Long tele for birding and wildlife

**Henrico** · 10-31-2022, 09:28 PM

My longest lens now is the A400. In case I could spend 4K€ for an AF 2nd hand Pentax super tele, which lens is preferable? A young DFA 560 or an old F/FA 600? Both are found for similar prices on Ebay. My cameras are K1ii and KP. What shoud you choose?

cmohr · 10-31-2022, 10:45 PM

Don't forget about the DFA150-450, it's a great lens, very versatile, great image quality, fast focus and WR, and it can be used with the DA1.4x TC. It's far lighter and easier to control than the Old Superteles, like the FA*600/4 which really needs a substantial tripod and gimbal, or again substantial monopod and tilt head to use effectively . I can't speak for the DA560, some have no issue with handholding it, as it is light enough, and can be easily carried around, still at least a monopod would be my recommendation when using a powerful lens.

hcc · 10-31-2022, 11:09 PM

Would the DA1.4x TC work out for you?
I use the combo FA*300 f4.5 and DA1.4x TC very successfully, giving me 300 mm or 420 mm as I need.
With your 400mm lens, it would give you the choice of 400mm or 560mm.

Hope that the comment may help.

zapp · 11-01-2022, 01:21 AM

Buying old is tricky, AF 4/600 are long discontinued and don’t get younger. Be aware that the big boys require much more handling expertise compared to a typical 400mm glass. You need a larger tripod, work on low vibration everything, carry more weight… working handheld is not your first choice. 150-450 on KP turns out very long. What are your goals with a 150mm longer, 4x heavier lens?

kypfer · 11-01-2022, 01:38 AM

Personally … the more mm the better, but given there's less than 10% difference between the 560mm and the 600mm I'd probably choose the newer lens on the assumption that the (presumably) improved optics and coatings would give a better image.
Enjoy

**Henrico** · 11-01-2022, 02:52 AM

The upgrade from 400 mm is mainly for good autofocus and more reach. And of coarse, these big white lenses are cool to have and use...

kypfer · 11-01-2022, 03:39 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Henrico

... these big white lenses are cool to have and use...

… and tremendously visible when you're trying to be inconspicuous

**mlag** · 11-01-2022, 04:08 AM

Originally posted by cmohr

Don't forget about the DFA150-450, it's a great lens, very versatile, great image quality, fast focus and WR, and it can be used with the DA1.4x TC. It's far lighter and easier to control than the Old Superteles, like the FA*600/4 which really needs a substantial tripod and gimbal, or again substantial monopod and tilt head to use effectively . I can't speak for the DA560, some have no issue with handholding it, as it is light enough, and can be easily carried around, still at least a monopod would be my recommendation when using a powerful lens.

I can confirm the 150-450 (including the 1.4x TC on APS-C as 630mm) as good lens, including handheld use (if not too long...) and with superb autofocus .
I have also an old sigma 500 f4.5 APO ex DG that is just a tiny bit sharper than the 150-450 mm (but only just, for pixel peepers) but also a bit longer and heavier.

2.12.0.0

**Lowell Goudge** · 11-01-2022, 05:03 AM - **3 Likes**

This is perhaps my favourite topic and I have tried almost all imaginable things you can think of.

For years, I shot either a sigma APO70-200/2.8EX (pre digital version) with 1.4x and 2x Sigma TCs, or a K300/4 and 1.7x AF adaptor.

Both these combos worked well enough but were leaving me somewhat wanting for better sharpness at infinity.

In the summer of 2020, I went all in and bought a DA560. Optically, the lens was excellent, but after about a year the lens developed looseness in the lens barrel connections (note that there are several threads on this and the same issue goes all the way back to some very old lenses such as the Takumar/K 500/4.5). In Canada, we had a 2 year warranty from Ricoh Canada, so I sent the lens in for service. It took 4 months to get it back from Japan, and the lens then had the AF fail within about 6 days of its return, so back it went, after about another 3 months, I got it back and after 10 days the focus mechanism seized. Ultimately I agreed with Ricoh Canada that the lens was not sustainable as a working lens and as the production had stopped and no lenses were in stock, we agreed on a full refund.

Still wanting a longer option than what I was shooting, and the more precise focusing of an in lens focus motor, I decided to go for a D FA 150-450 plus the DA1.4 TC. I would couple this to a K3 MKiii for better overall resolution (pixel density).

