Manual lens troubles

séamuis · 09-05-2009, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by Recercare

So apart from the 50mm F1.7 it's only the M*300mm that really compares to the DA* or DA Ltds ?

from the M series specifically? well its the only one that received such special recognition. so speaking in terms of designation. yes. however I imagine a number of lenses from the M series could be considered based solely on IQ. one of those being the f2 85mm. however, I do not know enough about the M series to give an serious list.

unless you have both the time and the money to spare, I personally wouldn't invest too much of either in trying to find the M* it was as far as I know the first lens to get the * designation and is quite a rare and expensive beast. maybe not so much as expensive compared to the likes of the A* 85 1.4 (mostly due to cult collector status) but its still ranks up there and will be much harder to find (particularly one that wasn't well used back in the day) than any of the other later * lenses.

Marc Sabatella · 09-05-2009, 11:35 AM

Oh, I don't know abut that - I'd imagine *all* the "*" lenses do. And probably a few others too - there just aren't many in the 150-300 range you asked about, and the M200/4 is the only one I'm personally familiar with. Most of the really good non-* lenses are well under 150mm.

Lloydy · 09-05-2009, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by Canada_Rockies

And the aperture will only stop down if you are in M or X on the mode dial. Any other setting will result in Av and the digitals don't have the aperture trace so the lens will only work wide open in Av.

Another note - if you don't like using the green button to have the camera automatically set the shutter speed for you, you can use a scale instead. Set the preview to optical preview and when you pull the power switch into preview mode in M, the display will be a scale in both the top LCD and the viewfinder. Works just like the black needle on my KX.

I hadn't seen that method before, thanks for that.

séamuis · 09-05-2009, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Another note - if you don't like using the green button to have the camera automatically set the shutter speed for you, you can use a scale instead. Set the preview to optical preview and when you pull the power switch into preview mode in M, the display will be a scale in both the top LCD and the viewfinder. Works just like the black needle on my KX.

dang I did not know that. it wont show scale on the top LCD on the istD but it certainly shows on the viewfinder. neat trick! too bad it cant be accessed easier (like a setting in the menu) as its rather inconvenient to hold the switch. but unless I misunderstand what I am seeing, wouldn't this still only work wide open with an unmodified Kmount lens? for a Takumar that you can stop down it would be useful (of course just using Av would be easier with a Takumar) but I cant see how this would give you an accurate reading with a Kmount lens.

**Canada_Rockies** · 09-05-2009, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by Recercare

So apart from the 50mm F1.7 it's only the M*300mm that really compares to the DA* or DA Ltds ?

Not true. There are quite a few * lenses in the M and A series. Most, if not all, are superb lenses. My "when I win the lottery" purchase will be the A* 250-600.

Recercare · 09-05-2009, 11:59 AM

Originally posted by Canada_Rockies

Not true. There are quite a few * lenses in the M and A series. Most, if not all, are superb lenses. My "when I win the lottery" purchase will be the A* 250-600.

My fault, I was thinking of the M-series. I am aware of the superb A* lenses but they seem to be overly expensive. However, there're local auctions here .... a friend of mine purchased an A* 200 F2.8 in excellent condition.... for $120 USD.

Kind regards
.lars

Marc Sabatella · 09-05-2009, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by séamuis

unless I misunderstand what I am seeing, wouldn't this still only work wide open with an unmodified Kmount lens?

No. The DOF preview does exactly what it always does - it stops down the lens for as long as you hold the level in position. Assuming you're in M mode, of course - that's the only mode in which an unmodified K-mount lens ever stops down. So as long as you hold that lever, the lens is stopped down, and you get your meter reading - accurate with all cameras except the K10D and k20D, for which the stock focus screen introduces errors.

séamuis · 09-05-2009, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by Marc Sabatella

No. The DOF preview does exactly what it always does - it stops down the lens for as long as you hold the level in position. Assuming you're in M mode, of course - that's the only mode in which an unmodified K-mount lens ever stops down. So as long as you hold that lever, the lens is stopped down, and you get your meter reading - accurate with all cameras except the K10D and k20D, for which the stock focus screen introduces errors.

ah, I forgot that optical preview stops down the lens... I have been using Takumars for too long. the only non A Kmount I own is an SMC PENTAX 1:1.8/55 and it stays on the KX. Ill have to mount it and see how efficiently I could use such a method.

