Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
11-27-2008, 02:39 PM   #16
Veteran Member
lbam's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Toronto
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 443
[QUOTE The salesman at Henry's is just that: a salesman. What makes him more money, sending your camera out for service, or having you buy a new one? I work in the retail camera business, and I hate people like that. They give us all a bad name. Camera service does not cost as much as a new DSLR, the same way a new engine doesn't cost the same amount of money as a new car, but try and win an argument against a salesperson who thinks otherwise. I sell people photo equipment, but I also sell them what keeps their camera gear in order: accessories and service.

Sorry to go on a tirade, but I can't stand that "throw it away" mentality.[/QUOTE]

No Tirade, noble words (about waste), good to hear your in the zone perspective.

11-27-2008, 02:44 PM   #17
Veteran Member
lbam's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Toronto
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 443
QuoteOriginally posted by farfisa Quote
The Panasonic G1 has a 2x crop factor, though. so a 14-35 would be like a 28-70 on film or on APS-C that'd be like a ... 19-46?... I think I broke my head.

But I agree, I think the mirror's going to go away on some cameras, but a lot of people will be wanting traditional viewfinders (G1 has an electronic).

Hell, lbam, you use a split focusing screen in 2008--couldn't do that without a mirror!

or could you
What I think might happen, and what I'd like to happen at not necessarily the same thing...

I love my split screen, despite it front focusing slightly! lol
I am assuming electronic screens like sensors will get better than now, I've never looked through a G1, and probably would always rather see the real light, rather than a simulation...
11-27-2008, 05:43 PM   #18
Senior Member
jslifoaw's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Toronto/Victoria
Posts: 262
You might want to get FA lenses also becausse you can use them on your K2 and MX, and adapt them to other brands in a worst-case scenario. I personally prefer FA lenses too, and the only reason I buy DAs is because my widest FA lens is 24mm.
11-28-2008, 01:43 AM   #19
Veteran Member
Jimfear's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 576
QuoteOriginally posted by Sean Nelson Quote
Available in K mount? Perhaps. But "the Norm"? Unlikely.

APS-C will always be cheaper, and as the old 80/20 rule goes, for most of the people it will be good enough. APS-C is now the new "norm", just as 35mm wrested the tile of "norm" from medium format during the 60's and 70's.
I think this is spot on. I have a feeling APS-C will be the standard for consumer cameras (i.e. most cameras) in a couple of years, and then the pro and enthusiast/semipro cameras will be available in both APS-C and fullframe depending on what you want from it. As is happening with canikon at the moment, seeing more lower spec fullframes (D700, 5D, 5DII) with high spec both APS-C and fullframes at the top of the line.

//jim, still waiting for that D700 in K-mount

11-28-2008, 10:06 AM   #20
Veteran Member
Sean Nelson's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Vancouver BC Canada
Posts: 353
QuoteOriginally posted by Jimfear Quote
I have a feeling APS-C will be the standard for consumer cameras (i.e. most cameras) in a couple of years, and then the pro and enthusiast/semipro cameras will be available in both APS-C and fullframe depending on what you want from it.
Actually, I think the small-sensor compact cameras are here to stay too. They're cheaper to manufacture with their tiny lenses and plenty good enough for most point-and-shooters. To extend the analogy, I think the following evolutions have taken place:

"Instamatic" (126 /110 film) --> small-sensor compact cameras (casual shooters)

35mm --> APS-C-sized sensors (photo hobbyists)

Medium-format (120 roll film) --> full-frame and larger sensors (serious hobbyists/pros)
11-28-2008, 12:09 PM   #21
Pentaxian
Marc Sabatella's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Denver, CO
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 10,686
QuoteOriginally posted by 8540tomg Quote
No I'm not concerned that I will be forced to buy a full frame but rather that I will want one. My K10D is a fine camera but it is more a computer than a camera. As a computer I expect it will have a far shorter effective life span than my K2 or MX film cameras. Such is the nature of consumer electronics.
Oh, of course - I didn't say I wouldn't expect you to want to repalce your camera. But what makes you think that replacing it with the latest & greatest APS-C camera wouldn't be an option? As I said, just because Pentax *might* someday introduce an FF camera doesn't mean they'd stop making APS-C cameras. So really, what would entice you to switch to FF?

