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02-05-2009, 02:23 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by blende8 Quote
My guess with those skewed targets is that the AF sensor base is quite large and if not all points on the target are at the same distance it is impossible to say to which point the AF system actually focussed.
You might be right, but if there is only one transition then the AF system should only have that spot to focus on. The other (single colour areas) are not suitable for the AF sensor to focus on.

I don't like the widely used focus chart by Tim Jackson because it uses a bar as a focus target and you never know which part of the bar was chosen to set the focus. A single black to white transition would be better, AFAIK.


QuoteOriginally posted by blende8 Quote
Ideally, of course, both results should coincide, but from my experience optimizing on the ruler is not very exact.
Which could either result from the fact that it is difficult to gauge whether the zero is in the middle of the in-focus-area and/or the fact that the field curvature of a lens is not entirely flat in the region containing the target and the ruler. The latter may be a concern for focus charts which have the rulers far away from the target.

02-05-2009, 06:36 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by rfortson Quote
Hi Larry (and welcome to the fold from a native Atlantan)!

I've been wondering about this Lens Align tool, so your experiences are interesting. Thanks for posting this.

Was there any drawback you could see about using the "lite" version versus the "full" version? The only difference I could see is that my wallet would be "lighter" if I bought the "full" version.
Hi there Russ!Glad to have a Atlantan say hello.
As far as the difference in the Pro version vs the Lite in usage and acuracy there should be none if sited to the test target properly as they use the same target and rule.I would say go for the Lite if you don't have deep pockets and save the change for LBA!
02-05-2009, 07:03 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by blende8 Quote
I'm sorry, but this is not correct.
The manual says:
"If an adjustment value has been saved using Apply One and you press
the OK button with [Apply All] selected in Step 6, the Apply All value is
used instead of the Apply One value."


You can only use one or the other. Apply All overrides.
I don't agree with your interpretation of that memo at all. My reading of that was that if a you enter that menu, and leave the default [Apply All] selected (or manually select it), and it has a value, and you hit okay, you will unintentionally overwrite your [Apply One] setting for that lens.

In any event, I also have a Lens Align Lite, and will try to do the actual testing necessary to clarify the point.
02-06-2009, 12:37 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by winds350 Quote
I don't agree with your interpretation of that memo at all. My reading of that was that if a you enter that menu, and leave the default [Apply All] selected (or manually select it), and it has a value, and you hit okay, you will unintentionally overwrite your [Apply One] setting for that lens.

In any event, I also have a Lens Align Lite, and will try to do the actual testing necessary to clarify the point.
Ah,a fellow Lite man,welcome to the discussion.I like you have an different interpretation.I have reread the manual several times and "YES" both "ALL" and "ONE"work together and both settings have their independent setting values shown as you adjust them,so they do add and work together as I see it working these settings.Example: if you set ALL to -2 and set ONE to +2 you are effectively back to zero,check yourself as I have.Also I found while I was testing you can turn ON and OFF the AF adjustment see the default camera settings as to the ones you set this will aid you as you test or atleast it did me.
I just went thru another battery of tests this evening on one lens(FA50 1.4) as after several "Real world"shots today and I was unhappy.This is time consuming stuff but I am determined.
I found as I went from 16 inches to 3 feet to 4 foot to 6 foot to 8 feet shooting 3 shots per on and off the AF adjust,moving the focus to infinity each time and allowing the camera to find focus each time(as the LA tutorials suggested) and documenting each shot that at any setting the lens will go from BF to FF with any settings and no matter how you have it so some compromise will have to be made but where?.
Up close (16")it exhibited a tendency to slightly FF with narrow DOF,back it up to 3' and it goes to about perfect ,again at 4' and at 6' it starts to FF but usable and at 8' it DOF has increased considerably to the front so it is FF and this is just one lens and I have about 3 hours in this test there has to be a "sweet spot" somewhere.I am tired now and will think it thru tomorrow....

