[tryphon4]

K-Three, Athanassios, thanks for your comments!
Sorry, I bought yesterday a used Sigma 24mm F1.8 at B&H, due to my LBA. So I will anew own this marvelous lens (that is quite big but I do not care), this time I will not resell it!
For information, I bought it 200$, it is not expensive for such a lens.

[mikesbike]

Actually, Pentax having come up with newer replacement lenses for a number of previous models of various FL, the relatively important FA* 24mm f/2 FF prime lens has long gone out of production, yet remains a very important lens. Where is the DFA* replacement? Such a lens could serve both FF and APS-C usage very well. Upgrades could include a new optical formula for improved performance especially at frame edges, HD coatings, a high-performing DC AF motor, and WR construction.

[Digitalis]

Plus the old 50/1.2 has probably lost its SMC coating over the decades

Incorrect, electron sputtered coatings are impressively resilient and the oxide films are quite firmly affixed to the substrate.


Barring any catastrophic events the optical coatings are likely just as good as they were the day the lens was made.

[Sandy Hancock]

So, to summarise: you want fast and wide, but don't want to buy big, heavy or expensive lenses, or move to full frame.

As the Man In Black said to Inigo Montoya, "Get used to disappointment"

The only realistic options I can see are:
the Sigma 18-35/1.8 if you insist on sticking with crop, but it's not very wide
a K-1 with FA*24/2.0, DFA21/2.4 or one of the even faster MF Samyangs.

But they have already been mentioned here, and rejected.

[Athanassios]

Most people don't use Topaz or other Denise software, I've gone as high as 3200 ISO on my original K-3

This one at 1600 ISO


When you read reviews, use them to find out what the cameras can do.... not to determine what they can't do. What one person can't do, someone else can. And 100 people saying what it can't do is negated by one person showing that it can be done.

Thank you for the feedback. Yes, K-3 is indeed very good at ISO1600 at your photo. Does the lens help?

---------- Post added 11-06-22 at 01:25 PM ----------

So, to summarise: you want fast and wide, but don't want to buy big, heavy or expensive lenses, or move to full frame.

As the Man In Black said to Inigo Montoya, "Get used to disappointment"

The only realistic options I can see are:
the Sigma 18-35/1.8 if you insist on sticking with crop, but it's not very wide
a K-1 with FA*24/2.0, DFA21/2.4 or one of the even faster MF Samyangs.

But they have already been mentioned here, and rejected.

Dear Sandy, it’s not a sin to ask just in case you missed something during a quest for something particular. Did a lot of research, hence my premeditated and negative opinions on alternatives I had already in mind. It was never in my plans to buy a whole new set of gear and spend 2500€/$ just for two stops in a field of photography (wide&fast) I wanted to expand my photography. DA* 16-50 / 2.8 is slower and bulkier for my hopes but I guess I will have to find a mix of speed/ISO to reach my goal. From all I’ve read the DA* 11-18/2.8 is a better investment than the Sigmas or the Samyangs.
If Pentax one day produces a wide 1.4 it’ll be my happy day.

---------- Post added 11-06-22 at 01:31 PM ----------

Incorrect, electron sputtered coatings are impressively resilient and the oxide films are quite firmly affixed to the substrate.


Barring any catastrophic events the optical coatings are likely just as good as they were the day the lens was made.

I won’t disagree with you but in my head I just don’t think that a lens as old as myself or my wife (1975-1984) is the best Pentax can offer and it’s a good offer for what is currently unavailable in modern technology or in what Pentax wants to offer.

---------- Post added 11-06-22 at 01:33 PM ----------

actually, pentax having come up with newer replacement lenses for a number of previous models of various fl, the relatively important fa* 24mm f/2 ff prime lens has long gone out of production, yet remains a very important lens. Where is the fda* replacement? Such a lens could serve both ff and aps-c usage very well. Upgrades could include a new optical formula for improved performance especially at frame edges, hd coatings, a high-performing dc af motor, and wr construction.

thank you !!! 🙏

---------- Post added 11-06-22 at 01:34 PM ----------

K-Three, Athanassios, thanks for your comments!
Sorry, I bought yesterday a used Sigma 24mm F1.8 at B&H, due to my LBA. So I will anew own this marvelous lens (that is quite big but I do not care), this time I will not resell it!
For information, I bought it 200$, it is not expensive for such a lens.