If it's because you *prefer* larger cameras, or the promise of less noise, or you really wish your telephoto lenses had less "reach", or that you would have to spend more money and have bigger lenses to gt the same telephoto "reach", or really want all your current focal lengths to suddenly start giving you different fields of view, because you really miss wide angles, or want just that little bit extra DOF control, then by all means, you should start planning for that now. But as you might be able to from the slant I'm putting on this, I really question that. Nothing you've said thus far indicates there is anything about FF that *should* make you want to switch. So why worry about it?

QuoteQuote:
I suspect full frame sensors will be the norm then and I'm certain to want one.
There is no way APS-C won't continue to be widely available for a very long time.

QuoteQuote:
Will Hoya continue to support the APS-C product line?
They would be complete idiots not to.
11-28-2008, 01:30 PM   #22
Senior Member
Photomaximum's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 108
I have used quite a few digital bodies with different crop sensors. I think these have included 1.3x, 1.4x, 1.6x etc.

After having used film cameras for years it always seemed disconcerting when the trusted lens you reach for seemed "different" somehow. Sure, it was a cheap and lighter way of getting a longer telephoto but the wide angles were always a pain. Even using the portrait 85mm seemed "wrong" on a crop body. I sometimes resorted to renting the Canon 1DS body for specific assignments.

Everything changed with the Canon 5D body. It did not have all of the professional bells and whistles but what a camera! The large files, large screen, great IQ and full frame capture for the price made it an irresistible choice. Canon sold tons of them. It became the club to bash Nikon with: "When will Nikon come out with a FF camera?" Once Nikon came out with their own FF camera they enticed quite a few Canon shooters with these cameras and new lenses. Many, many Canon and Nikon crop body owners have upgraded to the FF system(s) or dream of doing so.

I sold all of my crop bodies and the 5D is my weapon of choice now.

Look at the huge buzz the New 5d MK II is getting. People just can't wait to get their hands on one. It is probably the most anticipated Canon camera ever.

Most professionals and serious shooters want a FF camera. For some its the extra IQ, the focal length familiarity of their lenses, the fact that they have film lenses, bragging rights, or a combination of all of these factors.

I have skimmed through a lot of posts on this board about the Pentax FF issue. Many shooters are happy with APS cameras, many really want a FF camera option and then there are many that are just curious. But its still the elephant in the room. My hunch is that a good portion of those who think the APS system is good enough have never tried working with FF cameras or the files they produce.

Over the decades people have regarded Pentax as a company that swings into irrelevancy every decade or so. Its always "going out of business" in some eyes. But Pentax has always marched to its own tune somehow: developing some great products, producing great lenses, offering some professional systems (like medium format), etc, etc. But Pentax has always been inconsistent with its marketing strategy and product range, especially for the serious or pro shooter. Take a look at the Pentax LX system for example. This system was Pentax's real big push into the professional/serious shooter market. The LX was a stunning system with tons of options and a full line of great "A" series glass. It was expensive to produce and a real worthy challenger to the Canon F1 and the Nikon F3, but Pentax never really pushed the camera or marketed it well. Tons of shooters had no idea that Pentax had such a camera or an extensive line of lenses. When I first showed up court-side at the US Open (tennis) in New York with the "A"*400/2.8 all the media shooters were amazed that Pentax made such a lens.

These days there are serious gaps in the Pentax line. There are no FF cameras and the longer telephoto choices are no way near as complete as the "A" series offerings of 20 years ago.

