FA 31mm Limited assembled in Vietnam - bad QC or bad luck.

tim71 · 07-04-2009, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

At least the 43 and the 77 came with black bags awhile after introduction...

My 31 also has a black bag...

GeneV · 07-04-2009, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by nostatic

Yes, I just don't agree. Every country manufactures both good and bad products. I've seen excellent workmanship come out of Vietnam and crap come out of Japan. I've seen some especially bad workmanship on US-made products. There is no way I would make a blanket statement about a certain country having poor QC on manufactured goods. It just isn't that cut and dried.

I would agree as well. I don't care as much about it being made in Vietnam as I do that there may be QC issues. It seems to me that for the hefty price of this lens, someone, in some country, could spend a few minutes and put it through its paces before it goes in a box and is sold for around $1,000!

séamuis · 07-05-2009, 01:31 PM

Quote:

I do accept the fact the there are badly manufactured or defective goods coming from well-known and high standard countries, but the ratio are minimal.

you have any evidence to back that statement up? and your test is a bit bogus. were these photos handheld? at 1.8, the slightest movement by you can cause a mis-focus that might not be viewable in the VF. wide open tests are so often done so poorly its just ridiculous to blame the equipment. you just don't know for sure that it is the lens. im not buying it unless you can do a proper test.

I get the feeling you pre-judged this lens right out of the box, simply because it wasn't 'made in Japan'. guess what? a hand assembled lens is a hand assembled lens. whether they are Vietnamese hands, Japanese hands, Chinese hands, Philippine hands or American hands. you think the Vietnamese workers are any less trained or skilled than the Japnese assemblers? certainly paid less, but there is no evidence to say that the Japanese worker will produce a better lens.

Pentaxor · 07-05-2009, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by séamuis

you have any evidence to back that statement up? and your test is a bit bogus. were these photos handheld? at 1.8, the slightest movement by you can cause a mis-focus that might not be viewable in the VF. wide open tests are so often done so poorly its just ridiculous to blame the equipment. you just don't know for sure that it is the lens. im not buying it unless you can do a proper test.

I get the feeling you pre-judged this lens right out of the box, simply because it wasn't 'made in Japan'. guess what? a hand assembled lens is a hand assembled lens. whether they are Vietnamese hands, Japanese hands, Chinese hands, Philippine hands or American hands. you think the Vietnamese workers are any less trained or skilled than the Japnese assemblers? certainly paid less, but there is no evidence to say that the Japanese worker will produce a better lens.

I dont need to convince you. you have your own conviction and I have mine. yes I quite raise a brow whenever something from vietnam whether lens or any other product comes in. your skeptic about my facts, so do I against your belief. call it bogus but I'm not changing my thinking about it unless I see some improvement. I don't simply jump or prejudge a particular product where it came from unless I saw some faults myself. honestly speaking, in majority, if not all , a Japanese worker takes pride and dedication in his work compared to any other worker. that's a known fact unless you are unaware of it. and it's been like that as long as you could even remember. here is an argument for you as well, do you have proof that vietnamese assemblers are better or have equal assembling capability comapred to their hapanese counterparts? if you could cite any improvement or advantage of vietnamese made lenses, that might lessen my skepticism.

séamuis · 07-05-2009, 04:16 PM

Quote:

yes I quite raise a brow whenever something from vietnam whether lens or any other product comes in

Quote:

I don't simply jump or prejudge a particular product where it came from unless I saw some faults myself.

since you have thus far failed to prove it was the lens, you contradict yourself sir.

Quote:

honestly speaking, in majority, if not all , a Japanese worker takes pride and dedication in his work compared to any other worker. that's a known fact unless you are unaware of it

a known fact? are you kidding? that is a broad opinion. no fact at all. and if it is, show me some evidence. seriously that is just ridiculous.

Quote:

do you have proof that vietnamese assemblers are better or have equal assembling capability comapred to their hapanese counterparts?

no I cant prove they are better or worse. IT IS HAND ASSEMBLED. BY HUMANS. my point was that you CANT prove one is better than the other simply because its a pair of Japanese hands or Vietnamese hands. but what I do know is that Pentax would not have different equipment or training for the hand assembly of their top range lenses regardless of country of origin.

its QC, and things happen. do you know why you never come across or hear about a defective Takumar? (other than one that may have been damaged in use) because every single lens was tested. every lens. at a cost that in part helped to drive down Asahi Optical's profits. modern QC doesn't allow for this, and thus bad lenses get out (of course the test did not prove that the lens was bad) they get out of Japan and every other country where lenses are made. we have had a few cases of the new K mount Carl Zeiss Z series of lenses (German hand assembled) having to be returned due to QC issues. most canon and nikon lenses and bodies are made in Japan, and guess what? all sorts of QC issues to be found.

