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04-17-2009, 10:30 AM   #1
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any idea why Tokina did not make a 50-135mm for Pentax mount?

really would like to know how much it would cost without the SDM and Weather sealing as i am guessing optically should be the same.

when the DA* 50-135mm joint pentax-tokina lens came out, did anyone ask why canon and nikon got the no frills version from tokina but none for pentax?

oddly enough, not much publicity about this lens in other camps either.

04-17-2009, 10:43 AM   #2
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Optically, it may be the same formula, but the Tokina doesn't have Pentax coatings. I expect there is a licencing limitation on Tokina putting K-Mounts on lenses that pentax had a hand in developing.
04-17-2009, 11:34 AM   #3
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It would be like Acura offering their flagship RL without all wheel drive and selling it as a Honda...they'd never do it. The separation between an Acura and Honda/Infiniti and Nissan/Lexus and Toyota must be far apart to keep the brands unique though similar.

Pentax would not be one to offer a "base" model IMO...like a 300/4 that is not a *...just wouldn't happen...

Conversely, the Tokina 10-17 is well-regarded among the car enthusiasts and Canon users I know...
04-17-2009, 12:33 PM   #4
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I would assume that neither Tokina nor Pentax would particularly want to be in competition selling essentially the same lens, and both probably insisted on language in the contract between them to prevent this.

04-17-2009, 02:18 PM   #5
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.

The Tokina 50-135 is not really very widely used in Nikon-land, really - in that range, the Sigma 50-150 HSM 2.8 is just more visible, for whatever reason. Those Nikonians that do get somehow end up with the Tokina seem to be blown away by it - as you can imagine.

Kinda the same way with the Tokina 12-24 f/4, although that one is more widely used, even though Nikon offers it's own 12-24 f/4.


.
04-17-2009, 03:15 PM   #6
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Pentax/Hoya would be very stupid if they let Tokina compete with them with a budget version of their own patent. And before anyone repeat the stupid claim that Pentax did not design this lens, here is the patent: esp@cenet — Original document
You can compare from Diminitrovs pages that it is indeed the DA*50-135/2.8 that is described in that patent: http://www.bdimitrov.de/kmp/lenses/zooms/_optics/50-135f2.8.gif

Pentax name on the Patent, not Tokina. Probably Tokina payed Pentax for the permission to use the lens design, but they do it with their own coating, and without weather sealing and SDM, and of course, in that contract Pentax must have specified that Tokina were not allowed to build the lens with K mount. Don't know if Tokina payed once for the design or if Pentax gets a share of each lens Tokina sell, or both. Hope they sold it expensively. It's a nice lens.

As far as I understand, they have the same agreement for the DA*16-50, DA10-17 fisheye and DFA 100 macro, which Pentax designed. The oposit applies for the DA12-24, which Tokina designed, but Pentax builds its own version.

Another sort of colaboration is when Pentax let Tamron build the 18-250 but put the Pentax logo on it.

This sort of colaboration is as old as lens production. Many lens solutions have completely legally appeared with many different labels. Pentax had for example a verions of the plastic fantastic 100mm f3.5 macro lens that appears in numerous names including Soligor, Phoenix etc. Severall of Ricohs K mount lenses were rebadged Pentax lenses. Vivitar never built any lenses of their own. And before Pentax even built own cameras they built lenses for Konica and Nikon (or their ancestor companies).

You can compare with the car industry were cars of different models and labels use the same engines or frame (not sure if it is the right English name). As a consumer you might not like it, but it is cost efficient, and you would in the end pay more if they did not share costs for development.

You know, if you absolutely want the Tokina version, you can buy it in Nikon mount and try if it fits. Some Nikon lenses do, mostly older ones, but also some new. But I wouldn't recommend it
04-17-2009, 08:01 PM   #7
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Tokina is also consumer of HOYA glass. 100% of glass in Tokina lenses are from HOYA.
04-19-2009, 11:33 PM   #8
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Funniest. Thread. Title. Ever.

I'm not certain that the Tokina and Pentax versions didn't use the same coatings. Because, funnily enough, both have that "water- and dust-repellant" fluoride coating on the front element. The similarities go beyond the aperture and focal range.

And who designed the DA* 35?

What I find most compelling is not the legalities or labels, but why Pentax can't design or make a better lens.

It's worth noting that these lenses came out just after, I think, Hoya bought Pentax. 'Spose Hoya wanted Pentax to have some good glass fast, or though that Pentax couldn't do it on its own.

04-20-2009, 01:55 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Douglas_of_Sweden Quote
Severall of Ricohs K mount lenses were rebadged Pentax lenses.
Interesting. Do you have details on which specific lenses?
04-20-2009, 12:11 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
What I find most compelling is not the legalities or labels, but why Pentax can't design or make a better lens.
Better than what? Are you saying you don't think the DA*50-135 or DA35 Macro are good enough? Most reviewers would disagree with that assessment.
04-20-2009, 12:48 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by Erik Quote
Interesting. Do you have details on which specific lenses?
I have a Ricoh XR Rikenon 28mm f3.5 which is rebranded M28/3.5.

I've also seen several incarnations of the Pentax SMC-A 70-210/4 (which I used to own) in the form of CPC Phase II 70-200 (i have this one) and Ricoh P 70-210/3.9 (and seen this one a few times).

Ricoh has also made use of Vivitar in times past. The set of K mount "XR rikenon" extension tubes I have are just like the Vivitar branded ones.

Just a while back, a forum user sold a Ricoh 105/2.8 Marco in the marketplace which is simply the rebranded Kiron 105 macro.

I recently eyed a Ricoh 55/1.2 on ebay which bore such an uncanny resemblance to the Cosina 55/1.2 that I'm willing to bet they are one in the same. Like down to the font, it was all the same.

There's probably alot more but that's what I can attest for from personal experience.
04-20-2009, 01:14 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by Douglas_of_Sweden Quote
Pentax/Hoya would be very stupid if they let Tokina compete with them with a budget version of their own patent. And before anyone repeat the stupid claim that Pentax did not design this lens, here is the patent: esp@cenet — Original document

Interesting findings on the patents... And I am not a optics guy or patent specialist... but is the reason why the patent seems generic is to cover any focal lengths they may want to produce in the future?

For instance, on the 50-135, the patent does not seem to mention the FL, is that so they could easily do a 100-270mm lens using the same formula and not have to worry about applying to another patent?

Or even more important, so that no one else copy the formula and change the focal lengths?


On the other note, I checked for "Pentax Fisheye" and got a result. So is that the 10-17 fisheye lens? someone was arguing that this fisheye zoom was a Tokina glass and not pentax... and the patent seems to be Pentax...
04-21-2009, 07:08 AM   #13
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Pentax and Hoya talks were first noted in Dec. '06. 50-135 and 16-50 were announced in Feb. '07. Merger was scrapped in Apr. '07, and then approved in May '07. Somewhere around that time the lenses were released, but Hoya didn't actually take over for almost another year.
01-11-2010, 11:41 AM   #14
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I know this is an old thread, but I thought I'd add some input from my engineering classes. The art of designing a patent is to make it detailed enough to hold up in court, but vague enough to make it useless to anyone trying to steal your work directly.

Also, chemical processes aren't mentioned in patents typically, as companies prefer to protect them via trade secret laws. (The patent law workarounds are too easy for chemicals)
01-11-2010, 11:46 AM   #15
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notice not a lot of comment on Sigma....because they reverse engineer lenses?
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