If Pentax came out with a serious FF camera I think a lot of people would jump at it. But then there is the issue of what lenses would be available for such a camera? Most of the newer Pentax lenses are APS only. Could Pentax afford to produce a new FF camera AND a fresh line of FF lenses? A lot of comments say "no." The flip side is that without a FF system and new lenses a lot of people regard Pentax as a low tier company. Part of Canon and Nikon's success with amateurs was they created a buzz with the high end professional stuff: even though most amateurs would never buy the top of the line camera or a 300/2.8 lens they liked the image/fantasy of "someday" adding one of these goodies to their own kit. Pentax does not have this arrow in their marketing quiver. For Pentax its sort of a "chicken or the egg" syndrome.

In the future camera imaging chips will get cheaper/better and I think more FF bodies will be offered. A lot of amateurs think getting a FF camera as the "next step" upwards in their photography. Wether this is technically accurate or just marketing it is a big deal. Especially for a camera company that does not have one...

Last edited by Photomaximum; 11-28-2008 at 01:38 PM.
11-28-2008, 03:05 PM   #23
Veteran Member
AndrewG NY's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Chappaqua, NY
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 679
QuoteOriginally posted by lbam Quote
Olympus certainly have some very nice lenses for their 4 thirds system now ED 14-35mm 1:2.0 SWD for example (if you can afford it!!)
Oly has a nice and capable system but that's a really frigging expensive 28-70 equiv.--I'm sure it's pretty nice but that f/2 is somewhat negated by the smaller sensor (less depth-of-field control, increased noise). It's roughly the equivalent of the DA* 16-50 f/2.8 of which you could buy nearly three for that price. Or you could buy DA* 16-50, a DA* 50-135, and still have enough left over for a AF-540FGZ and a couple of memory cards.

11-28-2008, 04:58 PM   #24
Veteran Member
Jimfear's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 576
QuoteOriginally posted by Sean Nelson Quote
Actually, I think the small-sensor compact cameras are here to stay too. They're cheaper to manufacture with their tiny lenses and plenty good enough for most point-and-shooters. To extend the analogy, I think the following evolutions have taken place:

"Instamatic" (126 /110 film) --> small-sensor compact cameras (casual shooters)

35mm --> APS-C-sized sensors (photo hobbyists)

Medium-format (120 roll film) --> full-frame and larger sensors (serious hobbyists/pros)
Oh yes I think there will always be an array of different compact camera sensors also. But here I was talking of SLRs as I know nothing about compact cameras.
11-29-2008, 06:14 AM   #25
Pentaxian
8540tomg's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Waterloo, Ontario
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 4,454
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Oh, of course - I didn't say I wouldn't expect you to want to repalce your camera. But what makes you think that replacing it with the latest & greatest APS-C camera wouldn't be an option? As I said, just because Pentax *might* someday introduce an FF camera doesn't mean they'd stop making APS-C cameras. So really, what would entice you to switch to FF?

If it's because you *prefer* larger cameras, or the promise of less noise, or you really wish your telephoto lenses had less "reach", or that you would have to spend more money and have bigger lenses to gt the same telephoto "reach", or really want all your current focal lengths to suddenly start giving you different fields of view, because you really miss wide angles, or want just that little bit extra DOF control, then by all means, you should start planning for that now. But as you might be able to from the slant I'm putting on this, I really question that. Nothing you've said thus far indicates there is anything about FF that *should* make you want to switch. So why worry about it?



There is no way APS-C won't continue to be widely available for a very long time.



They would be complete idiots not to.
Hey Marc,

I'm not really "worried" about it in any way. It just seems to me that if one purchases the FA limited lenses that you can have it both ways. They will work very well in both formats. The same can't be said of DA lenses in every instance. I haven't made a study of this but it is my understanding most if not all DA lenses will vignette in full frame. All things being equal it would seem prudent to go with the FA limited and keep all options open. Thoughts?