The last one actually since there is none available now 🥹. Enjoy! 😊

---------- Post added 11-06-22 at 01:40 PM ----------

I routinely shoot at iso 3200 with my KP. I shoot at iso 6400 or 12800 some but some quality is lost then. Are you shooting raw or jpg? I really think your standard of a 16mm f1.4 is unobtainable. Look at ALL brands, only mirrorless has any lenses this fast at this f stop. The short flange distance and lack of retrofocal design plus the ability to correct the distortion in the EVF make different designs possible that don’t exist for dslr.

You can get an f2 manual focus 16mm: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/981709-REG/rokinon_16m_p_16mm_f2_0_ul...981&

---------- Post added 11-05-22 at 08:16 AM ----------

Thinking about this I wonder if moving to full frame is the answer as a 24mm f1.4 is obtainable.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/868737-REG/Samyang_SY24M_P_24mm_f_1_4...981&

Still manual focus however.

If 10-16mp is really enough a Nikon D700 (12mp) or D750 (24mp) plus the Nikon 24mm f1.4 lens begin to look like an option:

icon/midnight/@menu

Always shoot in DNG. And I guess I need a few more thousand clicks on “wide and slow” before I decide.

---------- Post added 11-06-22 at 01:45 PM ----------

I am not quite following you here. A16mm FF lens or a 50mm FF lens is still 16mm or 50mm when mounted on an aps-c camera.

The lens yes but the sensor produces a cropped result as if the mm is 1.54 “larger”. So shooting with a 50mm is actually like shooting with a 77mm since the sensor uses it as a 77. Correct me if I am wrong.

---------- Post added 11-06-22 at 01:59 PM ----------

OK, here's the easy thing to do, maybe post an image you think would be better with 1.2 or 1.4. Then we have something to talk about. It's unfortunate, but people like myself, listen to tall this ƒ1.2 nd ƒ 1.4 stuff. I bought my DA*55 50 1.4 based on the chatter. The way I shoot is I take 5 or 6 images at different ISOs and aperture settings and pick the one I think is best. I have not one image where I selected the 1.4. ƒ2 is the lowest that produces useable images. This year I have 3 ƒ2 images and over 2 BG of keepers on my hard drive. None of those three made onto Flickr for others to see, but they are still good enough to keep on my hard drive, in that there was nothing serious wrong with them.

SO seeing what you hope to accomplish would help. Maybe you can get what you want without going to even ƒ2.

"Also, a used K-1 will probably be easier to manage than buying new very wide F1.4 lenses for APS-C!"

ƒ/2 on a K-1 is the same as ƒ1.4 on APS-c. ƒ1.4 on a K-1 is the same as ƒ1.2 on APS-c. So, if you really want ƒ1.2 APS-c, if you go 1.4 on a K-1 is the way to go. Then you have tons of choice.

But I would seriously question wide angle and a ƒ1.2, especially on APS-c. Wide angle has so much more DOF. For isolating the subject from the background, probably the least want to use, is a 50 on FF. If you want extremely narrow DoF, FF is your best choice. Absolutely.

If you just want more light, a small sensor camera is your best choice. You get more DoF with the same amount of light with small sensor.

Small sensor, ƒ3.5, almost infinite depth of field. If this is your goal, use your iPhone 14. But, I really have no idea what your goal is. This FZ100 is almost the same resolution as my K-3 in LW/PH.


If you can more clearly define what you're after we can offer solutions. There are two aspects to a wide Aperture , DoF and lower shutter speed. Which are you after? They require different solutions.

My objective is to produce a dramatised perspective using all a metropolitan universe has to offer “within the light of darkness”. I look at the wide as another type of zooming in into reality. Don’t wanna turn into BW in order to cover up all flaws and turn them into abstract art. So (new that I think of it) the DA* 11-18/2.8 is the only one that gives me the best chance to achieve all this even if 2 stops slower than what I wanted. And last but not least thank you for the time and wisdom you shared with us. 🙏

---------- Post added 11-06-22 at 02:01 PM ----------

You still have not said what camera body you have. I think newer APSC cameras will give better ISO results than you realize. Also if 24mp is more than you need you can apply downsampling to pick up additional noise reduction. 24 - 16mp is not a huge downsample however.