Pentaxor · 07-05-2009, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by séamuis

no I cant prove they are better or worse.

there, you said it yourself. you can't even prove it yourself. now, who's contradicting who again? case closed.

séamuis · 07-05-2009, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by Pentaxor

there, you said it yourself. you can't even prove it yourself. now, who's contradicting who again? case closed.

how was that contradiction? I made it clear that there was no proof. I am not arguing one side or the other, simply tying to show that you cant either. while you are trying to say you can, by giving broad general opinions on the skills and abilities of entire nations and their workers based on no evidence, just "known facts"...you might want to reread my posts, very carefully. yours as well.

nulla · 07-05-2009, 04:38 PM

I agree along the lines of Seamuis in this case.

Pentax would not jeopardise their reputition or the quality of FA limiteds reputations if the exact standards of workmanship were not met.

It is not as though Pentax would have sent an instruction manual along to a batch of unskilled workers and say go ahead please.

Has there been any proof or examples given that the FA lenses from Vietnam are inferior in any way but for a stamp "Made in Japan" being missing?

Neil

deejjjaaaa · 07-05-2009, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by séamuis

most canon and nikon lenses and bodies are made in Japan, and guess what? all sorts of QC issues to be found.

Sigma too is assembled in Japan and has enough qc issues - however my dealings w/ their service center last year (about 17-70/2.8-4.5) showed at least one positive things - they will replace the lens itself fast and no questions asked for as many times as you want it...

séamuis · 07-05-2009, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by deejjjaaaa

Sigma too is assembled in Japan and has enough qc issues - however my dealings w/ their service center last year (about 17-70/2.8-4.5) showed at least one positive things - they will replace the lens itself fast and no questions asked for as many times as you want it...

because they know how many QC issues they have? I see that as a bad thing actually..... not positive at all.... more like necessary. glad I don't buy sigma.

nostatic · 07-05-2009, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by Pentaxor

honestly speaking, in majority, if not all , a Japanese worker takes pride and dedication in his work compared to any other worker. that's a known fact unless you are unaware of it..

old stereotypes die hard...

GeneV · 07-06-2009, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by nulla

I agree along the lines of Seamuis in this case.

Pentax would not jeopardise their reputition or the quality of FA limiteds reputations if the exact standards of workmanship were not met.

Neil

Don't you think that has happened already to some extent? I was surprised when I joined this forum that an entire (sticky) thread was dedicated listing serial numbers for good and bad copies of a DA* zoom. I just don't realize there being so much buzz about good and bad copies of lenses 20 years ago, but maybe we just didn't have the communication.

nostatic · 07-06-2009, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by GeneV

I just don't realize there being so much buzz about good and bad copies of lenses 20 years ago, but maybe we just didn't have the communication.

Bingo. We live in a 24/7 news cycle, and an online world where everyone is an expert and 3rd-hand rumor becomes "fact" by a combination of good-intentions, stupidity and spite.

Wow, sounds like my first marriage...

nulla · 07-06-2009, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by GeneV

Don't you think that has happened already to some extent? I was surprised when I joined this forum that an entire (sticky) thread was dedicated listing serial numbers for good and bad copies of a DA* zoom. I just don't realize there being so much buzz about good and bad copies of lenses 20 years ago, but maybe we just didn't have the communication.

The DA* zoom was a known problem that seems to have been resolved. I cannot recall known problems with any FA limiteds especailly since the report of them being assembled in Vietnam.

GeneV · 07-07-2009, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by nulla

The DA* zoom was a known problem that seems to have been resolved. I cannot recall known problems with any FA limiteds especailly since the report of them being assembled in Vietnam.

The serial number thread on the 16-50 still seems pretty active, with quite a few posts of bad lenses even within the last few weeks. If anything will hurt the Pentax brand, it is that lens rather than the limiteds.

