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11-01-2021, 07:25 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by house Quote
Vintage uwas aren't good enough IMHO. A 50mm or short tele will do quite well. Uwa lenses will have a lot of flaws compared to contemporary glass. In addition they arent cheap like the longer focal lengths, nor are they plentiful.
The Pentax M 20mm f4 is an excellent UWA prime. Northcoast Greg has taken extremely nice pictures with his on his K-1.

I do agree that this lens is not usually found cheaply and they are not very common. It took me a while to buy a copy.

11-01-2021, 08:04 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by pres589 Quote
The Pentax M 20mm f4 is an excellent UWA prime. Northcoast Greg has taken extremely nice pictures with his on his K-1.

I do agree that this lens is not usually found cheaply and they are not very common. It took me a while to buy a copy.
The rarer Pentax lenses you pay collectors tax on. People buy them for what they are not what they do.

I managed to get hold of a K 4/20 but it was ruined by lens polishing so I returned it. I paid less for my Samyang 1.4/24 which is in a completely different league performance wise. Not as nice and compact though.

No doubt you can get some very nice images with the vintage Pentax glass but you're still paying to much for the performace when using it in a K-1. Unless you made a proper bargain that is.

Last edited by house; 11-01-2021 at 08:14 AM.
11-01-2021, 08:22 AM   #33
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It depends on what you value and how able a person is at paying the going rate if the cost is "too much" for a lens, like anything else. Getting the M 20 was not hard for me to rationalize.
11-02-2021, 10:27 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Specifications:

D-FA 21mm f2.4:
Weight = 416 g
Size = 74 x 89 mm
Filter size = 67mm
Autofocus = Yes
Pixie dust = Yes, in quantity
Takes square filters: No
Amazon DE price = 1511 Euro

Samyang 20mm f1.8:
Weight = 493 g (77 g heavier )
Size = 83x87 mm (+9mm diameter )
Filter size = 77mm
Autofocus = No
Pixie dust = Not included
Takes square filters: Yes
Amazon DE price = 483 Euro

Cost for Autofocus + Pixe dust ~1000 Euro ?
Has one tested the D FA21/2.4 Limited on whether this newly designed lens actually has "pixie dust" . I have all of the "Three Amigos" (31/1.8 Limited, 43/1.9 Limited, and 77/1.8 Limited) and would in a heart beat get the D FA21/2.4 Limited to replace my D FA15-30/2.8.

---------- Post added 11-02-21 at 12:44 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I get that in general. Specifically with wide / ultra-wide lenses, my experience says something different: I don't need a zoom around UWA because I found my optimal wide angle focal length I like to work with and I found that little movements are enough to change compositions / perspectives when using a wide angle prime. I use the DFA15-30 mostly at 20mm and never at 30mm unless I don't have any other lens with me, otherwise I use another lens; I almost never use the DFA15-30 at 15mm, too wide to my taste. The only reason I bought the 15-30 at the time was 1) there was no other wide angle choice new for the K1 and 2) the discount from buying a camera+lenses bundle. I've use the DA15 and DA17-70 kit a lot, it's my ideal travel kit: 1 wide prime and 1 trans-standard zoom. For the K1, my ideal compact kit would be: 20mm prime + DFA 28-105, and with that kit only I can do a lot.
A couple of years ago I needed an UWA lens for my K-1 and looked at the D FA15-30/2.8 versus the Laowa 12/2.8. At the time I used two copies of the D FA15-30/2.8 and both had off center mounting issues that produced severe edge image degradation. I then tried the Laowa 12/2.8. The first copy had the same off center mounting issues and I rejected it and my second copy of the Laowa 12/2.8 was spot on and was accepted. The auto focus on the D FA 15-30/2.8 is nice but the DOF is so great is not something I miss on the Laowa 12/2.0. The D FA15-30/2.8 is HEAVY and MASSIVE! Fast forward to early this year, I was acquired a D FA15-30/2.8 at a price I could not refuse and was optically fine. Using on my next trip, I again found the D FA15-30/2.8 way to heavy and massive on my K-1. I think I will trade or sell it with the funds going to a D FA21/2.4 Limited (to complete my Three Amigos "Limited" set). I also have the FA20/2.8 and will see which one will stay in the lens library.