My conclusion is that there is no outcome that gets what you want. So, let's try framing the outcome with a different approach:

1) Given there are no wide angle K mount options that get the angle of view you want that have better than f2 and are autofocus.
2) You stated that 10-16mp was plenty.
3) The K-1 in crop mode is 15mp and similar to a K-5iis in noise in this mode.
4) The FA* 24mm f2 is readily available used.
5) f2 on FF is about f1.4 on crop for Depth of Field
6) FF offers at least 1 stop lower noise so ISO 1600 should look very similar to ISO 800 when shooting in FF mode.
7) Downsampling allows you to take the 36mp FF image and make it about 15mp and gain about 1 stop of noise further.

Bearing these factors in mind; my recommendation is that you buy an FA* 24/2 and a K-1.

• You can keep using your existing crop lenses (no throwing away investment) by shooting in crop mode and getting about the MP you wanted to start with.
• You can add FF lenses - particularly at the wide end - to enhance your options. Your FA 31 will suddenly be a moderate wide angle - and a fine one at that.
• You can stick to Pentax - which you clearly want to do. It's a win all over.

Honestly thank you for all the knowledge you gave me. I’ll definitely think it over again using all that you wrote.

---------- Post added 11-06-22 at 02:05 PM ----------

Ok, I am with @normhead on this, as I don't quite get why would you need f1.4 or faster lens for city shots? If it is dark, get a tripod, otherwise just use slower 15mm Limited or 11-18 DA* if you really need it relatively fast. Unless it is just a case of "fast prime is a must" hype that lately is popular over internet.

I already just answered the first part of your post to an earlier comment so please forgive me if I just suggest you read it from there. (No disrespect or anything&#128522

As far as your last sentence you caught my by surprise as I didn’t know that such a hype even existed. My quest is solely based on personal and only personal preferences. Always had, always will.

[UncleVanya]

Just be clear. Any 16mm lens gives the same rough angle of view on an apsc camera. FF or crop lens makes no difference. What’s equally true is that a 16mm (non-fisheye) gives about the same angle of view on a crop camera as a 24mm does on FF.

Conversely, 24mm crop lens may fail to give as wide an image on FF as a 24mm FF lens if the coverage is limited to only apsc. Many apsc lenses exceed apsc coverage to a varying degree so square crops or even no crop may yield good results with a DA lens on a FF camera.

[pschlute]

The lens yes but the sensor produces a cropped result as if the mm is 1.54 “larger”. So shooting with a 50mm is actually like shooting with a 77mm since the sensor uses it as a 77. Correct me if I am wrong

You said this earlier .....

The "good old" 50/1.2 turns telephoto 77 to my cameras and I already have the 70/2.4

You seem to be a little confused. The SMC 50mm will be nothing like a DA 70mm on your camera. It is 20mm shorter.

An aps-c designed 50mm lens and a FF designed 50mm lens will both produce exactly the same field of view and magnification on your aps-c camera.

---

Last edited by pschlute; 11-06-2022 at 06:50 PM.

[mikesbike]

If Pentax one day produces a wide 1.4 it’ll be my happy day.

Unfortunately, it would need to be very large and heavy, even if for APS-C, and very costly. Like telephoto also, with WA- as it goes wider it gets bigger and heavier, especially if also including a larger aperture, and will be much more expensive. Still not knowing the camera models you shoot with, these being a very important factor in dealing with what you are after- the camera model can make a huge difference in the outcome you can achieve. Your reluctance to go over ISO 800 indicates a reduced performance capability compared with later Pentax camera models. Just one stop of improvement means you can double your ISO settings with even better results in later models, as some could double that again and more.

The faster wide angle situation is one of the reasons a couple of years ago I decided to also get into FF and bought a new K-1 II. The price here in the US had dropped, making it actually less expensive than the new K-3 III! I got the kit package with the very fine-performing DFA 28-105mm lens at $100 USD off the lens cost, in addition to the price drop for the new camera. The K-1 II approximates the ISO capability of the new K-3 III by way of its accelerator being added in the mark II, and by way of having the basic advantage of a good FF sensor, which also has other aspects for potentially superior results. This decision was as an addition- still keeping my excellent APS-C equipment. Each has advantages. I also already had a number of excellent FF lenses from my 35mm film shooting days, which begged to be put back into service in FF capacity once again.

