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01-23-2010, 10:57 PM   #76
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I'm just wondering what is the difference regarding talking about the SDM issues over and over again which are created by people who just recently experienced a failed SDM over issues regarding what recommendations on what lens or camera to buy for a newbie or posting a thread regarding that clunking noise from the K-7, complaints about ISO noise on the K-7?

the so-called hysteria is not really a hysteria, IMO. but rather a show of dissatisfaction towards a particular product and give others a warning of the risk of buying a product and at the same time give them another alternative or options that they won't regret. I suppose that we give a damn about others in the forum, that is why we talk about such SDM issues. we are not trying to spread misinformation but rather spread what problems that exist in a certain product.

does it help Pentax at all? the answer can go both ways, YES and NO. NO, since this would affect Pentax sales? Yes, it is good since this would make Pentax do their job as it should be.

does it help the consumers at all? answer can also go both ways? NO, because Pentax can simply ignore such a problem and play innocent til kingdom come. Yes, we the customers can get what we have been asking for in a long time. better reliability and warranty in lenses.


so it's up to Pentax on how it would response to this issue. as long as the SDM failures continues and is experienced by new owners, this issue will refuse to die out.

01-24-2010, 02:37 AM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote
I think a disproportionate response would be to do something silly like sue Pentax for all of the shipping charges I am out because I had to send 5 lenses back.
Yes, the right way would be a class action lawsuit.
01-24-2010, 05:55 AM   #78
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It would be a tough class action lawsuit. Pentax has fixed all of the lenses under warranty, as is their obligation. They would argue that their rate of failure is comparable to that of other companies -- getting the information to compare and see rate of failure on Nikon/Canon/Sigma lens motors is not available, so how to prove anything in a court of law is difficult.
01-24-2010, 06:12 AM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
does it help the consumers at all?
Maybe the answer is "No" because Pentax loses lens sales and in the worst case people even migrate to another branch, even though Pentax did nothing wrong and could not have done better.

I'm not saying I have the answers. It may be the right thing to be cautious regarding a SDM purchase and better be safe than sorry. But I'm not as convinced as some here that there is proof of a design flaw that requires an updated model.

Although the idea of extended warranties is good, it will cost Pentax money. They'll have to get it back to further raising lens prices.

So I'm not convinced that the only possible outcome of an SDM hysteria or SDM issue awareness (depending how one looks at it) will be a positive one for the customer.

If we didn't care for Pentax, we wouldn't be here. So we want it to do well and while we have every right to demand quality for premium prices, we also shouldn't demand unreasonable things. Again, it very well be that demanding a five year warranty for an SDM lens without a price raise is warranted / reasonable but I'm just not so sure as some.

01-24-2010, 06:31 AM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Maybe the answer is "No" because Pentax loses lens sales and in the worst case people even migrate to another branch, even though Pentax did nothing wrong and could not have done better.
Well, they could certainly at least handle the communication about the issue better. It's not like this is a new issue. It has been discussed for years, along with the request for a simple firmware change to turn SDM off.

Even if we'd make the (imo quite naive) assumption that the failure rate of SDM lenses is not significantly higher than for others, they still could do the public relations aspect better.

QuoteQuote:
But I'm not as convinced as some here that there is proof of a design flaw that requires an updated model.
What would convince you? If your lens stops working? Or would that not be enough? (Edit - oh wait you don't seem to own any. Hmmm... well what would convince you?)

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Although the idea of extended warranties is good, it will cost Pentax money. They'll have to get it back to further raising lens prices.
On the other hand IF the breakdown rate is as low as they say, it could in the end earn Pentax money because more people would buy their lenses and less people would move away from the brand, while the actual money expenditure to fix the broken lenses would be low.

QuoteQuote:
If we didn't care for Pentax, we wouldn't be here. So we want it to do well and while we have every right to demand quality for premium prices, we also shouldn't demand unreasonable things. Again, it very well be that demanding a five year warranty for an SDM lens without a price raise is warranted / reasonable but I'm just not so sure as some.
We obviously want to strike a balance between scaring everyone away from Pentax while raising enough awareness that Pentax addresses it somehow.

Obviously extended warranties entail a cost. So does alienating your core customer base and gaining a perception that your top-of-the-line products break down too often.
01-24-2010, 06:47 AM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote
I think a disproportionate response would be to do something silly like sue Pentax for all of the shipping charges I am out because I had to send 5 lenses back.
That's really bad that you lost money in this process. If the same story had happened to me, I'd be probably much more active spreading the word then you are.

QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
Well, they could certainly at least handle the communication about the issue better.
I fully agree. It is sad (and IMHO wrong) that no Pentax official seems to care about this forum with its 20,000+ user base and high visibility for people with an interest in Pentax.

QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
What would convince you? If your lens stops working?
Of course not. That would only be another single incident that says nothing about the proportion of the issue. I'd be convinced if we had access to data showing that the reliability of SDM is worse than that of USM/HSM. As it stand, the current unhappy user base could still be the unfortunate victims of an early bad run.

QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
Obviously extended warranties entail a cost. So does alienating your core customer base and gaining a perception that your top-of-the-line products break down too often.
But notice that that alienation is largely performed by the vocal group of SDM victims. That's why I'm saying let's not be so sure about things we cannot be sure about. The vocal group could cost Pentax money. If Pentax lost money because the vocal group was right in accusing SDM to be an unreliable technology, I'd be all for that! No manufacturer should get away with selling sub-standard stuff for a premium price. But what if SDM is not an unreliable technology? Would the vocal group then provide the service they intend to provide? Or would they rather achieve the opposite?
01-24-2010, 06:58 AM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I'd be convinced if we had access to data showing that the reliability of SDM is worse than that of USM/HSM. As it stand, the current unhappy user base could still be the unfortunate victims of an early bad run.
How would you suggest to get access to the data that would show whether SDM reliability is worse than USM/HSM?

QuoteQuote:
But notice that that alienation is largely performed by the vocal group of SDM victims.
I think we have to distinguish cause from effect. The cause is that the lenses keep failing. The effect is a vocal group of SDM victims. Further effect is alienation.

Blaming the victims for complaining is like blaming those who report crime as being responsible for an increased crime rate.

QuoteQuote:
That's why I'm saying let's not be so sure about things we cannot be sure about. The vocal group could cost Pentax money. If Pentax lost money because the vocal group was right in accusing SDM to be an unreliable technology, I'd be all for that! No manufacturer should get away with selling sub-standard stuff for a premium price. But what if SDM is not an unreliable technology? Would the vocal group then provide the service they intend to provide? Or would they rather achieve the opposite?
OK, what do you suggest? Keep quiet and hope the (perceived or real) problem goes away? Or do you have any other alternatives?

I'd be all for restraint, but I remember similar discussions in more peaceful tones a year or two ago, and I kept thinking 'not to worry, soon they will put out a trivial firmware fix that allows the use of screw-drive on SDM lenses and the issue will be largely resolved'. Now, that hasn't happened, has it?

Last edited by juu; 01-24-2010 at 07:11 AM.
01-24-2010, 11:53 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Maybe the answer is "No" because Pentax loses lens sales and in the worst case people even migrate to another branch, even though Pentax did nothing wrong and could not have done better.

I'm not saying I have the answers. It may be the right thing to be cautious regarding a SDM purchase and better be safe than sorry. But I'm not as convinced as some here that there is proof of a design flaw that requires an updated model.

Although the idea of extended warranties is good, it will cost Pentax money. They'll have to get it back to further raising lens prices.

So I'm not convinced that the only possible outcome of an SDM hysteria or SDM issue awareness (depending how one looks at it) will be a positive one for the customer.

If we didn't care for Pentax, we wouldn't be here. So we want it to do well and while we have every right to demand quality for premium prices, we also shouldn't demand unreasonable things. Again, it very well be that demanding a five year warranty for an SDM lens without a price raise is warranted / reasonable but I'm just not so sure as some.
Class A,
I dont think that extending warranty would cost Pentax significant money. looking at the other alternatives which is equally as good or better than Pentax, the Tamrons and Sigmas cost 1/2 or 1/3 lens than the Pentax SDM zooms. the funny thing is, these 3rd party lenses have longer warranties and they seem to be doing good business and not at a loss.


Last edited by Pentaxor; 01-24-2010 at 02:56 PM.
01-24-2010, 11:58 AM   #84
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I think I remembered Peter asking me to drop the SDM failure jab. but that was when Peter hadn't experienced a fried SDM yet. I believe the general notion is, once you become a part of the crowd, that's the only time that you'll understand.
01-24-2010, 01:24 PM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Maybe the answer is "No" because Pentax loses lens sales and in the worst case people even migrate to another branch, even though Pentax did nothing wrong and could not have done better.

