Question for 16-50mm owners

stevebrot · 11-08-2008, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by frank

I'm very surprised to see that they used K10D for the test. I've tried several copies of this lens on several K10D and K20D cameras, all the 1650 lenses I tested on all the K10D cameras have some focusing problem which cause less sharp results. But I haven't seen any focusing problem w/ the lens on several K20D cameras I've tried.

I have to agree on the bad CA problem, although some users reported less CA w/ this lens on a K20D than it is on a K10D ...

Klaus' tests are standardized on the K10D for Pentax mount.

Steve

sewebster · 11-08-2008, 08:59 PM

Review didn't sound so bad to me either. If you haven't read it, make sure you refer to:

Photozone Ratings

rfortson · 11-08-2008, 09:18 PM

My 16-50 works much better on my K20D. CA on my K10D was bad on occasion, but I've never seen it on my K20D. I was disappointed when I bought it, but using it on the K20D has made me much happier.

BTW, the K20D isn't immune to PF. I've seen it just as bad on my K20D using the DA*200, so it's a combination of the two.

frank · 11-09-2008, 01:54 AM

Originally posted by stevebrot

Klaus' tests are standardized on the K10D for Pentax mount.

Steve

By my experience, K10D does have some focusing problem w/ some lenses, especially wide angle lenses. K20D has come out over 8 months now, why not use it as a standardized camera for all new tests?

Bart · 11-09-2008, 02:29 AM

Originally posted by frank

... why not use it as a standardized camera for all new tests?

Because he would have to redo all the previous tests as well in order to be able to compare the lenses.

benjikan · 11-09-2008, 02:38 AM

Originally posted by frank

I'm very surprised to see that they used K10D for the test. I've tried several copies of this lens on several K10D and K20D cameras, all the 1650 lenses I tested on all the K10D cameras have some focusing problem which cause less sharp results. But I haven't seen any focusing problem w/ the lens on several K20D cameras I've tried.

I have to agree on the bad CA problem, although some users reported less CA w/ this lens on a K20D than it is on a K10D ...

I totally agree. The differences are quite radical.

Ben

creampuff · 11-09-2008, 03:43 AM

The K10D's focusing issues are well known. To continue using the K10D as the test benchmark is pretty absurd and doesn't lend much credence to the tests. The price of a K20D has come down quite a bit. There's no reason why it shouldn't be used as the test camera.

dylansalt · 11-09-2008, 06:11 AM

My reasoning is this;

A DA* lens should be near perfect - period - on any Pentax dslr - especially in this day and age.

Its because of all these type of reviews that I continue shooting with the kit zoom - which has literally zero issues

I think the better zoom lens in the wide arena is the 12-24 IMHO and then partnered to a 50-135 and possibly throwing in one of the prime ltds to cover in between 24-50.

d

Bart · 11-09-2008, 06:39 AM

Forum

Klaus answers to a question by Radu (any relation to RaduA perhaps?)

AF accuracy is meaningless for the lab results.

For obvious reasons Nikon will be next in the upgrade queue but even they will have to wait quite a while. I did it on the Canon side because the of the double number of pixels compared to the test camera. This may give you an idea about the pain level which may rectify an upgrade. -----

>You should really update to K20D IMO, then you'll find that one can make a correction for up to 20 lenses individually or global in a 699 Euro camera.
>
>BTW, I noticed no 35mm test like all the other zooms but I am not that much surprised.
>
>Regards,
>Radu
>

audiobomber · 11-09-2008, 07:56 AM

Does the fact that the 16-50 uses dual drive slow down the auto-focus at all? IOW, if it was SDM-only would focus be any faster?

I don't think anyone should complain about the price/performance of the 16-50mm. It's a little better than the 16-45mm in most respects, and it shows in the higher sale price.

RaduA · 11-09-2008, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by Bart

Forum

Klaus answers to a question by Radu (any relation to RaduA perhaps?)

AF accuracy is meaningless for the lab results.

For obvious reasons Nikon will be next in the upgrade queue but even they will have to wait quite a while. I did it on the Canon side because the of the double number of pixels compared to the test camera. This may give you an idea about the pain level which may rectify an upgrade. -----

>You should really update to K20D IMO, then you'll find that one can make a correction for up to 20 lenses individually or global in a 699 Euro camera.
>
>BTW, I noticed no 35mm test like all the other zooms but I am not that much surprised.
>
>Regards,
>Radu
>

Yep, that was me and my remark was about what he said previously: "So you need one camera per lens then. Otherwise a correction will result in focus errors with your other lenses."

I also exchanged some messages on dpreview's forum and from what I understood the K10D sensor has a strong AA filter that penalises border resolution compared to the center. More about this here: Re: conclusion: Pentax badly needs a 16-50 : Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review and in the follow ups. In the end I suggested that he'll do ONE test for the SAME lens with both K10D and a borrowed K20D for us to put things in better perspective considering the sensor behaviour (resolution, patterns of resolution - center, border, extreme border, CA and DR in test pictures). My request was denied.
If Klaus is correct then the Tamron lens will behave pretty much in the same pattern as the DA* on the K10D sensor (higher center resolution, lower on borders). In the end it will probably take a trully outstanding lens for an even pattern considering this claim about the AA filter and the sensor behaviour.
Anyway until we see some numbers about that I consider the border numbers for the DA* bad only compared to the very excelent center ones. Besides I don't know what "border and extreme border" means in area reported to the whole picture anyway maybe someone knows more!?