Please inform us of your test Winds as us "Lite "guys need to work together!

02-06-2009, 12:56 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by winds350 Quote
I don't agree with your interpretation of that memo at all. My reading of that was that if a you enter that menu, and leave the default [Apply All] selected (or manually select it), and it has a value, and you hit okay, you will unintentionally overwrite your [Apply One] setting for that lens.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean, but I agree with what you write.

You can have in both sliders a value but then only the first is used and not a combination of them.
02-06-2009, 03:54 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by blende8 Quote
0You can have in both sliders a value but then only the first is used and not a combination of them.
It doesn't say that. Anywhere in the manual. You are inferring it, and I think incorrectly. The manual, annoyingly enough, makes absolutely no statement about what the effect on operation is if you have a value in [Apply All], highlight [Apply one] and hit ok.

I really wish Pentax would actually make a statement about this. It's been asked enough times. It looks from empirical testing that the numbers are cumulative, according to Motorman. Over the weekend, I'm going to try to verify that, and I'll post what I come up with.
02-06-2009, 10:48 AM   #22
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It's not cumulative.
It says so in the manual and my tests say so, too.
02-06-2009, 11:37 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by winds350 Quote
It doesn't say that. Anywhere in the manual. You are inferring it, and I think incorrectly. The manual, annoyingly enough, makes absolutely no statement about what the effect on operation is if you have a value in [Apply All], highlight [Apply one] and hit ok.

I really wish Pentax would actually make a statement about this. It's been asked enough times. It looks from empirical testing that the numbers are cumulative, according to Motorman. Over the weekend, I'm going to try to verify that, and I'll post what I come up with.
If you do a search, you will see that this has been discussed when the K20D first came out, and it was confirmed that you can have either one or the other value selected, but not both, cumulatively.

Directly from the Pentax manual PDF, on page 104 (page 106 in the PDF) in the tinted memo box at the bottom:


• If an adjustment value has been saved using Apply One and you press the OK button with [Apply All] selected in Step 6, the Apply All value is used instead of the Apply One value.

So you need to make sure which value you want to use, the Apply One or the Apply All, and this needs to be highlighted when you press the OK button to exit as this value will be used, not the other one, and that means not both.

As the manual reads instead of, not in addition to, or in combination with.......

Hope this helps save some time and grief

02-06-2009, 10:37 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by blende8 Quote
It's not cumulative.
It says so in the manual and my tests say so, too.
Cool. Unfortunately for me...

QuoteOriginally posted by augustmoon Quote
If you do a search, you will see that this has been discussed when the K20D first came out, and it was confirmed that you can have either one or the other value selected, but not both, cumulatively.
Yup, I did a number of web searches, because the wording in that memo was so poor and ambiguous (and inaccurate). Sadly I found three different definitive answers:

a) If you have a value set for [Apply all] that value will be used for all lenses, whether or not you have a separate value stored for that lens.

b) If you have a value set for [Apply all] that value will be used for all lenses except those that have a separate value stored. Lens with stored values will use their stored value.

c) If you have a value set for [Apply all] that value will be used for all lenses and lenses with a stored value will add their stored value to the [Apply all] value.

And for each of those mutually exclusive answers, there were people who claimed to have run tests that confirmed it. So at this point, I going to try to run my own tests. I try to publish the test methodology and the actual shots, so at least the next person searching can have a little more detail.

QuoteOriginally posted by augustmoon Quote
Directly from the Pentax manual PDF, on page 104 (page 106 in the PDF) in the tinted memo box at the bottom:


• If an adjustment value has been saved using Apply One and you press the OK button with [Apply All] selected in Step 6, the Apply All value is used instead of the Apply One value.