07-05-2009, 04:16 PM	#35
séamuis Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Savannah, U.S./Baguio City, P.H. Posts: 5,979	Quote: yes I quite raise a brow whenever something from vietnam whether lens or any other product comes in Quote: I don't simply jump or prejudge a particular product where it came from unless I saw some faults myself. since you have thus far failed to prove it was the lens, you contradict yourself sir. Quote: honestly speaking, in majority, if not all , a Japanese worker takes pride and dedication in his work compared to any other worker. that's a known fact unless you are unaware of it a known fact? are you kidding? that is a broad opinion. no fact at all. and if it is, show me some evidence. seriously that is just ridiculous. Quote: do you have proof that vietnamese assemblers are better or have equal assembling capability comapred to their hapanese counterparts? no I cant prove they are better or worse. IT IS HAND ASSEMBLED. BY HUMANS. my point was that you CANT prove one is better than the other simply because its a pair of Japanese hands or Vietnamese hands. but what I do know is that Pentax would not have different equipment or training for the hand assembly of their top range lenses regardless of country of origin. its QC, and things happen. do you know why you never come across or hear about a defective Takumar? (other than one that may have been damaged in use) because every single lens was tested. every lens. at a cost that in part helped to drive down Asahi Optical's profits. modern QC doesn't allow for this, and thus bad lenses get out (of course the test did not prove that the lens was bad) they get out of Japan and every other country where lenses are made. we have had a few cases of the new K mount Carl Zeiss Z series of lenses (German hand assembled) having to be returned due to QC issues. most canon and nikon lenses and bodies are made in Japan, and guess what? all sorts of QC issues to be found. Last edited by séamuis; 07-05-2009 at 04:36 PM.

07-05-2009, 11:30 PM	#41
nostatic Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: socal Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,575	Originally posted by Pentaxor honestly speaking, in majority, if not all , a Japanese worker takes pride and dedication in his work compared to any other worker. that's a known fact unless you are unaware of it.. old stereotypes die hard... Last edited by nostatic; 07-06-2009 at 02:34 PM.

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07-04-2009, 09:29 AM	#31
tim71 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 38	Originally posted by Pål Jensen At least the 43 and the 77 came with black bags awhile after introduction... My 31 also has a black bag...

07-04-2009, 01:54 PM	#32
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by nostatic Yes, I just don't agree. Every country manufactures both good and bad products. I've seen excellent workmanship come out of Vietnam and crap come out of Japan. I've seen some especially bad workmanship on US-made products. There is no way I would make a blanket statement about a certain country having poor QC on manufactured goods. It just isn't that cut and dried. I would agree as well. I don't care as much about it being made in Vietnam as I do that there may be QC issues. It seems to me that for the hefty price of this lens, someone, in some country, could spend a few minutes and put it through its paces before it goes in a box and is sold for around $1,000!

07-05-2009, 01:31 PM	#33
séamuis Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Savannah, U.S./Baguio City, P.H. Posts: 5,979	Quote: I do accept the fact the there are badly manufactured or defective goods coming from well-known and high standard countries, but the ratio are minimal. you have any evidence to back that statement up? and your test is a bit bogus. were these photos handheld? at 1.8, the slightest movement by you can cause a mis-focus that might not be viewable in the VF. wide open tests are so often done so poorly its just ridiculous to blame the equipment. you just don't know for sure that it is the lens. im not buying it unless you can do a proper test. I get the feeling you pre-judged this lens right out of the box, simply because it wasn't 'made in Japan'. guess what? a hand assembled lens is a hand assembled lens. whether they are Vietnamese hands, Japanese hands, Chinese hands, Philippine hands or American hands. you think the Vietnamese workers are any less trained or skilled than the Japnese assemblers? certainly paid less, but there is no evidence to say that the Japanese worker will produce a better lens.

07-05-2009, 03:59 PM	#34
Pentaxor Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,513	Originally posted by séamuis you have any evidence to back that statement up? and your test is a bit bogus. were these photos handheld? at 1.8, the slightest movement by you can cause a mis-focus that might not be viewable in the VF. wide open tests are so often done so poorly its just ridiculous to blame the equipment. you just don't know for sure that it is the lens. im not buying it unless you can do a proper test. I get the feeling you pre-judged this lens right out of the box, simply because it wasn't 'made in Japan'. guess what? a hand assembled lens is a hand assembled lens. whether they are Vietnamese hands, Japanese hands, Chinese hands, Philippine hands or American hands. you think the Vietnamese workers are any less trained or skilled than the Japnese assemblers? certainly paid less, but there is no evidence to say that the Japanese worker will produce a better lens. I dont need to convince you. you have your own conviction and I have mine. yes I quite raise a brow whenever something from vietnam whether lens or any other product comes in. your skeptic about my facts, so do I against your belief. call it bogus but I'm not changing my thinking about it unless I see some improvement. I don't simply jump or prejudge a particular product where it came from unless I saw some faults myself. honestly speaking, in majority, if not all , a Japanese worker takes pride and dedication in his work compared to any other worker. that's a known fact unless you are unaware of it. and it's been like that as long as you could even remember. here is an argument for you as well, do you have proof that vietnamese assemblers are better or have equal assembling capability comapred to their hapanese counterparts? if you could cite any improvement or advantage of vietnamese made lenses, that might lessen my skepticism.

