[stevebrot]

The original poster is in grief. According to the Kübler-Ross model of grief there are 5 stages:

Denial (Pentax will be releasing a DA* version of the 11-16mm any minute now)
Anger (Tokina and Pentax: this is outrageous) to be followed by:
Bargaining
Depression and
Acceptance.

I about fell out of my chair when I read this! Very funny and very likely true! I had never considered that there is an aspect of grief associated when the move to acquire is frustrated. Very, very good. Thanks!

Steve

[Class A]

The old Pentax company undervalued their products to the point that the company was facing bankruptcy ...

So do you think if they had offered their lenses and *ist DSLRS for higher prices they wouldn't have ended up being bought up?
"Undervalued their products"? I don't think so. If you missed the boat and lag behind, you've got to give the customer some reason no to ignore you.

...with the consequence being that we, the end user, are going to pay rather a hefty premium.

Elsewhere you seem to express that it is "in line" with competitors. Are competitors charging a hefty premium as well?

people are really starting to sound like a bunch of sniveling children who think Hoya owes them something.

No need to get abusive. And no one thinks Hoya owes them something. But everyone has the right to think over whether Pentax still deals the best cards for them. Pentax has the right to play business and charge premiums but the customer also has the right to take their business elsewhere.

A forum is a platform to discuss such "thinking over". Sometimes one starts a discussion with the secret desire to be proven wrong about something. So I don't see the point of telling someone how tired one is to see a particular question or point again and again. Reading less posts is a better remedy for being topic tired, isn't it?

[Class A]

I agree, it's frustrating pentax doesn't have any truly cheap primes...

I think the FA 50/1.4 is rather cheap. It's just that they charge so much money for it.
Sorry, I couldn't let that one pass.
(And yes, I don't really believe it is cheap. Good lens with impressive optics).

If that recommendation was based only on th FA50, though, what kind of recommendation was that?

Well, a while ago I could confidently state that Pentax lenses were very affordably priced compared to the competition. Now I'm not so sure anymore. It may still be the case but for sure the game has changed (see below) and I would have to re-analyse.

And correct blatant misrepresentations of fact, too.

Please note that the price hike for non-US customers is not an illusion. They are experiencing it for real. You seem to suggest that Pentax is not to blame for this. I'm not sure. Could it not be that Pentax raised prices everywhere but in the US because the US is special market for them? It is typical for manufacturers to e.g., have different warranty policies for the US and the rest of the world, just because the US is such a competitive market. Why do you don't see the dollar to yen exchange rate change reflected in your prices? It seems to me that Pentax changed the game globally and just lets the US of the hook because it of its competitive market.

It suddenly struck me that if Pentax were as avaricious and conniving as some think they are, it would be a smart move to make all new camera models with mounts that would not accept old glass, thereby forcing us to buy the new lenses.

You can play the Canikon game if you are Canikon. Pentax is well-advised to retain some unique brand advantage. And it isn't the case that they are not enticing you to buy new glass. Body support for old glass could be better and it is no accident that some new features are available for new glass only.

.
Wheatfield may seem grumpy at times, but he has a wealth of knowledge about photography in general and Pentax in particular. He's a pretty valuable member of the forum because of this. You'd be better served taking him off ignore and learning something form him from time to time - I know I have!

+1

[Class A]

And this isn't whining?

He could have said it using a nice tone but it certainly was a true observation.

Absolutely but some call it venting, others call it whining, Wheatfield was just exercising his right as are you.

I think what jboyde is responding to is Wheatfield's sometimes not so subtle language, such as "constant bitching", "a bunch of sniveling children who think Hoya owes them something.". To jboyde's credit (and others that criticise Pentax) he did not "attack" others with such language. (I'm using "attack" in quotation marks because I don't really mean "attack" but cannot think of a better word.)

I feel there is a difference between people voicing their frustration about Pentax and others that personally "attack" the former. Yep, let's not be over-sensitive and try to be not offended by personal "attacks" but it seems to me that you fail to see this difference between the "whiners".

And bore the rest of us to tears because we've heard it so many times

That's the problem of the "rest of us". Perhaps the "rest of us" spends too much time in the forum. If someone has a potentially legitimate concern they should have the right to get decent responses no matter how tired/bored some forum members may be.

[Wheatfield]

So do you think if they had offered their lenses and *ist DSLRS for higher prices they wouldn't have ended up being bought up?

I suspect even by then, it was too late. Pentax camera bodies had been steadfastly lagging behind the competition since the late 60s, early 70s. The Nikon F2 and Canon F1 cameras went unanswered by Pentax for almost 10 years until they released the LX.
Camera body specifications are what sell camera bodies. Camera bodies tend to sell lenses.
Pentax forgot that, and lost lens sales to companies that were making higher performance bodies.
Minolta allowed themselves to lag as well, and they eventually lost their camera division for it.
To go back to your question, the *istD was no performance match to it's competitors when it was introduced, and I recall it was a very expensive camera to buy into. At introduction, the *istD was overpriced, and I suspect if it had been introduced at a higher price point, it would have failed.

