higher. I don't think going down to plastic fantastic levels is a good idea butDFA28105 like quality would be great. It's just an odd situation where zooms can and are made at reasonable price points but primes are inflated. I guess it's just about market segmentation. They expect to be able to squeeze prime shooters a bit more as they expect them to be more discerning and willing to pay. It's probably not related to design or manufacturing cost. Just to say my initial thinking about design was about longing for a lens that has the form factor and handling as described above. It wasn't about the pricing. ltd's are nice but in my experience a bit fragile. A lens that can be handled more casually without being DFA* sized would be greatly appreciated by me. Simply the equivalent of the consumer zooms in prime format. I think they would be extremely rugged as many of the zooms seem good enough. The lack of moving parts would make the primes even tougher. Last edited by house; 05-08-2021 at 07:23 AM.

05-08-2021, 08:45 AM	#13
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by house I was trying to say that the plastic fantastics are to cheap and basic. I wish for a line of "normal" quality prime lenses with the build and design features described. I don't mind the mount being plastic or not but metal would be preferred. It's just that the plastic fantastics, particularly the 35 though excellent optically, is just very unlovingly put together. Certainly to emphasize the budget status. They won't sell sufficiently. Close to 99% of lens sales are zooms. Primes only makes sense when they can offer something zooms can't, like wide apertures, 1:1 macro or very compact like the Limiteds. The Limited treatment makes extra value as the lenses are sold in so small volumes that they will be relatively expensive anyway..... Last edited by Pål Jensen; 05-08-2021 at 09:01 AM.

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05-08-2021, 04:52 AM - 1 Like	#2
ramseybuckeye Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Hampstead, NC Photos: Gallery Posts: 17,291	Pentax is not really going in the direction of cheap primes these days, the recent new lenses have been mostly the other direction. When they are putting out maybe a couple lenses a year it may not be likely to change. But as we have seen some of the updating of older lenses has happened. But for lenses that have been out of production for years it's not that easy to add autofocus, electronic aperture, weather resistance, and to produce the glass again. And if you don’t have these things why you you buy it over an old lens? Maybe you will see a cheap 28 some day, but not before a limited or star version comes out. And back when they produced all of those primes, producing decent zooms was very difficult, most were crap. Today they can produce excellent zooms and I’m guessing they may be the top sellers in the non limited or star categories, in fact the 55-300PLM may be the best selling Pentax lens. If we do see any new “cheap” primes it will come as a surprise I think, non roadmapped.

05-08-2021, 04:52 AM	#3
shyrsio Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Tirana Posts: 780	That's right, the last real primes were the FA's. Technically there was the D FA 50/2.8 and the D FA 100/2.8 but they are macros so...

05-08-2021, 05:08 AM	#4
Sidney Porter Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Columbus Ohio USA Posts: 353	I realize a lot of lenses are older design but from an optic stand point they work. I could see updated coating. The other 2 points that could be upgraded is weather sealing and replacing the screw drive. But weather sealing and replacing a screw drive seems like a complete engineering which would probably eliminate these changes at the budget end and it would be a target at the * or limited

05-08-2021, 05:15 AM	#5
house Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 3,306 Original Poster	But wouldn't it be great if they tried to achieve a sort of K 135 lens but in quality plastic. In my dreams they of course keep the diameter down. .. but even a fatter prime would be OK. Simple design minimum fuss just a long focus grip. A bit like these but simpler, just a tube.

05-08-2021, 05:42 AM	#6
Cerebum Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: Lancaster Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,828	It would be nice to see a 24mm an 85mm and a 135mm in the plastic fantastic range. You can get the HD FA 35mm f2 & 50mm f1.7 so those three would be nice affordable primes. The HD FA lenses come in at £400+, I suppose you could either target these new primes in that bracket or the £200+ plastic fantastic area. I can't see it happening, but it would be nice

05-08-2021, 05:50 AM	#7
vijaykishan Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2021 Photos: Gallery Posts: 999	Originally posted by shyrsio That's right, the last real primes were the FA's. Technically there was the D FA 50/2.8 and the D FA 100/2.8 but they are macros so... Agree, and fantastically performing lens at that ! The smc 50mm Macro competes with my ZK CZ Makro Planar for camera time, it is that good. The CZ 100mm F2 is considered one of the highest resolving lens ever manufactured for the visible light range.

05-08-2021, 06:14 AM	#8
AfterPentax Mark II Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2021 Posts: 1,462	In one of the early video's of the K-3 III, I thought the one with the announcement of the new 21mm Ltd they said something about lenses and one remark was that Ricoh would also manufacture in the near future some more affordable lenses along with the Ltd and * lenses. That said, Ricoh manufactures great zoom lenses in the regular lens series, as well as one Ltd and of course in the * series. Nowadays most people will go for the easy to handle zooms, because they are so very convenient. If you look at the K-3 Mark III flyer there is a map with all the lenses for APS-C. Amongst these there are the two plastic fantastic's. The old 18-55 and 50-200 are also still there. I guess the latter two will not match the quality of the K-3 Mark III. But the 55-300 PLM will certainly do so and in comparison it is a cheap lens. I think that modern Ricoh/Pentax zoom lenses are of such high quality that it does not make sense to have a new line of primes. As people more and more demand silent focusing the primes also must have a DC motor to achieve that. It makes a prime a bit more expensive than a zoom. The primes will not meet the large sales of the zooms. I guess that is why the zooms are so affordable given the success of the 55-300 PLM. By the way, I often wondered if the two plastic fantastic lenses were made of leftover SMC lens materials. They are in comparison quite cheap and give excellent results, more particular the 35mm does so. They are primes like the old days, so without a dedicated hood and only screw drive AF.