So you need to make sure which value you want to use, the Apply One or the Apply All, and this needs to be highlighted when you press the OK button to exit as this value will be used, not the other one, and that means not both.
I can see how you could interpret it that way, but I think it is very unlikely. That would leave you with no indication of which number was being used. You would have to try to remember what you had highlighted last for that lens, even if it was months ago. Your first hint that it was using [Apply all] would be a bunch of out of focus shots if you ever changed the [Apply all] value. Could be, but I think the odds are low. And that's my problem with that section of the manual. How it is worded, and how the menus actually work, don't really combine to anything that makes sense. It looks like a tech writers attempt to reword something, and as such I find myself not trusting any of it.

Edit: It looks like the firmware does tell you what is in use in that when you enter the AF menu, it highlights [Apply all] or [Apply one] based on what you selected the last time you saved for that lens. So you can tell, although there is one oddity. [Apply all] may be highlighted, but have a value of zero. If it really is what was selected when you hit save for that lens, and a that time [Apply all] had a value, and subsequently, with another lens mounted, you set the [Apply all] to zero, how does the first lens behave?

QuoteOriginally posted by augustmoon Quote
As the manual reads instead of, not in addition to, or in combination with.......

Hope this helps save some time and grief
The Lens Align unit makes the testing go pretty quickly, especially since I'll only really need to run one lens for most of the tests, and then a second just on a subset for verification. I figure I'll use my 50-135 set to 50 for the main runs, then my 16-45 set to 45 for the second lens, that way I probably won't even have to reposition the Lens Align. Just for characterizing the firmware behavior, that will be fine. I'll run through more focal lengths when I actually try to calibrate the lenses.

Last edited by winds350; 02-06-2009 at 10:56 PM.
02-07-2009, 07:16 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by winds350 Quote
Cool. Unfortunately for me...



Yup, I did a number of web searches, because the wording in that memo was so poor and ambiguous (and inaccurate). Sadly I found three different definitive answers:

a) If you have a value set for [Apply all] that value will be used for all lenses, whether or not you have a separate value stored for that lens.

b) If you have a value set for [Apply all] that value will be used for all lenses except those that have a separate value stored. Lens with stored values will use their stored value.

c) If you have a value set for [Apply all] that value will be used for all lenses and lenses with a stored value will add their stored value to the [Apply all] value.

And for each of those mutually exclusive answers, there were people who claimed to have run tests that confirmed it. So at this point, I going to try to run my own tests. I try to publish the test methodology and the actual shots, so at least the next person searching can have a little more detail.
Some of those threads you are referring to, some people weren't paying attention to whether they had the apply-all or apply-one highlighted when they went back and hit ok, as this little point seems to be the most understood of the process.


Well, if I had more time, I'd find the threads for you on this forum and dpreview where folks have already tried all this. There were several people who had lenses that with -10 or +10 couldn't get their lenses in focus and tried to add on top of that an "apply all" amount to try to get more movement, but weren't able to. Including the person on dpreview who received an email back from pentax servicing as well.

I was just trying to save you some time.


QuoteOriginally posted by winds350 Quote
I can see how you could interpret it that way, but I think it is very unlikely.
And to be perfectly honest, I wasn't interpreting the manual, I was reading it very very carefully.

best wishes, good luck with your tests.

by the way this lens align product is the best one of these I've used so far! Especially the version that the second target behind it to ensure that the camera lens is perfectly parallel and perpendicular to the chart.
02-07-2009, 10:40 AM   #26
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Just got a minute and should have more time later but want to give a little update.I made two calls to Pentax and spoke to a couple of people in tech support on this matter.The calls were directed ti North Carolina for First Level support.I got a fellow named "Randy" and explained my problem as my questions gave a level of confusion and put me on hold to speak with someone "further up the line in support" and came back saying" that they would add together" and I asked if this would be an "official answer" and he replied "yes". As I went through the day I thought that it would be nice to have a copy of the K20D" service bulletin on the adjustment procedure as I am sure that it would be a little more informative on this process.So I made call two,spoke with(Mechelle?),asked my questions and she went and past me up to "Level 2" support in Colorado as my questions may be more technical in nature for a good response from her.At level 2 I spoke at length with "Mark Davis",nice guy,and he said he was familiar and even started or explained in detail of the adjustment process on dpreview like augustmoon has said earlier and directed me to search there for his post.I did the search and only found a small post with his name and was unsuccessful in locating that thread.If someone finds it please link me to it. I also asked for a copy of the service bulletin but informed me it was not in a format that could be released to the public or something similar,hmmm.I then asked then asked if I could purchase the Technical Manual for the K20D,the reply was no and it was not available to the public.Having come from a very technical background mechanically I find this highly unusual!Why not?If I want to work on my car,boat or motorcycle i could always get a manual more than just an operation manual.Heck, look at my screen name "Motorman",I got that from building racing engines and thats what they called me and it stuck,not that it matters.But the point I want to make is I am still having difficulty in gaining access to the "real"answer as it is confusing.