It took a while for the lens and TC to arrive, and I am still waiting for the K3, but I can say that for what I want I should have gone this route from the beginning. On my K1, the 150-450 is excellent even wide open both without and with the TC. Yes there is some vignetting due to the TC but not significantly worse than the DA560 and for many birding shots you crop in with the K1 anyway. It is also more than 1 kilo lighter. Check out the 300mm lens club where I have posted shots from all the options mentioned in this post.

Note in addition, I also have a tamron adaptall 200-500/5.6 and a celestron C90 (1000mm F11) mirror. But both of these are tripod bound, the tamron because of the poor balance of the lens and the compromises made to fit the mount plus zoom and focus ring, the C90 scope because of focal length. You will spend a lot of time and effort getting a stable platform for either

There are also shooters on the forum, who shoot the DA300/4 with the 1.4x TC on a K3 with great results and a lot of shooters with the A400 as well.

The decision comes down to a very complex set of questions and preferences.
- how much weight are you comfortable with, personally I had no issue hand holding the DA560 on a K1, but I have the arms of a gorilla. The absolute lightest way to get to about 500mm is an A300/4 and 1.7x AF converter, but the DA300/4 and TC isn’t far behind. Older legacy lenses like the FA600/4 weigh a lot more, and the sigma 500/4.5 is about the same as the DA560 at about 3.5 kilos but the sigma lenses are also out of production.
- do you plan to hand hold or use a tripod, all my birding is done while walking the dogs and exclusively hand held
- are you ok with manual focus, or limited AF or do you want full AF
- how much money do you have.

You can also look at the following albums I have for shots with the options I have described.

Lowell Goudge's Album: D-FA 150-450 mwith DA 1.4x rear converter - PentaxForums.com

Lowell Goudge's Album: K300/4 with 1.7x Af Adaptor - PentaxForums.com

Lowell Goudge's Album: Learning the DA 560/5.6 - PentaxForums.com

Lowell Goudge's Album: Sigma 70-200/2.8 EX with Sigma 2X TC - PentaxForums.com

Good luck with what ever you decide

**Henrico** · 11-01-2022, 06:00 AM

Interesting. Some DA560 can be found new, but I suspect these might be refurbished ones sold as new.
My A400 is a pain focussing through the viewfinder. In camera tolerances are not precise enough, what is tack sharp in the finder is not spot on on the sensor. Using live view is perfect, but DSLR's lack EVF's and birding allow viewfinder for feeling and stability.
Maybe I indeed should go for the 150-400. Than I also do not have the issue of not being inconspicious ;-)
One more question: Offers a shot taken with a 150-400 at 400 plus TC1.4x serious more sharpness as a cropped shot taken without the TC? This on a 24 Mp Crop sensor. I mean; outperforms this lens the sensor with 40% ?

**UncleVanya** · 11-01-2022, 06:44 AM

Originally posted by Henrico

Interesting. Some DA560 can be found new, but I suspect these might be refurbished ones sold as new.
My A400 is a pain focussing through the viewfinder. In camera tolerances are not precise enough, what is tack sharp in the finder is not spot on on the sensor. Using live view is perfect, but DSLR's lack EVF's and birding allow viewfinder for feeling and stability.
Maybe I indeed should go for the 150-400. Than I also do not have the issue of not being inconspicious ;-)
One more question: Offers a shot taken with a 150-400 at 400 plus TC1.4x serious more sharpness as a cropped shot taken without the TC? This on a 24 Mp Crop sensor. I mean; outperforms this lens the sensor with 40% ?

A minor point: 150-450, not 400. That might help sway you - particularly since the 400*1.4=560, and 450*1.4=630.

**deanklim** · 11-01-2022, 07:13 AM - **5 Likes**

I went through the same process a couple years ago, ended up buying a FA 600mm f4. It is heavy, and learning how to use it takes some time, very shallow depth of field, but I've gotten some incredible photos with the lens I might not of gotten otherwise. I have also have the 150-450, but when I go out looking for birds and wildlife my go to lens is the 600mm. If you decide to get a 600mm my suggestion would be that if you don't have a super heavy duty tripod, you may need to budget for one, I ended up getting a Gitzo 5543XL and a Wimberley Gimbal. Nothing I had could handle the weight and mass of the 600mm without creating stress vibration.

jslifoaw · 11-01-2022, 07:26 AM

While I'm not an expert in superteles, the 150-450 is an extremely versatile lens. It has quiet and fast focusing with QS, is AW, zooms, and has excellent IQ at all apertures and focal lengths. It is also somewhat hand holdable and relatively easy to transport (it's a chunkier/heavier 70-200/2.8).