---------- Post added 11-02-21 at 12:47 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I get that in general. Specifically with wide / ultra-wide lenses, my experience says something different: I don't need a zoom around UWA because I found my optimal wide angle focal length I like to work with and I found that little movements are enough to change compositions / perspectives when using a wide angle prime. I use the DFA15-30 mostly at 20mm and never at 30mm unless I don't have any other lens with me, otherwise I use another lens; I almost never use the DFA15-30 at 15mm, too wide to my taste. The only reason I bought the 15-30 at the time was 1) there was no other wide angle choice new for the K1 and 2) the discount from buying a camera+lenses bundle. I've use the DA15 and DA17-70 kit a lot, it's my ideal travel kit: 1 wide prime and 1 trans-standard zoom. For the K1, my ideal compact kit would be: 20mm prime + DFA 28-105, and with that kit only I can do a lot.
A couple of years ago I needed an UWA lens for my K-1 and looked at the D FA15-30/2.8 versus the Laowa 12/2.8. At the time I used two copies of the D FA15-30/2.8 and both had off center mounting issues that produced severe edge image degradation. I then tried the Laowa 12/2.8. The first copy had the same off center mounting issues and I rejected it and my second copy of the Laowa 12/2.8 was spot on and was accepted. The auto focus on the D FA 15-30/2.8 is nice but the DOF is so great is not something I miss on the Laowa 12/2.0. The D FA15-30/2.8 is HEAVY and MASSIVE! Fast forward to early this year, I was acquired a D FA15-30/2.8 at a price I could not refuse and was optically fine. Using the D FA15-30/2.8 on my next trip, I again found the D FA15-30/2.8 way to heavy and massive on my K-1. I think I will trade or sell it with the funds going to a D FA21/2.4 Limited (to complete my Three Amigos "Limited" set). I also have the FA20/2.8 and will see which one will stay in the lens library.


Last edited by Kingman; 11-02-2021 at 10:48 AM.
11-02-2021, 10:53 AM - 1 Like   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I get that in general. Specifically with wide / ultra-wide lenses, my experience says something different: I don't need a zoom around UWA because I found my optimal wide angle focal length I like to work with and I found that little movements are enough to change compositions / perspectives when using a wide angle prime. I use the DFA15-30 mostly at 20mm and never at 30mm unless I don't have any other lens with me, otherwise I use another lens; I almost never use the DFA15-30 at 15mm, too wide to my taste. The only reason I bought the 15-30 at the time was 1) there was no other wide angle choice new for the K1 and 2) the discount from buying a camera+lenses bundle. I've use the DA15 and DA17-70 kit a lot, it's my ideal travel kit: 1 wide prime and 1 trans-standard zoom. For the K1, my ideal compact kit would be: 20mm prime + DFA 28-105, and with that kit only I can do a lot.
QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I don't need a zoom around UWA because I found my optimal wide angle focal length I like to work with and I found that little movements are enough to change compositions / perspectives when using a wide angle prime
On this summer's climb of Mount Rainier I took the newly arrived HD 31/1.8. I limit myself to only one lens on hard mountaineering outings, and that is usually FA 20-35/4, but this time I felt I want to try something different, particularly in the low light of the eerie dawns on the mountain. Not convinced 31mm is wide enough I added the dependable 20-35/4 to the bag, just in case. In the end I took a series of great photos solely with the 31/1.8, from evening to next afternoon, not ever considering I might need the zoom. Indeed wide angle zooms are overrated, one judicially chosen fix focal covers a lot. That's why I (pre)ordered the 21/2.4 Limited the moment it became available, not second thoughts.

Oh, and the Samyang? I owned two copies of the Rokinon 14/2.8 (same manufacturer). First I returned with defective electric contacts, second developed the same issue one year later. I cannot afford to be let down by gear in a remote, difficult trip. Pentax is inexpensive relative to the photo opportunities.
11-02-2021, 12:11 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kingman Quote
would in a heart beat get the D FA21/2.4 Limited to replace my D FA15-30/2.8.
Credit card electronic transfer is faster than a heart beat. Quick decisions aren't necessarily the good ones. Nikon Z 20 1.8 is ~1000 euros, Viltrox 24 1.8 is ~400 euros. Basically, the price difference between 3 Pentax primes and 3 Nikon primes buys me half Nikon Z7II. If I add 2 zooms: 24-70 f4 and Tamy 70-210 (same as Pentax 70-210) , the total price difference buys me the Z7II. With the Z7II I get slightly better IQ than Pentax K1, silent shooting,smaller lighter body, 500 AF points covering the entire frame, focus stacking, 4K video and so on.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 11-02-2021 at 12:18 PM.
11-02-2021, 12:35 PM   #37
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The math is tough on Pentax these days.