If someone here has knows someone of has access to the tech manual please make this available to us,me or to the forum!!!!

On the bright side Mark Davis asked me for my email address and would sending me more info on this.When?..Maybe next week,I did ask him if he would direct my concerns to the service department for a better explanation on this topic.

I do believe this Mark Davis may be the same person as the one augustmoon referred to in his reply stating this..augustmoon wrote"Including the person on dpreview who received an email back from pentax servicing as well"

I did find Mark Davis's name with a response on dpreview on this similar topic.

I put a link to the PDF for the K20D here to help aid us in the discussion...it is page 108 in the PDF

http://www.pentaximaging.com/files/scms_docs//K20D_Manual.pdf
02-08-2009, 04:49 AM   #27
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After careful and repeated testing I must conclude, that the values do not add up!

Which value is taken, depends on which one has been saved last with OK.

Example:
You have set APPLY ALL to Zero and APPLY ONE to -10.

Now, if you select APPLY ALL and OK it, Zero is taken.
If you select APPLY ONE and OK it, -10 will be taken.

My earlier message at this place was in error.
I mixed up my images.


Last edited by blende8; 02-08-2009 at 09:19 AM.
02-10-2009, 07:51 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by rfortson Quote
I've been wondering about this Lens Align tool, so your experiences are interesting. Thanks for posting this.

Was there any drawback you could see about using the "lite" version versus the "full" version? The only difference I could see is that my wallet would be "lighter" if I bought the "full" version.
Hi Russ, I've been wondering about that too. From my understanding the Pro version is easier to use. In the lite version you have to use a mirror to align the camera. It should work well but I think it will be more difficult when you are further away from the target. On the other hand the Pro version uses a red dot that makes the alignment process much easier and accurate.

What would be really great is an autocalibration feature on the next Pentax camera. In conjunction with contrast AF from Liveview it would be quite possible for the camera to perform this operation.
02-10-2009, 01:53 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
On the other hand the Pro version uses a red dot that makes the alignment process much easier and accurate.
I read the inventor state that the mirror method of the LITE version is the most accurate way for alignment. The other, additional one, of the PRO version, is more convenient.

Here is a quote from the LensAlign website
QuoteQuote:
The main differences between PRO and LITE is that PRO is built "stronger" to accept the LRK, PRO has the great 2 sighting systems in addition to the mirror sighting system of LITE. They both achieve the same results, in terms of compatibility, accuracy and repeatability. And LITE saves you a bunch of bucks.
I like the way "stronger" is put in quotation marks in the above quote.

QuoteQuote:
Long Ruler Kit (LRK) Option (PRO only) is being finalized. I would expect it to be available in early Feb. This is an optional extra cost item, and will be useful to people with lenses of 300mm and longer.
The Lite version comes folded which saves shipping costs and makes it easier to move along with your other equipment, if you have a need for that.
02-10-2009, 07:41 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I read the inventor state that the mirror method of the LITE version is the most accurate way for alignment. The other, additional one, of the PRO version, is more convenient.
Really? That's interesting. I think I'll buy one but I'm a bit under the impression that it's a v1.0 tool.
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