Regards,
Radu

Sean Nelson · 11-09-2008, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by creampuff

The K10D's focusing issues are well known. To continue using the K10D as the test benchmark is pretty absurd and doesn't lend much credence to the tests.

Autofocusing issues on the K10D have nothing to do with these tests. Klaus uses manual focus with bracketing to make sure that the results aren't skewed by focus problems.

Sean Nelson · 11-09-2008, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by RaduA

In the end it will probably take a trully outstanding lens for an even pattern considering this claim about the AA filter and the sensor behaviour.

Look no further than the FA 31mm review to see that his K10D tests do show excellent border performance if the lens can deliver it.

Wheatfield · 11-09-2008, 11:03 AM

FWIW, I know several photographers who use the 16-50, and once a good sample is aquired, they are happy with the pictures.
The pre-release sample that I used for a few days was very good.
I've pretty much concluded that the photozone/photodo guys aren't putting very useful information out there. I've seen too many questionable test results from lenses that I know are excellent picture takers.

Peter Zack · 11-09-2008, 11:05 AM

I find this disappointing. I mean really both versions of the 18-55 are very good and there are almost no reports of issues and considering the cost you could say these lenses are excellent value for the $. The DA16-45mm is also a very good lens and again no real serious issues.

The DA* 16-50mm is 7 times the cost of the kit lens and more than double the DA16-45mm. It does not outperform the 16-45mm by much and QC is suspect. I really want to buy one of these but have already wasted $50 in return shipping on bad ones and my nearest store is a $100 drive away and they are aware of the issues and will only special order it.

No lens is perfect but there needs to be a version II released with all this corrected. I don't complain about Pentax that much but it's time for a replacement. A DA* should never have these issues or performance rating.

View Poll Results: Is this DA*16-50mm good or bad?
Keep it -- it's good.	23	88.46%
Return it or send it in for repair.	3	11.54%
Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

11-09-2008, 06:39 AM	#999
Bart Pentaxian Join Date: May 2007 Location: WW community of Pentax users Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,646	On Photozones forum about the upgrade to K20D Forum Klaus answers to a question by Radu (any relation to RaduA perhaps?) AF accuracy is meaningless for the lab results. For obvious reasons Nikon will be next in the upgrade queue but even they will have to wait quite a while. I did it on the Canon side because the of the double number of pixels compared to the test camera. This may give you an idea about the pain level which may rectify an upgrade. ----- >You should really update to K20D IMO, then you'll find that one can make a correction for up to 20 lenses individually or global in a 699 Euro camera. > >BTW, I noticed no 35mm test like all the other zooms but I am not that much surprised. > >Regards, >Radu >

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11-08-2008, 07:03 PM	#991
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by frank I'm very surprised to see that they used K10D for the test. I've tried several copies of this lens on several K10D and K20D cameras, all the 1650 lenses I tested on all the K10D cameras have some focusing problem which cause less sharp results. But I haven't seen any focusing problem w/ the lens on several K20D cameras I've tried. I have to agree on the bad CA problem, although some users reported less CA w/ this lens on a K20D than it is on a K10D ... Klaus' tests are standardized on the K10D for Pentax mount. Steve

11-08-2008, 08:59 PM	#992
sewebster Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Vancouver, BC Photos: Gallery Posts: 544	Review didn't sound so bad to me either. If you haven't read it, make sure you refer to: Photozone Ratings

11-08-2008, 09:18 PM	#993
rfortson Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Houston TX Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,129	My 16-50 works much better on my K20D. CA on my K10D was bad on occasion, but I've never seen it on my K20D. I was disappointed when I bought it, but using it on the K20D has made me much happier. BTW, the K20D isn't immune to PF. I've seen it just as bad on my K20D using the DA*200, so it's a combination of the two.

11-09-2008, 01:54 AM	#994
frank Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Singapore Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,202	Originally posted by stevebrot Klaus' tests are standardized on the K10D for Pentax mount. Steve By my experience, K10D does have some focusing problem w/ some lenses, especially wide angle lenses. K20D has come out over 8 months now, why not use it as a standardized camera for all new tests?

11-09-2008, 02:29 AM	#995
Bart Pentaxian Join Date: May 2007 Location: WW community of Pentax users Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,646	Originally posted by frank ... why not use it as a standardized camera for all new tests? Because he would have to redo all the previous tests as well in order to be able to compare the lenses.

