Originally posted by Blue Your definition of reach is hilarious because you turn around and describe FOV.
Right - because my point is, these are one and the same. It is impossible to alter one without a corresponding change in the other. There is no way to create a lens that provides more "reach" than another on a given camera except by having it create a narrower FOV. And vice versa. Similarly, it is impossible to create a camera has a cropped sensor compared to another - and thus a narrower FOV - without also increasing the "magnification" of any lens attached, assuming you print your pictures at the same size.
Now, it is true the size of the image *on the sensor* won't change with "crop factor". Thus, in this sense, we could possible say that magnification hasn't changed. This will become relevant on the same way someone invents a device that allows us to actually see that image. But in the world as it exists today, the only way to see an image captured by a sensor is to display it on a screen or print it. And assuming one does so at the same size, you get the same magnification aka "reach". There is simply no *real world* sense in which there is an difference whatsoever between FOV and "reach".
Looked at another way - or, rather to restate what I wrote before - if you take a picture on a 35mm film (or "FF" digital) camera with a 450mm lens and I take one of the same scene on an APS-C digital camera with a 300mm lens, and we both make prints of our images, no one on this earth could tell the difference based on "reach" - it will be identical.
Quote: If you were to take a picture with a 500mm lens on film and with a K200d, and were to crop the negative during scanning it, you would get a similar print.
Indeed, that is exactly how the crop factor works. It's also *exactly* what happens if you shot with a 750mm lens on the film camera. By the time you make the print, there will be nothing whatsoever about it that would possibly allow anyone to tell whether it came from a 750mm lens on film or a 500mm lens on the K200D.
Quote: The point being, regardless of which camera a 500mm lens is on, it is still a 500mm lens.
No doubt there - I do realize that "focal length" has a precise definition and that this does not change. But when FOV changes, so does reach when dealing with the real world of prints and images made visible on screen.
Quote: The magnification will be 10x on a SuperProgram or K20d.
10X? Ten times what? The image will be tiny on the negative itself or on the sensor - clearly not 10 times actual life size. And you can print the image at whatever size you want. It could be printed on a postage stamp and be a small fraction of life size, or be printed on a billboard and be many times larger than life. Maybe you meant ten times larger than a simlarly-presented image made with a 50mm lens? Perhaps - I'm not sure how the math works out there. But there is nothing particularly special about 50mm in this context. And in an event, given that the printed or otherwise-presented image from the 50mm lens will also have more "reach" on than the K20D than on the Super Program, this argument doesn't actually demonstrate anything.
Quote: Also, it would be good to leave binoculars and telescopes out of this because of the eye-piece role in magnification etc.
Indeed, but it was really the only sense in which I could see there being any real world difference between 450mm on film and 300mm on APS-C.