07-05-2009, 04:24 PM	#36
Pentaxor Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,513	Originally posted by séamuis no I cant prove they are better or worse. there, you said it yourself. you can't even prove it yourself. now, who's contradicting who again? case closed.

07-05-2009, 04:30 PM	#37
séamuis Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Savannah, U.S./Baguio City, P.H. Posts: 5,979	Originally posted by Pentaxor there, you said it yourself. you can't even prove it yourself. now, who's contradicting who again? case closed. how was that contradiction? I made it clear that there was no proof. I am not arguing one side or the other, simply tying to show that you cant either. while you are trying to say you can, by giving broad general opinions on the skills and abilities of entire nations and their workers based on no evidence, just "known facts"...you might want to reread my posts, very carefully. yours as well.

07-05-2009, 04:38 PM	#38
nulla Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 1,560	I agree along the lines of Seamuis in this case. Pentax would not jeopardise their reputition or the quality of FA limiteds reputations if the exact standards of workmanship were not met. It is not as though Pentax would have sent an instruction manual along to a batch of unskilled workers and say go ahead please. Has there been any proof or examples given that the FA lenses from Vietnam are inferior in any way but for a stamp "Made in Japan" being missing? Neil

07-05-2009, 05:33 PM	#39
deejjjaaaa Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: steel city / rust belt Posts: 2,043	Originally posted by séamuis most canon and nikon lenses and bodies are made in Japan, and guess what? all sorts of QC issues to be found. Sigma too is assembled in Japan and has enough qc issues - however my dealings w/ their service center last year (about 17-70/2.8-4.5) showed at least one positive things - they will replace the lens itself fast and no questions asked for as many times as you want it...

07-05-2009, 05:40 PM	#40
séamuis Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Savannah, U.S./Baguio City, P.H. Posts: 5,979	Originally posted by deejjjaaaa Sigma too is assembled in Japan and has enough qc issues - however my dealings w/ their service center last year (about 17-70/2.8-4.5) showed at least one positive things - they will replace the lens itself fast and no questions asked for as many times as you want it... because they know how many QC issues they have? I see that as a bad thing actually..... not positive at all.... more like necessary. glad I don't buy sigma.

07-06-2009, 02:04 PM	#42
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by nulla I agree along the lines of Seamuis in this case. Pentax would not jeopardise their reputition or the quality of FA limiteds reputations if the exact standards of workmanship were not met. Neil Don't you think that has happened already to some extent? I was surprised when I joined this forum that an entire (sticky) thread was dedicated listing serial numbers for good and bad copies of a DA* zoom. I just don't realize there being so much buzz about good and bad copies of lenses 20 years ago, but maybe we just didn't have the communication.

07-06-2009, 02:34 PM	#43
nostatic Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: socal Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,575	Originally posted by GeneV I just don't realize there being so much buzz about good and bad copies of lenses 20 years ago, but maybe we just didn't have the communication. Bingo. We live in a 24/7 news cycle, and an online world where everyone is an expert and 3rd-hand rumor becomes "fact" by a combination of good-intentions, stupidity and spite. Wow, sounds like my first marriage...

07-06-2009, 06:36 PM	#44
nulla Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 1,560	Originally posted by GeneV Don't you think that has happened already to some extent? I was surprised when I joined this forum that an entire (sticky) thread was dedicated listing serial numbers for good and bad copies of a DA* zoom. I just don't realize there being so much buzz about good and bad copies of lenses 20 years ago, but maybe we just didn't have the communication. The DA* zoom was a known problem that seems to have been resolved. I cannot recall known problems with any FA limiteds especailly since the report of them being assembled in Vietnam.

07-07-2009, 08:32 PM	#45
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by nulla The DA* zoom was a known problem that seems to have been resolved. I cannot recall known problems with any FA limiteds especailly since the report of them being assembled in Vietnam. The serial number thread on the 16-50 still seems pretty active, with quite a few posts of bad lenses even within the last few weeks. If anything will hurt the Pentax brand, it is that lens rather than the limiteds.