To give just one example here, as we've been discussing very good Sigma 24mm f/1.8 or Pentax FA* 24mm f/2 lenses as an option for your APS-C use. This is a workable option, though far from perfect. For one thing, these lenses, though very good, are not so good when it comes to the frame edge performance, which drops off more and more in getting farther away from the central area. Stopping down helps, but not getting into the "good" performance range in edge areas until at least f/4 or f/5.6 or so. 24mm provides a moderate wide angle similar to 35mm on a FF body. Then take the Pentax HD FA 35mm f/2, which provides a 'normal" angle of view on APS-C like a 50mm lens on a FF body, not WA at all. But on a FF body, it is the same as a 24mm lens on APS-C. Yet, this lens will blow away either of those 24mm lenses in performance. Very good to excellent sharpness edge-to-edge across the frame- even at wide open aperture! It has been updated, given a better build quality and with HD coatings, is compact and light to carry, and still at a reasonable price brand new!

Then with it on a K-1 II you have the additional image quality afforded by this FF model. You can shoot the same scene with any of those 24mm lenses on APS-C, and even if they were as good as the FA HD 35mm f/2 in edge-to-edge quality, you would then have a very fine 24mp image, but still could not equal the same shot and same framing as the FA HD 35mm on the K-1 II would provide, which would be a super-fine 36mp image.

I shoot with the excellent KP as my top APS-C body. It is also exceptional for higher ISO needs, though not to the degree as my K-1 II. It has its own advantages with the right lenses and is much more compact when I need that- which can be very important for me. At the same time, it is also far more advantageous in practical terms when it comes to telephoto needs. There are many examples where one or the other serves best.

All that is said to put forth awareness for the possible options that would bring definite improvement for your needs and possible future needs. Things to think about. Even if you decide to get the fine-performing Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 lens ( not a bad idea), being able to mount it on a KP body would greatly enhance its advantages for image quality, including fine performance at much higher ISO, and would thereby be even far better than equal, compared to your wish for a WA f/1.4 lens on your current body, and at a more manageable size and cost. A perfect-condition KP could be had with some patience.

Important note! I just checked the PF test report of the Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 "Art" lens which found this lens has severe problems with AF accuracy. They tried more than one copy supplied by Sigma, and with several Pentax camera bodies, all with similar results- AF was not dependable when performed through the VF. Really too bad, since in every other respect the lens is both unique and provides very fine sharpness when it is in focus. However, it is also very susceptible to flare in certain lighting situations.

[Athanassios]

…

I am flattered by your in depth response and all your comments that you shared with me. I appreciate it.

Seems to me that I have to abandon the fast aperture element and focus on two Pentax Options for wide. The DA* 11-18/2.8 and the Limited 15/4 for either serious or walk around options. I think the DA* has the biggest crystals (oversimplified) among all pentax wide lenses.

Attached sample of my work when I was designing eyewear and photographing my own marketing material. Now life is different enough to make me feel like shooting wide.

[Athanassios]

Since I cannot have both fast and wide I had to chose which aspect is more important for me among Pentax lenses. The choice at hand “was” in between the 55mm/f1.4 (fast and tele in APC-S ) or the 15mm/f4Ltd (wide and slowish) The zoom DA* 11-18 f2.8 sounds like a third option but costs like buying both of the above combined.

So I chose the Limited 15mm/f4 since I can half the shutter speed more easily and gain one stop and then increase my ISO by a 1/3 or a 1/2 and basically reach low lights with an f4.

Thank you all for sharing their opinions. As far as FullFrame or Mirrrorless options and gear is concerned, I can’t since I have invested too much money in cropped sensors. And as far nonPentax lenses is concerned like the Sigma’s or Samyang options the answer is again a double no since I trust the company and what it offers is best for me even if I don’t know it.

Just placed my order on a silver 15/4 from bhphotovideo and luckily Ingkt it with a 150$ discount. The price increased as soon as I placed my order. 😏

[UncleVanya]

Since I cannot have both fast and wide I had to chose which aspect is more important for me among Pentax lenses. The choice at hand “was” in between the 55mm/f1.4 (fast and tele in APC-S ) or the 15mm/f4Ltd (wide and slowish) The zoom DA* 11-18 f2.8 sounds like a third option but costs like buying both of the above combined.