Marc Sabatella · 09-06-2009, 09:51 PM

My own method is a combination of green button and DOF preview. First I'll point at the scene and green button to get close. Then I'll do the DOF preview and point first into the light area and then into the shadow area to get a sense if I'll need to fine tune from there. Once I've got exposure where I want it, I generally just leave it alone, but will spot check occasionally using DOF preview, again pointing into the light and shadow areas separately to make sure thigns are still reasonable. Especially if the light changes - I'll make a guess at a change to aperture or shutter speed to compensate, then check using the DOF preview.

Since I don't need this display to be active very long, it isn't a big deal that I need to hold the lever to do it.

8540tomg · 09-07-2009, 03:39 AM

Originally posted by Recercare

So apart from the 50mm F1.7 it's only the M*300mm that really compares to the DA* or DA Ltds ?

This is a personal bias but I believe the SMC K 200/2.5 compares favourably with this A* 200/2.8 and the DA* 200/2.8. It lacks AF and AE but is very fast and very sharp. If there had been * designation when this lens was built it may have been given two **.

Tom G

8540tomg · 09-07-2009, 03:43 AM

Originally posted by Canada_Rockies

Try setting the exposure using the Sunny 16 rule. Here it is in a nutshell.

Set the shutter speed to the ISO setting of the camera, and set the aperture as follows with the camera mode dial set to M for manual:

Bright sunny day, normal subject f/16 (hence the name of the technique)
Bright sunny day, snow/beach scene f/22
Bright cloudy day, f/11
Shade or darkish clouds f/8
Really dark day f/5.6

If these don't give you correct exposure, there is something seriously wrong with the lens. It is not stopping down quickly enough for the exposure.

Great advice Albert,

Old guys such as myself remember when this same information was provided in every box of film we bought. It worked for film and works just as well for digital.

Tom G

audiobomber · 09-07-2009, 07:17 AM

Originally posted by Canada_Rockies

Set the shutter speed to the ISO setting of the camera, and set the aperture as follows with the camera mode dial set to M for manual:

Bright sunny day, normal subject f/16 (hence the name of the technique)
Bright sunny day, snow/beach scene f/22
Bright cloudy day, f/11
Shade or darkish clouds f/8
Really dark day f/5.6

Wouldn't an APS-C camera require some adjustment to this rule of thumb? I thought that any given F-stop on a 35mm would be one stop faster than the equivalent aperture on APS-C. If that's true, then for a digital Pentax, Sunny 16 should be Sunny 11?

8540tomg · 09-07-2009, 07:50 AM

Originally posted by audiobomber

Wouldn't an APS-C camera require some adjustment to this rule of thumb? I thought that any given F-stop on a 35mm would be one stop faster than the equivalent aperture on APS-C. If that's true, then for a digital Pentax, Sunny 16 should be Sunny 11?

Albert will probably jump in on this later but I think he would say that the sunny 16 rule is a rule of thumb. It gets you in the ball park as far as exposure goes with the M series lenses. Adjustments usually need to be made but they are relatively minor ones. It doesn't hurt to check the histogram once in a while either. By-and-large the rule works quite well.

Tom G

séamuis · 09-07-2009, 07:54 AM

sunny 16 was never meant to beperfectly accurate anyhow. its still perfectly viable as a rule of thumb in my opinion.

**Canada_Rockies** · 09-07-2009, 08:45 AM

Originally posted by audiobomber

Wouldn't an APS-C camera require some adjustment to this rule of thumb? I thought that any given F-stop on a 35mm would be one stop faster than the equivalent aperture on APS-C. If that's true, then for a digital Pentax, Sunny 16 should be Sunny 11?

Not for exposure. The one stop comment is on the effective depth of field.

Early on with the K10, I did some experimentation with my M 400. The threads on using the manual exposure only lenses were not as clear as they are now; the K10 was the first model to show this metering difficulty. We discussed whether the different rate of movement of the aperture by the lever was the problem, or whether it was the metering that was off.

I tested using Sunny 16 and my M 400. The series is on my Flickr site, and proves to my satisfaction that it is the metering that is at fault. The series is identically exposed. Subsequent threads over time led me to replace the focusing screen with the one from the *ist series. This removed all the metering errors on my camera.

09-05-2009, 11:59 AM	#36
Recercare Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 359	Originally posted by Canada_Rockies Not true. There are quite a few * lenses in the M and A series. Most, if not all, are superb lenses. My "when I win the lottery" purchase will be the A* 250-600. My fault, I was thinking of the M-series. I am aware of the superb A* lenses but they seem to be overly expensive. However, there're local auctions here .... a friend of mine purchased an A* 200 F2.8 in excellent condition.... for $120 USD. Kind regards .lars Last edited by Recercare; 09-05-2009 at 12:05 PM.