11-02-2021, 02:02 PM - 1 Like   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Credit card electronic transfer is faster than a heart beat. Quick decisions aren't necessarily the good ones. Nikon Z 20 1.8 is ~1000 euros, Viltrox 24 1.8 is ~400 euros. Basically, the price difference between 3 Pentax primes and 3 Nikon primes buys me half Nikon Z7II. If I add 2 zooms: 24-70 f4 and Tamy 70-210 (same as Pentax 70-210) , the total price difference buys me the Z7II. With the Z7II I get slightly better IQ than Pentax K1, silent shooting,smaller lighter body, 500 AF points covering the entire frame, focus stacking, 4K video and so on.
Interesting take on the value proposition, in my case I would need to spend way more to invest in a different system to match the capabilities of the equipment I have collected over the last 40 years. Yes, Pentax no longer markets to the low end of the market, that market has switched to phone cameras, what is left is mid to high end, imagine if they kept just doing badge engineering lenses in the future, their reason to continue would quickly disappear. I think that concentrating on a particular segment and delivering quality lenses makes sense, sadly that will mean I need to invest more to support these new lenses, the 50 and 85 mm lenses are spectacular and I hope the new 21mm will match them. Just on the older 20mm lens, here is a link to my review of that lens with some samples, really looking to exceed these results with the new lens
SMC Pentax-FA 20mm F2.8 Reviews - FA Prime Lenses - Pentax Lens Reviews & Lens Database
11-02-2021, 02:11 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by house Quote
I don't!

All Pentax 20mm primes are vintage. 1995 (FA20mm launch) is 26 years ago and the lens is not in production. Samyang may well have QA issues but their 20mm is 21 years younger with a much more complex optical design and a performance that isn't that far off the DFA21 as can be seen in the recent comparisons at pentaxian.de

The FA20 is also a tiny lens. Pentax may be good but they aren't magicians.

I don't own either lens but the following seems about right after comparing samples. I have looking at PK wide angle primes since I got my K-1. I do own the Samyang 1.4/24 which is optically excellent but I still dislike it.

Rokinon 20mm f/1.8 Astrophotography Review: Joshua Tree National Park – Lonely Speck


They are just from completely different era's



Adding the ancient Pentax 20mm's for comparison. Makes it obvious how similar to the really old designs the FA is



and the DFA21
Got it! Your opinion is based on age, not design and that is OK.

I was not sure from your comment, but in case it is not obvious, the A 20/2.8 and the Samyang designs are are quite similar (comparing manual focus to manual focus), despite the Samyang's bulk. It would be interesting for someone to do a direct comparison between the two at f/2.8 (the Samyang's working maximum aperture) and narrower at some point. A well-tuned Samyang may well take the day.

Back to the OP's use case (travel lens). Lacking prejudice against lenses made before the year 2000, I don't think the Samyang would be in my bag for that purpose.


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 11-02-2021 at 02:19 PM.
11-02-2021, 07:41 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by garywakeling Quote
Interesting take on the value proposition, in my case I would need to spend way more to invest in a different system to match the capabilities of the equipment I have collected over the last 40 years.
I wouldn't be in the same situation, considering lenses covering the same focal length are mostly redundant. A 24-120 f4 lens can replace a 24-70 2.8 and 28-105 f5.6 .
11-02-2021, 08:16 PM - 1 Like   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I am pretty sure that I don't know. I don't own the Samyang 20/1.8 or either of the Pentax 20/2.8s. How about you? Do you own any of the three?
I own both the FA 20mm and the Samyang 20mm, so I'll chip in with my limited experience with the two.

The Samyang is better optically, but like you say there is more to it than optical performance. I picked up the FA20 on a whim, when one showed up at a local second-hand store for a very good price. This was well before I bought the Samyang, and while I still shot with APS-C (before I got my K1). When I bought the K1 I picked up the Samyang brand new and got lucky with the copy.

Straight away (i.e., within the return period of the lens) I compared image quality for sharpness, and the Samyang was very much the sharper lens, with the FA20 being weaker on the edges and corners - not by a massive margin, but certainly noticeable. I had the FA disassembled by a technician, as one side of the image was worse than the other, he found a bent/squished shim that indicated that the lens had potentially taken a knock at some point, and although the lens improved it still wasn't up to the level of the Samyang, even stopped down where I tend to use it.