So I chose the Limited 15mm/f4 since I can half the shutter speed more easily and gain one stop and then increase my ISO by a 1/3 or a 1/2 and basically reach low lights with an f4.

Thank you all for sharing their opinions. As far as FullFrame or Mirrrorless options and gear is concerned, I can’t since I have invested too much money in cropped sensors. And as far nonPentax lenses is concerned like the Sigma’s or Samyang options the answer is again a double no since I trust the company and what it offers is best for me even if I don’t know it.

Just placed my order on a silver 15/4 from bhphotovideo and luckily Ingkt it with a 150$ discount. The price increased as soon as I placed my order. 😏

The DA15 is a fine lens. The DA14 while only available used is a full stop faster of the 15 proves to be a tad too slow. The 15 is smaller, and it offers better flare resistance. It has pretty high field curvature which can be a problem for chart/test use but has less impact on real world images often. It’s a nice lens, but I think on balance except for weight, size, and price, the DA*11-18 is a better lens.

I will disagree with your assessment of iso and ff. If you upgrade your body to a newer one you can easily gain at least 1 or more likely 2 stops of iso noise performance. If you went to the KP, K-70, K3iii or even the k-1 in crop mode, this would be true, in ff mode the k-1 results would be even better. The fact is your existing glass wouldn’t lose anything on the k-1 in crop mode. And it would allow more options in ff for faster wide angle choices. But the da15 is a fine lens that I expect you will enjoy using for years to come.

[normhead]

hank you for the feedback. Yes, K-3 is indeed very good at ISO1600 at your photo. Does the lens help?

I've never felt the lens affects noise. But proper exposure is essential.

But bottom line, from my perspective even something like the DA 16-85 would work for that type of image. Many lenses would. I think you might be forgetting the narrow DoF that comes with super wide and fast. None of those images feature extremely narrow DoF, which may be the only reason to consider ƒ1.2 or 1.4.

If you're looking at ƒ4.... the DA 16-85 wide open is ƒ3.5....and it's an excellent lens. It has my wife's stamp of approval, and she's way pickier about lenses than I am.

The DA 16-85 is the first "modern lenses for modern sensors" design and in that sense, it will hold up well into the future. Anything older than the DA 16-85 was created under the "Lenses for the way people take pictures, not for the test charts." designs. They tend to be centre sharp and edge soft compared to the newer "edge to edge sharp" lenses. But for the images posted....you really have lots of choice if you're OK with ƒ4.

But then my philosophy is "Buy zooms first, fill in primes in needed or most used focal lengths. But then many good photographers don't share that philosophy.

Test on a 10 MP camera the 15 is less than optimal although those softer edges at ƒ4 and ƒ5.6 will give you smoother out of focus areas.


DA 16-85 tested at 16 MP. You can compare the shape of the curve, but not the resolution, most lenses on a 24 MP sensor are considerably weaker.

[mikesbike]

One negative thing about all-around lenses (wide-to-tele) is at the wide end linear distortion is very high and will be a factor with subjects that include linear aspects. The DA 15mm Ltd is fairly good in this regard, and is a marvelously compact lens to carry. I nearly always have mine along, hardly noticeable in the front accessory pocket of my camera case, when shooting APS-C. As UncleVanya points out, a camera model capable of sharp, low noise performance at higher ISO settings will compensate for less aperture availability quite well, making f/4 as useful as f/2.8 or even f/2 on a less capable camera body.

Ultra-wide zoom lenses- like the DA* 11-18mm f/2.8, tend to have very low, in fact near zero linear distortion as they are zoomed to a mid-point FL.

Nice work with those product shots!

---------- Post added 11-09-22 at 02:51 PM ----------

Just placed my order on a silver 15/4 from bhphotovideo and luckily Ingkt it with a 150$ discount. The price increased as soon as I placed my order. ��

A very good choice. It is a beauty. Mine is also silver and I use it mainly on a silver KP.

[clackers]

I am sorry if I sound like an arse but ideally a pentax DA - Limited/pancake 16mm/f1.4 is my dream

A pancake f1.4 16mm would be rejected by competent designers.

It would have awful image quality.

[Athanassios]

A pancake f1.4 16mm would be rejected by competent designers.

It would have awful image quality.

Pentax has already amazed us all with its Limited editions and its legendary 70/2.4 or the 15/4. Why not hope for the next miracle?