09-07-2009, 03:43 AM	#41
8540tomg Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Waterloo, Ontario Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,461	Originally posted by Canada_Rockies Try setting the exposure using the Sunny 16 rule. Here it is in a nutshell. Set the shutter speed to the ISO setting of the camera, and set the aperture as follows with the camera mode dial set to M for manual: Bright sunny day, normal subject f/16 (hence the name of the technique) Bright sunny day, snow/beach scene f/22 Bright cloudy day, f/11 Shade or darkish clouds f/8 Really dark day f/5.6 If these don't give you correct exposure, there is something seriously wrong with the lens. It is not stopping down quickly enough for the exposure. Great advice Albert, Old guys such as myself remember when this same information was provided in every box of film we bought. It worked for film and works just as well for digital. Tom G

09-07-2009, 07:17 AM	#42
audiobomber Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Sudbury, Ontario Photos: Albums Posts: 6,806	Originally posted by Canada_Rockies Set the shutter speed to the ISO setting of the camera, and set the aperture as follows with the camera mode dial set to M for manual: Bright sunny day, normal subject f/16 (hence the name of the technique) Bright sunny day, snow/beach scene f/22 Bright cloudy day, f/11 Shade or darkish clouds f/8 Really dark day f/5.6 Wouldn't an APS-C camera require some adjustment to this rule of thumb? I thought that any given F-stop on a 35mm would be one stop faster than the equivalent aperture on APS-C. If that's true, then for a digital Pentax, Sunny 16 should be Sunny 11?

09-07-2009, 07:50 AM	#43
8540tomg Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Waterloo, Ontario Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,461	Originally posted by audiobomber Wouldn't an APS-C camera require some adjustment to this rule of thumb? I thought that any given F-stop on a 35mm would be one stop faster than the equivalent aperture on APS-C. If that's true, then for a digital Pentax, Sunny 16 should be Sunny 11? Albert will probably jump in on this later but I think he would say that the sunny 16 rule is a rule of thumb. It gets you in the ball park as far as exposure goes with the M series lenses. Adjustments usually need to be made but they are relatively minor ones. It doesn't hurt to check the histogram once in a while either. By-and-large the rule works quite well. Tom G Last edited by 8540tomg; 09-07-2009 at 11:13 AM. Reason: typo

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09-05-2009, 11:32 AM	#31
séamuis Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Savannah, U.S./Baguio City, P.H. Posts: 5,979	Originally posted by Recercare So apart from the 50mm F1.7 it's only the M300mm that really compares to the DA or DA Ltds ? from the M series specifically? well its the only one that received such special recognition. so speaking in terms of designation. yes. however I imagine a number of lenses from the M series could be considered based solely on IQ. one of those being the f2 85mm. however, I do not know enough about the M series to give an serious list. unless you have both the time and the money to spare, I personally wouldn't invest too much of either in trying to find the M* it was as far as I know the first lens to get the * designation and is quite a rare and expensive beast. maybe not so much as expensive compared to the likes of the A* 85 1.4 (mostly due to cult collector status) but its still ranks up there and will be much harder to find (particularly one that wasn't well used back in the day) than any of the other later * lenses.

09-05-2009, 11:35 AM	#32
Marc Sabatella Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Denver, CO Photos: Gallery Posts: 10,685	Oh, I don't know abut that - I'd imagine all the "" lenses do. And probably a few others too - there just aren't many in the 150-300 range you asked about, and the M200/4 is the only one I'm personally familiar with. Most of the really good non- lenses are well under 150mm.

09-05-2009, 11:43 AM	#33
Lloydy Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Shropshire, UK Posts: 1,114	Originally posted by Canada_Rockies And the aperture will only stop down if you are in M or X on the mode dial. Any other setting will result in Av and the digitals don't have the aperture trace so the lens will only work wide open in Av. Another note - if you don't like using the green button to have the camera automatically set the shutter speed for you, you can use a scale instead. Set the preview to optical preview and when you pull the power switch into preview mode in M, the display will be a scale in both the top LCD and the viewfinder. Works just like the black needle on my KX. I hadn't seen that method before, thanks for that.