While it can't compete with the raw light gathering and reach of a 600/4, the benefits gained in exchange are worth considering (plus, it's cheaper).

I own the M*67 400mm F4, and it is considerably harder to transport and use (mind you, it's also manual focus).

**Lowell Goudge** · 11-01-2022, 07:34 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Henrico

Interesting. Some DA560 can be found new, but I suspect these might be refurbished ones sold as new.
My A400 is a pain focussing through the viewfinder. In camera tolerances are not precise enough, what is tack sharp in the finder is not spot on on the sensor. Using live view is perfect, but DSLR's lack EVF's and birding allow viewfinder for feeling and stability.
Maybe I indeed should go for the 150-400. Than I also do not have the issue of not being inconspicious ;-)
One more question: Offers a shot taken with a 150-400 at 400 plus TC1.4x serious more sharpness as a cropped shot taken without the TC? This on a 24 Mp Crop sensor. I mean; outperforms this lens the sensor with 40% ?

I can’t comment on the impact of the TC on the K3 cropped sensor as I am still waiting for my K3, but when I got the 150-450 and TC, the first day out I shot without the TC and from then on with the TC. I don’t notice any appreciable difference in sharpness on a K1.

The biggest impact on image quality, when deciding with or without TC will be re resulting ISO you are shooting at.

Remember, when cropping in, you might not have the sharpness you want because you may not have considered the need to increase shutter speed for the amount you crop in.

**nixxo2002** · 11-01-2022, 12:52 PM

i don't think it will be a huge upgrade from 400 to 450 for focal length . the next step will be da560 modern lens , sigma 500 f4/5 , or 600/4 .
i own 150-450 and 560mm . both work super with 1.4 tc . all my shots handhold with or without TC . 150-450 better image quality and faster , but da560 give me the reach and it's fantastic lens . the only downside PF in high contrast areas .

10-31-2022, 09:28 PM	#1
Henrico Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Utrecht Photos: Gallery Posts: 255	Long tele for birding and wildlife My longest lens now is the A400. In case I could spend 4K€ for an AF 2nd hand Pentax super tele, which lens is preferable? A young DFA 560 or an old F/FA 600? Both are found for similar prices on Ebay. My cameras are K1ii and KP. What shoud you choose?

11-01-2022, 05:03 AM - 3 Likes	#9
Lowell Goudge Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,887	This is perhaps my favourite topic and I have tried almost all imaginable things you can think of. For years, I shot either a sigma APO70-200/2.8EX (pre digital version) with 1.4x and 2x Sigma TCs, or a K300/4 and 1.7x AF adaptor. Both these combos worked well enough but were leaving me somewhat wanting for better sharpness at infinity. In the summer of 2020, I went all in and bought a DA560. Optically, the lens was excellent, but after about a year the lens developed looseness in the lens barrel connections (note that there are several threads on this and the same issue goes all the way back to some very old lenses such as the Takumar/K 500/4.5). In Canada, we had a 2 year warranty from Ricoh Canada, so I sent the lens in for service. It took 4 months to get it back from Japan, and the lens then had the AF fail within about 6 days of its return, so back it went, after about another 3 months, I got it back and after 10 days the focus mechanism seized. Ultimately I agreed with Ricoh Canada that the lens was not sustainable as a working lens and as the production had stopped and no lenses were in stock, we agreed on a full refund. Still wanting a longer option than what I was shooting, and the more precise focusing of an in lens focus motor, I decided to go for a D FA 150-450 plus the DA1.4 TC. I would couple this to a K3 MKiii for better overall resolution (pixel density). It took a while for the lens and TC to arrive, and I am still waiting for the K3, but I can say that for what I want I should have gone this route from the beginning. On my K1, the 150-450 is excellent even wide open both without and with the TC. Yes there is some vignetting due to the TC but not significantly worse than the DA560 and for many birding shots you crop in with the K1 anyway. It is also more than 1 kilo lighter. Check out the 300mm lens club where I have posted shots from all the options mentioned in this post. Note in addition, I also have a tamron adaptall 200-500/5.6 and a celestron C90 (1000mm F11) mirror. But both of these are tripod bound, the tamron because of the poor balance of the lens and the compromises made to fit the mount plus zoom and focus ring, the C90 scope because of focal length. You will spend a lot of time and effort getting a stable platform for either There are also shooters on the forum, who shoot the DA300/4 with the 1.4x TC on a K3 with great results and a lot of shooters with the A400 as well. The decision comes down to a very complex set of questions and preferences. - how much weight are you comfortable with, personally I had no issue hand holding the DA560 on a K1, but I have the arms of a gorilla. The absolute lightest way to get to about 500mm is an A300/4 and 1.7x AF converter, but the DA300/4 and TC isn’t far behind. Older legacy lenses like the FA600/4 weigh a lot more, and the sigma 500/4.5 is about the same as the DA560 at about 3.5 kilos but the sigma lenses are also out of production. - do you plan to hand hold or use a tripod, all my birding is done while walking the dogs and exclusively hand held - are you ok with manual focus, or limited AF or do you want full AF - how much money do you have. You can also look at the following albums I have for shots with the options I have described. Lowell Goudge's Album: D-FA 150-450 mwith DA 1.4x rear converter - PentaxForums.com Lowell Goudge's Album: K300/4 with 1.7x Af Adaptor - PentaxForums.com Lowell Goudge's Album: Learning the DA 560/5.6 - PentaxForums.com Lowell Goudge's Album: Sigma 70-200/2.8 EX with Sigma 2X TC - PentaxForums.com Good luck with what ever you decide Last edited by Lowell Goudge; 11-01-2022 at 05:17 AM.