Tom G
11-29-2008, 07:29 AM   #26
Veteran Member




Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,915
FA Limiteds are the better choice if you want to be futureproof
and then for your wide coverage, pick up one of the many wide options available, DA15, DA16-45, DA*16-45, DA12-24, Tamron/Sigma UW Zooms, Tamron 17-50mm, etc
11-29-2008, 08:54 AM   #27
Pentaxian
Marc Sabatella's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Denver, CO
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 10,686
QuoteOriginally posted by 8540tomg Quote
I'm not really "worried" about it in any way. It just seems to me that if one purchases the FA limited lenses that you can have it both ways. They will work very well in both formats.
True, but they will work quite differently because of the different FOV. I might be willing to spend $700 or whatever on a wonderful fast 77mm lens for portraiture on APS-C, but no way is that same lens nearly as valuable to me on FF - it's just not nearly as interesting a focal length any more. Or maybe some would find it the other way around. Point being, though, the things that make a lens valuale on one system will change on the other. Which can very much change one's perception of whether a given lens is worth buying.

Another thing worth considering: most FF cameras have an option to still shoot APS-C (eg, internally cropping the extra pixels). So you can still use your lenses to provide the FOV you are accustomed to on APS-C. So if you are attached to the FOV of the lenses you own - and why wouldn't you be? - you would always have that method of preserving that.

QuoteQuote:
I haven't made a study of this but it is my understanding most if not all DA lenses will vignette in full frame.
Actually, apparently some don't (like the DA40), but I haven't made a study either. The telephotos would be more likely not to.

QuoteQuote:
All things being equal it would seem prudent to go with the FA limited and keep all options open. Thoughts?
Only if you don't mind spending twice as much money on your lenses as you need to, and if you don't see the point of quick shift, and if you don't attach much value to the smaller size of the DA limiteds, and if you don't mind either giving up the FOV that enticed you to buy those lenses in the first place or buying a more expensive FF camera and then not using half the pixels in order to preserve the old FOV. To me, that's an awful lot to trade off.
11-29-2008, 10:07 AM   #28
Veteran Member
Eaglerapids's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Idaho,USA
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,588
QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Only if you don't mind spending twice as much money on your lenses as you need to, and if you don't see the point of quick shift, and if you don't attach much value to the smaller size of the DA limiteds, and if you don't mind either giving up the FOV that enticed you to buy those lenses in the first place or buying a more expensive FF camera and then not using half the pixels in order to preserve the old FOV. To me, that's an awful lot to trade off.
Good points here Marc but the the FA Limiteds have one other big advantage-speed and great bokeh obtained with wider apertures. But their price is a killer, no doubt and with the price increases being talked about the price will be even more prohibitive. That's why I had to pull the trigger on the 77LTD when Prodigital was selling it for $549.99 and it was eligible for the 25% Microsoft cashback. The last time I looked B&H was selling it for $669.00 plus shipping. I paid $412.50 plus shipping. Well after I get my cashback:-). A bit cheaper than most places sell the DA 70mm F2.4, Amazon has one for $439.95 with free shipping right now.
Who knows what prices will do in the next year, if deals turn up where the FA Limiteds start going for half of their current price I will have lost (except I will have mine for however many months till that happens happily clicking away) but what are the chances of that? Maybe Prodigital will get in a new shipment and sell them cheaper than they are now. Who knows? I've been wanting the 77Ltd ever since I got the 31Ltd and fell in love with it and this seemed like the best price I was likely to get. If I had only used that Ebay 10% coupon............

edit:
I can't deny the advantage of the quick shift feature of the DA's. To me it's a bigger advantage than the size difference between the FA's and DA's. Still, the build quality and that little extra "something" of the FALtd's makes them quite an attractive package.

Last edited by Eaglerapids; 11-29-2008 at 10:15 AM.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
da, fa, frame, k-mount, lens, lenses, pentax lens, series, slr lens
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
full frame digital beaumont Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 55 01-30-2011 06:31 AM
LX + Scan=Full Frame Digital ziggy7 Pentax Film SLR Discussion 45 01-09-2011 01:59 AM
Is full frame the medium format of the digital era ? ghelary Photographic Technique 2 05-28-2009 08:50 AM
Digital Only or Full Frame lenses JamieP Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 15 05-10-2009 08:48 PM
Full Frame Digital with DA lenses konraDarnok Pentax News and Rumors 27 08-20-2008 11:07 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:19 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top