"Undervalued their products"? I don't think so. If you missed the boat and lag behind, you've got to give the customer some reason no to ignore you.

Whatever semantic spin you want to give it, if your selling price is too close to your manufacturing/distribution cost to allow for profit, then you aren't going to make enough money to survive.
If you fall so far behind the curve that you have to sell below cost to make the sale, then as a company, you are pretty much doomed to fail.

Elsewhere you seem to express that it is "in line" with competitors. Are competitors charging a hefty premium as well?

I was quite pleased to see that the FA50/1.4 was priced correctly. It does reinforce my opinion that the pricing complaints are unjustified.
The pricing is not "preposterous, it would seem.
Some other products seem to me to be rather on the high side compared to the competition, but if the development costs have to be recovered over fewer sold units, then the price can be expected to be higher.

[Class A]

... leaving students/ value-driven hobbyists without a 50mm 1.8 in line with the Pentax value we thought we were buying into when we bought our cameras.

Well, you'll probably hear from someone that you can still get a cheap 50/1.4 or 55/1.8 manual lens on the used market, but

1. this means you have to deal with a used market and cannot buy new (one can make great finds but will also have to deal with dust, mould, and all other sorts of potential old lens diseases).
2. you don't get an AF lens.
3. Pentax isn't earning anything from your purchase.

Your story is the exactly the one I have in mind when I have doubts about the new pricing policy. And of course it's current sister story which doesn't even get to the part where you make the decision for Pentax.

Ah well, I need a rest... all will be good.

[stevebrot]

Well, you'll probably hear from someone that you can still get a cheap 50/1.4 or 55/1.8 manual lens on the used market...

Here goes!

Helios 44M (name your variant) 58/2

• Plentiful at auction
• Industrial build
• Heroic optical quality
• Cult classic
• Generally less than $35 and often far less. Sometimes $35 attached to Zenit camera!

Steve

(Always beating the drum for the Helios...even at the risk of driving the price up...)

That's the problem of the "rest of us". Perhaps the "rest of us" spends too much time in the forum. If someone has a potentially legitimate concern they should have the right to get decent responses no matter how tired/bored some forum members may be.

There's a lot of things that people expect they should have a right to but this is an imperfect world. Members have a right to speak their mind just as others have a right to respond in whatever fashion they deem fit (within reason). This thread is a case in point, yes it's a concern but it's also a concern that's been flogged to death already. If Pentax haven't come on here already with an explanation or apology to address these concerns (which are subjective) they're not likely to.
If member A doesn't like something member B says, they have a choice in how they respond or can decide not to respond at all. Wheatfield likes to press people's buttons (so do I for that matter). If people allow their buttons to be pressed they're equally guilty so your suggestion above about a right to decent responses is a moot point. The only right a person has in that direction is to not receive responses that go beyond what is acceptable by the site's administration. If they do get responses beyond what is acceptable the appropriate action will be taken.
Your suggestion that the "rest of us" spend too much time on the forum could be considered equally aggressive to anything Wheatfield has posted regardless of how it is worded. Due to the nature of discussions on a forum, without face to face contact, people should take anything said with a pinch of salt because it is usually impossible to really know the intention of what has been said.

[Class A]

...yes it's a concern but it's also a concern that's been flogged to death already.

By whom? Not by me. Not by anyone else who raises it the first time for them.

You cannot expect everyone to be on top on what the forum as a whole has flogged to death. It clearly is a individual perspective of whether or not something is worth discussing and I believe a good advise for a moderator would be to suggest to the people who are annoyed to stay away from threads they are bored with. That would be "moderating" (calming down) rather than encouraging people to make statements that have to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Of course people have every right to express their boredom, but why you are defending condescending language rather than suggesting they don't do it, I don't understand.

If Pentax haven't come on here already with an explanation or apology to address these concerns (which are subjective) they're not likely to.

Not the point.

If people allow their buttons to be pressed they're equally guilty

By analogy "If an invaded country allows other to invade..." or what? I agree that people should read messages with a grain of salt, should not be over-sensitive and should not overreact. But you seem to be suggesting that only the receiving end should be behaving correctly in order to avoid the problem.

The only right a person has in that direction is to not receive responses that go beyond what is acceptable by the site's administration.

You are right. I got that wrong. People don't have a right to get a decent response. But what's the point of people voicing their boredom when they could equally just stay away from the thread and leave those to the discussion that benefit from it?

Your suggestion that the "rest of us" spend too much time on the forum could be considered equally aggressive to anything Wheatfield has posted regardless of how it is worded.