11-09-2008, 02:38 AM	#996
benjikan Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Paris, France Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,308	Originally posted by frank I'm very surprised to see that they used K10D for the test. I've tried several copies of this lens on several K10D and K20D cameras, all the 1650 lenses I tested on all the K10D cameras have some focusing problem which cause less sharp results. But I haven't seen any focusing problem w/ the lens on several K20D cameras I've tried. I have to agree on the bad CA problem, although some users reported less CA w/ this lens on a K20D than it is on a K10D ... I totally agree. The differences are quite radical. Ben

11-09-2008, 03:43 AM	#997
creampuff Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Singapore Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,953	The K10D's focusing issues are well known. To continue using the K10D as the test benchmark is pretty absurd and doesn't lend much credence to the tests. The price of a K20D has come down quite a bit. There's no reason why it shouldn't be used as the test camera.

11-09-2008, 06:11 AM	#998
dylansalt Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Durban, South Africa Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,052	My reasoning is this; A DA* lens should be near perfect - period - on any Pentax dslr - especially in this day and age. Its because of all these type of reviews that I continue shooting with the kit zoom - which has literally zero issues I think the better zoom lens in the wide arena is the 12-24 IMHO and then partnered to a 50-135 and possibly throwing in one of the prime ltds to cover in between 24-50. d

11-09-2008, 07:56 AM	#1000
audiobomber Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Sudbury, Ontario Photos: Albums Posts: 6,806	Does the fact that the 16-50 uses dual drive slow down the auto-focus at all? IOW, if it was SDM-only would focus be any faster? I don't think anyone should complain about the price/performance of the 16-50mm. It's a little better than the 16-45mm in most respects, and it shows in the higher sale price.

11-09-2008, 08:48 AM	#1001
RaduA Guest	Originally posted by Bart Forum Klaus answers to a question by Radu (any relation to RaduA perhaps?) AF accuracy is meaningless for the lab results. For obvious reasons Nikon will be next in the upgrade queue but even they will have to wait quite a while. I did it on the Canon side because the of the double number of pixels compared to the test camera. This may give you an idea about the pain level which may rectify an upgrade. ----- >You should really update to K20D IMO, then you'll find that one can make a correction for up to 20 lenses individually or global in a 699 Euro camera. > >BTW, I noticed no 35mm test like all the other zooms but I am not that much surprised. > >Regards, >Radu > Yep, that was me and my remark was about what he said previously: "So you need one camera per lens then. Otherwise a correction will result in focus errors with your other lenses." I also exchanged some messages on dpreview's forum and from what I understood the K10D sensor has a strong AA filter that penalises border resolution compared to the center. More about this here: Re: conclusion: Pentax badly needs a 16-50 : Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review and in the follow ups. In the end I suggested that he'll do ONE test for the SAME lens with both K10D and a borrowed K20D for us to put things in better perspective considering the sensor behaviour (resolution, patterns of resolution - center, border, extreme border, CA and DR in test pictures). My request was denied. If Klaus is correct then the Tamron lens will behave pretty much in the same pattern as the DA* on the K10D sensor (higher center resolution, lower on borders). In the end it will probably take a trully outstanding lens for an even pattern considering this claim about the AA filter and the sensor behaviour. Anyway until we see some numbers about that I consider the border numbers for the DA* bad only compared to the very excelent center ones. Besides I don't know what "border and extreme border" means in area reported to the whole picture anyway maybe someone knows more!? Regards, Radu

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11-09-2008, 10:34 AM	#1002
Sean Nelson Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 353	Originally posted by creampuff The K10D's focusing issues are well known. To continue using the K10D as the test benchmark is pretty absurd and doesn't lend much credence to the tests. Autofocusing issues on the K10D have nothing to do with these tests. Klaus uses manual focus with bracketing to make sure that the results aren't skewed by focus problems.

11-09-2008, 10:37 AM	#1003
Sean Nelson Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 353	Originally posted by RaduA In the end it will probably take a trully outstanding lens for an even pattern considering this claim about the AA filter and the sensor behaviour. Look no further than the FA 31mm review to see that his K10D tests do show excellent border performance if the lens can deliver it.

11-09-2008, 11:03 AM	#1004
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 15,975	FWIW, I know several photographers who use the 16-50, and once a good sample is aquired, they are happy with the pictures. The pre-release sample that I used for a few days was very good. I've pretty much concluded that the photozone/photodo guys aren't putting very useful information out there. I've seen too many questionable test results from lenses that I know are excellent picture takers.

11-09-2008, 11:05 AM	#1005
Peter Zack Pentaxian Moderator Emeritus Join Date: May 2007 Location: Edmonton Alberta, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 10,643	I find this disappointing. I mean really both versions of the 18-55 are very good and there are almost no reports of issues and considering the cost you could say these lenses are excellent value for the $. The DA16-45mm is also a very good lens and again no real serious issues. The DA* 16-50mm is 7 times the cost of the kit lens and more than double the DA16-45mm. It does not outperform the 16-45mm by much and QC is suspect. I really want to buy one of these but have already wasted $50 in return shipping on bad ones and my nearest store is a $100 drive away and they are aware of the issues and will only special order it. No lens is perfect but there needs to be a version II released with all this corrected. I don't complain about Pentax that much but it's time for a replacement. A DA* should never have these issues or performance rating.