11-01-2022, 07:13 AM - 5 Likes	#12
deanklim Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2017 Photos: Albums Posts: 91	I went through the same process a couple years ago, ended up buying a FA 600mm f4. It is heavy, and learning how to use it takes some time, very shallow depth of field, but I've gotten some incredible photos with the lens I might not of gotten otherwise. I have also have the 150-450, but when I go out looking for birds and wildlife my go to lens is the 600mm. If you decide to get a 600mm my suggestion would be that if you don't have a super heavy duty tripod, you may need to budget for one, I ended up getting a Gitzo 5543XL and a Wimberley Gimbal. Nothing I had could handle the weight and mass of the 600mm without creating stress vibration. Attached Images

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10-31-2022, 10:45 PM	#2
cmohr Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Brisbane. Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,824	Don't forget about the DFA150-450, it's a great lens, very versatile, great image quality, fast focus and WR, and it can be used with the DA1.4x TC. It's far lighter and easier to control than the Old Superteles, like the FA*600/4 which really needs a substantial tripod and gimbal, or again substantial monopod and tilt head to use effectively . I can't speak for the DA560, some have no issue with handholding it, as it is light enough, and can be easily carried around, still at least a monopod would be my recommendation when using a powerful lens.

10-31-2022, 11:09 PM	#3
hcc Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Brisbane, Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,002	Would the DA1.4x TC work out for you? I use the combo FA*300 f4.5 and DA1.4x TC very successfully, giving me 300 mm or 420 mm as I need. With your 400mm lens, it would give you the choice of 400mm or 560mm. Hope that the comment may help.

11-01-2022, 01:21 AM	#4
zapp Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,385	Buying old is tricky, AF 4/600 are long discontinued and don’t get younger. Be aware that the big boys require much more handling expertise compared to a typical 400mm glass. You need a larger tripod, work on low vibration everything, carry more weight… working handheld is not your first choice. 150-450 on KP turns out very long. What are your goals with a 150mm longer, 4x heavier lens?

11-01-2022, 01:38 AM	#5
kypfer Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Jersey C.I. Posts: 3,593	Personally … the more mm the better, but given there's less than 10% difference between the 560mm and the 600mm I'd probably choose the newer lens on the assumption that the (presumably) improved optics and coatings would give a better image. Enjoy

11-01-2022, 02:52 AM	#6
Henrico Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Utrecht Photos: Gallery Posts: 255 Original Poster	The upgrade from 400 mm is mainly for good autofocus and more reach. And of coarse, these big white lenses are cool to have and use...