05-08-2021, 07:25 AM	#10
Sidney Porter Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Columbus Ohio USA Posts: 353	Originally posted by Cerebum It would be nice to see a 24mm an 85mm and a 135mm in the plastic fantastic range. You can get the HD FA 35mm f2 & 50mm f1.7 so those three would be nice affordable primes. The HD FA lenses come in at £400+, I suppose you could either target these new primes in that bracket or the £200+ plastic fantastic area. I can't see it happening, but it would be nice Yes I would like that. I must of misunderstood the OP when I read "The plastic fantastics are explicitly super cheap and actually old by now so there's a whole segment missing". I thought he was calling to replace the da 35mm 2.4, DA 50mm 1.8, fa 35 2.0 and FA 50 1.4. I focused too much on "super old". I don't see a need to replace these but I am all for adding to them. It is really bringing back so on the FA lenses there was a FA 135 2.8 there was also a fa 85 2.8 soft. They did remake the fa 85 1.4 into the da* 85 1.4 but i don't know how similar that lenses are

05-08-2021, 07:41 AM	#11
house Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 3,306 Original Poster	I was trying to say that the plastic fantastics are to cheap and basic. I wish for a line of "normal" quality prime lenses with the build and design features described. I don't mind the mount being plastic or not but metal would be preferred. It's just that the plastic fantastics, particularly the 35 though excellent optically, is just very unlovingly put together. Certainly to emphasize the budget status.

05-08-2021, 08:25 AM	#12
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by house Anyone else who would love a series with this type of design. I am on record as thinking that a "less than */limited" line of FF primes is a good idea. Using the HD FA 35/2.0 as a template would be a good idea. Using the DA 35/2.4 or DA 50/1.8 would be a rather poor idea, IMHO. Steve (...actually likes the DA 50/1.8 because it is so very light, but is not a goto lens for much...too many fast 50s?...)

05-08-2021, 09:06 AM	#14
house Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 3,306 Original Poster	Originally posted by Pål Jensen They won't sell. Close to 99% of lens sales are zooms. Primes only makes sense when they can offer something zooms can't, like wide apertures, 1:1 macro or very compact like the Limiteds. The Limited treatment makes extra value as the lenses are sold in so small volumes that they will be relatively expensive anyway..... I'm afraid I have to ask for a source for that 99% number. During the heyday of cheap kit lens apsc bodies that's probably true but we're no longer in that phase since probably 10 years or so. Living in Stockholm I see more primes than zooms. Probably because there are a lot of Fujis but also Sonys have primes mounted. I've seen one Fuji zoom as far as I can remember. The exception is tourists that come with the boats, often elderly. At some birding spot the situation will be different of course... The few Pentaxes I've seen around Sweden in the past 5 years or so has also had primes. DA ltd's or FA's . Of course photojournalists and event photographers will use primarily zooms but they are quite few. Beyond this people won't buy things that don't exist or aren't marketed. Shops migh also suggest zooms but as photography with cameras are becoming more of an active choice I think primes will become more important.

05-08-2021, 09:45 AM	#15
AfterPentax Mark II Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2021 Posts: 1,462	Originally posted by house It would be interesting to see the a breakdown of Fuji sales. Prime vs zoom. As a disliker of zooms (not iq related) I imagine a world where everyone loves primes The DFA28105 costs $496.95 and BH today. A 28mm or 105mm prime for $496.95 would be completely acceptable but performance expectations would be a bit higher. I don't think going down to plastic fantastic levels is a good idea butDFA28105 like quality would be great. It's just an odd situation where zooms can and are made at reasonable price points but primes are inflated. I guess it's just about market segmentation. They expect to be able to squeeze prime shooters a bit more as they expect them to be more discerning and willing to pay. It's probably not related to design or manufacturing cost. Just to say my initial thinking about design was about longing for a lens that has the form factor and handling as described above. It wasn't about the pricing. ltd's are nice but in my experience a bit fragile. A lens that can be handled more casually without being DFA* sized would be greatly appreciated by me. Simply the equivalent of the consumer zooms in prime format. I think they would be extremely rugged as many of the zooms seem good enough. The lack of moving parts would make the primes even tougher. Thinking of the days that I bought my Super A and the prime A 50mm 1.4 I guess the reasonable price would be that of the HD DFA* 50mm F 1.4. And that includes squeezing that extra dollar out of the prime lovers. When I bought the A lens I payed a premium for the quality build of that lens and of course the electronics added to use the A mode. It was about 399 dollars then. Prices have gone up in those almost 40 years and compared to those times the price of the K-3 Mark III is reasonable as well. The mentioned 28-105 is in fact a cheap lens (the plastic fantastic's are super cheap). Compare it with the cheap 28-105 from 2001. Twenty years later the DFA 28-105 is more or less about the same price level. If you compare it to the A 35-105 from 1984 the price has gone down for the DFA 28-105 which is wider and perhaps more sophisticated? "but as photography with cameras are becoming more of an active choice" On what do you base this? I think it is the opposite: more and more people use their smartphone to take a picture, why do you think that the camera industry is in such a trouble?