Sorry, I cannot imagine how that can be true. I offered an explanation as to why some seem to be compelled to disturb the discussion of others expressing their being bored. If they read less of the same threads, they wouldn't be as bored and could perhaps better tolerate such threads. No?

My comment was not meant as an aggression in any way, it was meant as a potential explanation. I don't see how the same can be said of the "pressing of buttons" of others.

By whom? Not by me. Not by anyone else who raises it the first time for them.
This just goes back to what I said earlier about people being free to say what they like (within reason).


You cannot expect everyone to be on top on what the forum as a whole has flogged to death. It clearly is a individual perspective of whether or not something is worth discussing and I believe a good advise for a moderator would be to suggest to the people who are annoyed to stay away from threads they are bored with. That would be "moderating" (calming down) rather than encouraging people to make statements that have to be taken with a pinch of salt.
I'm not expecting anything.
Moderating is a minefield and actions taken are subjective. The assumption is that members are adult enough to make their own decisions. Stepping in to calm things down is done on a case by case basis and usually it is because a thread is deemed valuable enough to be saved, otherwise people are allowed to duke it out or the thread is closed.

Of course people have every right to express their boredom, but why you are defending condescending language rather than suggesting they don't do it, I don't understand.
I'm not defending anything other than members right to speak their mind (myself included) within what is deemed acceptable.


Not the point.
In your opinion which you have a right to.


By analogy "If an invaded country allows other to invade..." or what? I agree that people should read messages with a grain of salt, should not be over-sensitive and should not overreact. But you seem to be suggesting that only the receiving end should be behaving correctly in order to avoid the problem.
I'm suggesting that everyone has a choice in how they behave (within reason).



You are right. I got that wrong. People don't have a right to get a decent response. But what's the point of people voicing their boredom when they could equally just stay away from the thread and leave those to the discussion that benefit from it?
That's up to the individual.



Sorry, I cannot imagine how that can be true. I offered an explanation as to why some seem to be compelled to disturb the discussion of others expressing their being bored. If they read less of the same threads, they wouldn't be as bored and could perhaps better tolerate such threads. No?

My comment was not meant as an aggression in any way, it was meant as a potential explanation. I don't see how the same can be said of the "pressing of buttons" of others.
Maybe I should have used the term "passive aggressive" in that comment but regardless, I merely said how your comment could be taken. The fact that you are explaining your intent with the comment we're discussing here is a case in point about the difficulties of having a discussion online like this.

Bottom line, this is a 'your opinion' 'my opinion' discussion. We all have differing opinions and expectations and that situation isn't going to change generally, of course, the individual may adjust their own personal attitude toward it. All anyone can expect is that the administration endeavours to be alert to things 'crossing the line' and believe me, we don't shirk that responsibility and do the best we can.

[Class A]

All anyone can expect is that the administration endeavours to be alert to things 'crossing the line' and believe me, we don't shirk that responsibility and do the best we can.

Very well.
I think I've mistaken the "forum police" with the "forum nanny".

Very well.
I think I've mistaken the "forum police" with the "forum nanny".

Yeah well, some of you need a nanny... and diapers.

[cheekygeek]

The bottom line is that NO DIGITAL SLR has as many excellent and reasonably-priced lens options as Pentax, as long as you aren't allergic to manually focusing. If there are too few K-Mount lenses in the world for you, get a genuine Pentax M-42 adapter and the world is your oyster.

It is only people who feel they have to have AF that even THINK about complaining about lens selection/prices on Pentax. This is the #1 reason I selected Pentax (K200D owner).

[Ben_Edict]

The bottom line is that NO DIGITAL SLR has as many excellent and reasonably-priced lens options as Pentax, as long as you aren't allergic to manually focusing. If there are too few K-Mount lenses in the world for you, get a genuine Pentax M-42 adapter and the world is your oyster.

It is only people who feel they have to have AF that even THINK about complaining about lens selection/prices on Pentax. This is the #1 reason I selected Pentax (K200D owner).

I subscribe to that. The problem is: AF has been the standard for the last 15 years - and there is anything but 'zillions of Pentax AF lenses available. Hey I use my old Graflex - that doesn't mean, the majority of photographers should do so. The majority wants AF.

Ben

[cheekygeek]

The majority wants AF.

Sure, but that's because it is considered "the norm" by the generation that has come into photography over the last 15 years.

I say "Question Reality":
Why turn the simple act of focusing over to some algorithm? I would argue that actively taking control of what you are focusing on will lead you to being a better visualizer/photographer.

If you find manual focusing difficult, how about MASTERING IT? Doing anything worthwhile well SHOULD be a little difficult. Maybe it will mean getting a real focusing screen for your camera. Not as sexy as getting a new lens (perhaps) but it will give you more control over focusing a whole world of MF lenses.