11-01-2022, 03:39 AM - 1 Like	#7
kypfer Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Jersey C.I. Posts: 3,593	Originally posted by Henrico ... these big white lenses are cool to have and use... … and tremendously visible when you're trying to be inconspicuous

11-01-2022, 04:08 AM	#8
mlag Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2021 Location: Zuiderkempen - Grote Netewoud - Belgium Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,397	Originally posted by cmohr Don't forget about the DFA150-450, it's a great lens, very versatile, great image quality, fast focus and WR, and it can be used with the DA1.4x TC. It's far lighter and easier to control than the Old Superteles, like the FA*600/4 which really needs a substantial tripod and gimbal, or again substantial monopod and tilt head to use effectively . I can't speak for the DA560, some have no issue with handholding it, as it is light enough, and can be easily carried around, still at least a monopod would be my recommendation when using a powerful lens. I can confirm the 150-450 (including the 1.4x TC on APS-C as 630mm) as good lens, including handheld use (if not too long...) and with superb autofocus . I have also an old sigma 500 f4.5 APO ex DG that is just a tiny bit sharper than the 150-450 mm (but only just, for pixel peepers) but also a bit longer and heavier. 2.12.0.0

11-01-2022, 06:00 AM	#10
Henrico Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Utrecht Photos: Gallery Posts: 255 Original Poster	Interesting. Some DA560 can be found new, but I suspect these might be refurbished ones sold as new. My A400 is a pain focussing through the viewfinder. In camera tolerances are not precise enough, what is tack sharp in the finder is not spot on on the sensor. Using live view is perfect, but DSLR's lack EVF's and birding allow viewfinder for feeling and stability. Maybe I indeed should go for the 150-400. Than I also do not have the issue of not being inconspicious ;-) One more question: Offers a shot taken with a 150-400 at 400 plus TC1.4x serious more sharpness as a cropped shot taken without the TC? This on a 24 Mp Crop sensor. I mean; outperforms this lens the sensor with 40% ?

11-01-2022, 06:44 AM	#11
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,401	Originally posted by Henrico Interesting. Some DA560 can be found new, but I suspect these might be refurbished ones sold as new. My A400 is a pain focussing through the viewfinder. In camera tolerances are not precise enough, what is tack sharp in the finder is not spot on on the sensor. Using live view is perfect, but DSLR's lack EVF's and birding allow viewfinder for feeling and stability. Maybe I indeed should go for the 150-400. Than I also do not have the issue of not being inconspicious ;-) One more question: Offers a shot taken with a 150-400 at 400 plus TC1.4x serious more sharpness as a cropped shot taken without the TC? This on a 24 Mp Crop sensor. I mean; outperforms this lens the sensor with 40% ? A minor point: 150-450, not 400. That might help sway you - particularly since the 4001.4=560, and 4501.4=630.

11-01-2022, 07:26 AM	#13
jslifoaw Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Toronto/Victoria Posts: 460	While I'm not an expert in superteles, the 150-450 is an extremely versatile lens. It has quiet and fast focusing with QS, is AW, zooms, and has excellent IQ at all apertures and focal lengths. It is also somewhat hand holdable and relatively easy to transport (it's a chunkier/heavier 70-200/2.8). While it can't compete with the raw light gathering and reach of a 600/4, the benefits gained in exchange are worth considering (plus, it's cheaper). I own the M*67 400mm F4, and it is considerably harder to transport and use (mind you, it's also manual focus).

11-01-2022, 07:34 AM - 1 Like	#14
Lowell Goudge Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,887	Originally posted by Henrico Interesting. Some DA560 can be found new, but I suspect these might be refurbished ones sold as new. My A400 is a pain focussing through the viewfinder. In camera tolerances are not precise enough, what is tack sharp in the finder is not spot on on the sensor. Using live view is perfect, but DSLR's lack EVF's and birding allow viewfinder for feeling and stability. Maybe I indeed should go for the 150-400. Than I also do not have the issue of not being inconspicious ;-) One more question: Offers a shot taken with a 150-400 at 400 plus TC1.4x serious more sharpness as a cropped shot taken without the TC? This on a 24 Mp Crop sensor. I mean; outperforms this lens the sensor with 40% ? I can’t comment on the impact of the TC on the K3 cropped sensor as I am still waiting for my K3, but when I got the 150-450 and TC, the first day out I shot without the TC and from then on with the TC. I don’t notice any appreciable difference in sharpness on a K1. The biggest impact on image quality, when deciding with or without TC will be re resulting ISO you are shooting at. Remember, when cropping in, you might not have the sharpness you want because you may not have considered the need to increase shutter speed for the amount you crop in.

11-01-2022, 12:52 PM	#15
nixxo2002 Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 824	i don't think it will be a huge upgrade from 400 to 450 for focal length . the next step will be da560 modern lens , sigma 500 f4/5 , or 600/4 . i own 150-450 and 560mm . both work super with 1.4 tc . all my shots handhold with or without TC . 150-450 better image quality and faster , but da560 give me the reach and it's fantastic lens . the only downside PF in high contrast areas .