Alternatively, if we kept quiet about it, Pentax would gain lens sales, there might be more failures and Pentax loses customers, not just sales.


I'm not saying I have the answers. It may be the right thing to be cautious regarding a SDM purchase and better be safe than sorry. But I'm not as convinced as some here that there is proof of a design flaw that requires an updated model.
Just because you're not convinced, the problem doesn't go away. Whether it's real or not, the general perception is that there is a problem and the fact that Pentax is keeping quiet about it prolongs that perception.

Although the idea of extended warranties is good, it will cost Pentax money. They'll have to get it back to further raising lens prices.
Yes, it will cost them money if their products aren't up to it. Sigma and Tamron manage to do it ok, so do Nikon.

So I'm not convinced that the only possible outcome of an SDM hysteria or SDM issue awareness (depending how one looks at it) will be a positive one for the customer.
I'm not convinced that not talking about it will mean a positive outcome for the customer.


If we didn't care for Pentax, we wouldn't be here. So we want it to do well and while we have every right to demand quality for premium prices, we also shouldn't demand unreasonable things. Again, it very well be that demanding a five year warranty for an SDM lens without a price raise is warranted / reasonable but I'm just not so sure as some.
I care about photography and I happen to use Pentax, that's why I'm here. If Pentax were to fold, that wouldn't mean my equipment would stop working (unless maybe I had some SDM lenses) and I'm sure there is a good chance a digital version of Eric would spring up. Regardless though, if Pentax folded, I would have plenty of time to make a leisurely transition to another brand.

.
01-27-2010, 09:50 PM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by juu Quote
Blaming the victims for complaining is like blaming those who report crime as being responsible for an increased crime rate.
I'm not blaming the victims for complaining at all.

In response to other posts as well, I don't suggest that everyone should be quite about their SDM problems either.

I think, however, there is a difference between reporting ones problems (and telling Pentax about one's discontent) and actively plastering the forum with as many warning signs as possible, proclaiming the existence of a major systemic problem.

I'm not accusing anyone of doing the latter. I'd be probably worse than that if I had went through six SDM lenses, losing postage money on each.

In summary, I merely suggested that despite the apparently high number of victims, we have cannot have any certainty about the existence of a major problem that implies that it is unsafe to buy a factory new SDM zoom.
01-27-2010, 10:46 PM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I merely suggested that despite the apparently high number of victims, we cannot have any certainty about the existence of a major problem that implies that it is unsafe to buy a factory new SDM zoom.
But Class A, doesn't the red part of your sentence suggest an answer to the blue part?
01-27-2010, 10:56 PM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote
But Class A, doesn't the red part of your sentence suggest an answer to the blue part?
PP to the rescue, I've been thinking about giving this thread a cynical bump for two days now. thanks mate.
01-27-2010, 11:53 PM   #89
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Class A, you are not suggesting that victims are just a part of a collateral damage? I just can't imagine those collateral damage piling up as Pentax keeps on keeping a mum into it?

I just heard on the news that Toyota had recalled about a million cars due to defects. atleast that company had what it takes to value their customers. I even liked it when they even issue an explanation and not leave the general public in the dark about it. why can't Pentax say the same thing? atleast people would respect a brand which is honest about it's product. I'm sure people would still buy a Toyota since it's apparent that they are going to do something about it.

as far as the argument that Toyota is a big company, doesn't really matter. Tamron and Sigma are not bigger than Pentax, but they offer services that are much more customer friendly and efficient.
01-28-2010, 12:32 AM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
Class A, you are not suggesting that victims are just a part of a collateral damage? I just can't imagine those collateral damage piling up as Pentax keeps on keeping a mum into it?

I just heard on the news that Toyota had recalled about a million cars due to defects. atleast that company had what it takes to value their customers. I even liked it when they even issue an explanation and not leave the general public in the dark about it. why can't Pentax say the same thing? atleast people would respect a brand which is honest about it's product. I'm sure people would still buy a Toyota since it's apparent that they are going to do something about it.

as far as the argument that Toyota is a big company, doesn't really matter. Tamron and Sigma are not bigger than Pentax, but they offer services that are much more customer friendly and efficient.
That is a bit apples and oranges, there's a safety issue with cars that can't be ignored. Ford tried it when there were those tire problems a few years ago and it didn't do them any favours.

Having said that, someone throwing their K20 off the top of the Empire State building in frustration because SDM had just failed on them could be considered a public safety issue.
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