I popped into Lightroom to see if I could find the test photos I took (this is back in 2017, and my cataloguing wasn't very good then), but I haven't found them, so I'm going on memory only.

Like you said though, there are other considerations other than pixel peeping (which was what mattered most to me at the time ). Sample variation is a big problem with Samyang wide angle lenses (the 14mm especially), so if you were looking at buying one I would only consider lenses that I could test beforehand or return. I would also keep in mind that the FA lenses are now getting a bit older and may have similar issues simply from misuse, like mine did. 25 years of service is bound to see some wear. The A 20 is probably built a lot tougher due to not needing to keep the focusing group lightweight for the focus drive motor??

I still have the FA, but I never really used it that much even before I got the Samyang ( hence my limited experience ), so it's sat in a box ever since. I'm too much of a collector/hoarder to part with it, but I'll probably revisit it at some point as corner resolution doesn't matter to me as much these days for landscape photos. The Samyang has a permanent place in my bag, but my overall opinion on it wavers. Some times I am astonished at what it's capable of, and other times I'm a little underwhelmed. Overall my opinion of it is very positive. Unfortunately it's not the lens it used to be. I had an incident where my unattended tripod blew over and the camera landed lens-down on a rock, equipped with the Samyang 20mm. It's now decentered on one side, which shows up in wide-open photos: especially badly in astro. Stopped down it's still good, and aside from it vignetting when stacking filters I have had no other issues with it. If I want to travel light I'll still bundle it with the DFA 28-105 as a two-lens combo.

I am eyeing the Pentax DFA 21mm with some curiosity, as a smaller weather resistant prime would be better for hiking, as long as I can stack filters and the IQ is good stopped down a little. When the price comes down or some second-hand units start popping up I may look at picking one up. If you can find a good copy of the Samyang for a good price, I personally would have no qualms grabbing one again.
11-03-2021, 03:00 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikesbike Quote
Well, getting a prime within the same FL rarely obviates the need and use of a zoom lens. The prime adds additional use for certain needs that are important but does not replace the zoom lens. My DA 15mm does not in any way replace my Sigma 10-20mm f/3.5 lens. But, as I said, it is a wonderful high-quality effortless carrying tool added to expand most any other kit.

The new FF 21mm f/2.4 would relate in much the same way for use with your K-1 kit. Though more costly, and not small- but that is something we have to accept when going with FF, the Samyang is bigger yet, and the new Pentax lens is far more refined in many ways.
I'm with biz-engineer in that I own the DF 15-30, but probably would sell it if I got this lens. I was always looking for a full frame replacement of my DA 15 limited. I don't really need something wider and the bulk of the DFA 15-30 makes it so that if I had a prime of 20-ish mm focal length I would just leave the 15-30 home.
11-03-2021, 09:30 AM - 1 Like   #43
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I am not a fan of ultra wide angle lenses generally, not liking the perspective they offer very much, I do though feel the need to use one now and again, and as an occasional user, the M 20mm f4 fits my needs and has the bonus of being very small and portable with good build quality The IQ is not stellar, but stopped down on the K1 I find it to be acceptable. There are few going on Ebay at present between £215 and £265 which seems very reasonable as I paid £240 for mine a few years ago. Another alternative and an optical improvement is the Voigtlander 20mm f3.5. One here in the UK for £500. If I were a ultra wide fan and used the lens more often, I would be looking at the Voigtlander. I have one in Nikon F and it is good. Personally though, if I know I am going to need an ultra wide, I pick one of my Fuji cameras and use 7artisans' very cheap but good 12mm f2.8. Mirrorless cameras really are better than SLRs for wide angle lenses. The flange distance require that SLR lenses of this ilk have a lot of compromises.
11-04-2021, 05:31 AM   #44
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It occurred to me overnight, that a very cheap solution to the ultrawide angle dilemma for the K1 is actually already available with the DA Ltd 15mm. Just do not use it on 3:2 FF, but on 1:1 crop. Do not use the built in hood either as it will massive vignette.
11-04-2021, 05:50 AM   #45
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I really like the DA 15. I still think it's one of those lenses that gives someone a reason to buy a Pentax APS-C body. I was foolish not to buy my SMC copy sooner. But I do not for an instant think that it can hang in the same league as this new D-FA 21 Ltd. I believe, based on nothing but conjecture, that the 21 will be a clear rung above the 15 in image quality.

If you're going to work with crop mode or other such things to make a lens fully functional on full frame then there should a number of options out there from the film era.
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