09-05-2009, 11:52 AM	#34
séamuis Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Savannah, U.S./Baguio City, P.H. Posts: 5,979	Quote: Another note - if you don't like using the green button to have the camera automatically set the shutter speed for you, you can use a scale instead. Set the preview to optical preview and when you pull the power switch into preview mode in M, the display will be a scale in both the top LCD and the viewfinder. Works just like the black needle on my KX. dang I did not know that. it wont show scale on the top LCD on the istD but it certainly shows on the viewfinder. neat trick! too bad it cant be accessed easier (like a setting in the menu) as its rather inconvenient to hold the switch. but unless I misunderstand what I am seeing, wouldn't this still only work wide open with an unmodified Kmount lens? for a Takumar that you can stop down it would be useful (of course just using Av would be easier with a Takumar) but I cant see how this would give you an accurate reading with a Kmount lens.

09-05-2009, 11:57 AM	#35
Canada_Rockies Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Sparwood, BC, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,385	Originally posted by Recercare So apart from the 50mm F1.7 it's only the M300mm that really compares to the DA or DA Ltds ? Not true. There are quite a few * lenses in the M and A series. Most, if not all, are superb lenses. My "when I win the lottery" purchase will be the A* 250-600.

09-05-2009, 02:30 PM	#37
Marc Sabatella Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Denver, CO Photos: Gallery Posts: 10,685	Originally posted by séamuis unless I misunderstand what I am seeing, wouldn't this still only work wide open with an unmodified Kmount lens? No. The DOF preview does exactly what it always does - it stops down the lens for as long as you hold the level in position. Assuming you're in M mode, of course - that's the only mode in which an unmodified K-mount lens ever stops down. So as long as you hold that lever, the lens is stopped down, and you get your meter reading - accurate with all cameras except the K10D and k20D, for which the stock focus screen introduces errors.

09-05-2009, 02:34 PM	#38
séamuis Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Savannah, U.S./Baguio City, P.H. Posts: 5,979	Originally posted by Marc Sabatella No. The DOF preview does exactly what it always does - it stops down the lens for as long as you hold the level in position. Assuming you're in M mode, of course - that's the only mode in which an unmodified K-mount lens ever stops down. So as long as you hold that lever, the lens is stopped down, and you get your meter reading - accurate with all cameras except the K10D and k20D, for which the stock focus screen introduces errors. ah, I forgot that optical preview stops down the lens... I have been using Takumars for too long. the only non A Kmount I own is an SMC PENTAX 1:1.8/55 and it stays on the KX. Ill have to mount it and see how efficiently I could use such a method.

09-06-2009, 09:51 PM	#39
Marc Sabatella Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Denver, CO Photos: Gallery Posts: 10,685	My own method is a combination of green button and DOF preview. First I'll point at the scene and green button to get close. Then I'll do the DOF preview and point first into the light area and then into the shadow area to get a sense if I'll need to fine tune from there. Once I've got exposure where I want it, I generally just leave it alone, but will spot check occasionally using DOF preview, again pointing into the light and shadow areas separately to make sure thigns are still reasonable. Especially if the light changes - I'll make a guess at a change to aperture or shutter speed to compensate, then check using the DOF preview. Since I don't need this display to be active very long, it isn't a big deal that I need to hold the lever to do it.

09-07-2009, 03:39 AM	#40
8540tomg Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Waterloo, Ontario Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,461	Originally posted by Recercare So apart from the 50mm F1.7 it's only the M300mm that really compares to the DA or DA Ltds ? This is a personal bias but I believe the SMC K 200/2.5 compares favourably with this A* 200/2.8 and the DA* 200/2.8. It lacks AF and AE but is very fast and very sharp. If there had been * designation when this lens was built it may have been given two **. Tom G

09-07-2009, 07:54 AM	#44
séamuis Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Savannah, U.S./Baguio City, P.H. Posts: 5,979	sunny 16 was never meant to beperfectly accurate anyhow. its still perfectly viable as a rule of thumb in my opinion.

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09-07-2009, 08:45 AM	#45
Canada_Rockies Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Sparwood, BC, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,385	Originally posted by audiobomber Wouldn't an APS-C camera require some adjustment to this rule of thumb? I thought that any given F-stop on a 35mm would be one stop faster than the equivalent aperture on APS-C. If that's true, then for a digital Pentax, Sunny 16 should be Sunny 11? Not for exposure. The one stop comment is on the effective depth of field. Early on with the K10, I did some experimentation with my M 400. The threads on using the manual exposure only lenses were not as clear as they are now; the K10 was the first model to show this metering difficulty. We discussed whether the different rate of movement of the aperture by the lever was the problem, or whether it was the metering that was off. I tested using Sunny 16 and my M 400. The series is on my Flickr site, and proves to my satisfaction that it is the metering that is at fault. The series is identically exposed. Subsequent threads over time led me to replace the focusing screen with the one from the *ist series. This removed all the metering errors on my camera.