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01-21-2010, 01:36 AM   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
just maybe they are secretly made by Canon...........
Canon 17-55 f2.8 EF-S IS 29% IS failure, AF electronics, ERR99
LensRentals.com - Lens Repair Data 3.5
Another $1000 lens I'd have a hard time trusting....
# The Canon 17-55 IS has always been a high repair rate lens, although it’s been more problematic during the last 6 months than previously. We don’t think anything is really different, since the types of repairs are the same as they’ve always been and the rate, while up a bit, isn’t hugely higher.
# The Canon 50 f1.4 joins the list this period. Autofocus motor failure tended to hit hard at about one year’s use, which is why it hasn’t shown up until now — we only started stocking this lens about 18 months ago.
Careful there jeff. I know well the Lensrental site you are referring to. Just under the information you posted above, is this statement from lensrental:

"Fanboys love to misuse the list above, and one of the common things I’ve seen is,“Brand X has the most (or least) lenses on Lensrentals’ high repair rate list.” Lets keep it in perspective. There were 45 Canon, 36 Nikon, 17 Sigma, 6 Tamron, and 3 Tokina lenses eligible to make the list. The final makeup was 7 Canon, 6 Nikon, 3 Sigma, and 1 Tamron. Every brand seems to have some troubled and some trouble free lenses."

I am not accusing you of being a "fanboy" but it sure would be nice if we didn't divert focus away from the purpose of this thread which is a discussion of 16-50 problems. Also, I don't think that we should take comfort in data from one of the largest lens rental companies, that doesn't even see the Pentax market as being large enough to carry any Pentax lenses.


Last edited by PentaxPoke; 01-21-2010 at 01:47 AM.
01-21-2010, 02:36 AM   #137
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QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote
Careful there jeff. I know well the Lensrental site you are referring to. Just under the information you posted above, is this statement from lensrental:

"Fanboys love to misuse the list above, and one of the common things I’ve seen is,“Brand X has the most (or least) lenses on Lensrentals’ high repair rate list.” Lets keep it in perspective. There were 45 Canon, 36 Nikon, 17 Sigma, 6 Tamron, and 3 Tokina lenses eligible to make the list. The final makeup was 7 Canon, 6 Nikon, 3 Sigma, and 1 Tamron. Every brand seems to have some troubled and some trouble free lenses."

I am not accusing you of being a "fanboy" but it sure would be nice if we didn't divert focus away from the purpose of this thread which is a discussion of 16-50 problems. Also, I don't think that we should take comfort in data from one of the largest lens rental companies, that doesn't even see the Pentax market as being large enough to carry any Pentax lenses.
lensrental's referring to Canikonians trashing each other or trashing 3rd party lenses. In the original post and several other posts, other brands were mentioned as potential alternatives. jeffkrol's post is on-topic.

The grass is always greener on the other side.

I also find it interesting that lens image stabilization mechanism failure is an extra problem.
01-21-2010, 04:37 AM   #138
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QuoteOriginally posted by Igilligan Quote
I have longed for the 50-135, but not until the sdm issues is 'admitted' and solved or a given a 6 year warranty like the tamrons have.
That's what's needed as much as anything. If they feel there are no issues with them, at least stand by them. Tamron has a standard 6 year warranty. Sigma at least 3 years on their EX line. Nikon seems to have a 5 year warranty. That leaves us in the ranks of Canon with a crappy one year warranty, though I've heard a lot of stories of Canon fixing or replacing lenses out of warranty on their dime. I held off buying this lens because if a potential issue as I'm always one of the "lucky" ones with things like this. Now with the price hikes, I can't afford one anyway, and can't see paying so much more than the Sigma or Tamron.
01-21-2010, 05:24 AM   #139
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Maybe Pentax needs to realize that while the failure rate may not be all that high by their standards, there's a perception by the public that it is unacceptably high. It's fair enough to say that it may seem like a higher failure rate once you factor in that we are a small community and aren't scattered across all of the sites that C & N users are. But that perception is there none the less, and it is keeping people from buying these lenses. Even if there is nothing in the actually design to fix, there needs to be some sort of damage control from Pentax. Besides that, there's room for improvement in 99% of everything.

01-21-2010, 07:37 AM   #140
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I agree with Jodokast... regardless if in putting all the data together there really is a significant issue or not, threads like these are scaring people away from investing in the SDM lenses.

It is possible that pentax has all the data and can see that the issue is blown out of proportion... however, what better way to create confidence in the product than by sticking a 5-6-10 year warrenty with it.
01-21-2010, 08:34 AM   #141
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QuoteOriginally posted by paulelescoces Quote

It is possible that pentax has all the data and can see that the issue is blown out of proportion... however, what better way to create confidence in the product than by sticking a 5-6-10 year warrenty with it.
Indeed.

Pentax says there is NO PROBLEM - If they really feel that way they should be comfortable enough extending the warranty out to 5 years since it won't cost them anything. Having the worst warranty in the business combined with shaky reliability reports from consumers is a marketing nightmare.

I have 3 SDM lenses (including 16-50 for 2 years) and I've never had a failure... however my confidence in the product is shaken by all these reports. If they provided a 5 year warranty I would be much more confident in continuing down this line.
01-21-2010, 10:00 AM   #142
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QuoteOriginally posted by paulelescoces Quote
I agree with Jodokast... regardless if in putting all the data together there really is a significant issue or not, threads like these are scaring people away from investing in the SDM lenses.

It is possible that pentax has all the data and can see that the issue is blown out of proportion... however, what better way to create confidence in the product than by sticking a 5-6-10 year warrenty with it.

If you look at the ratio of posts in this thread to views (157 to 4,729) Pentax has a bigger problem than what their data will show.

When I read the for sale posts and see a DA* lens for sale, I think someone is dumping their problem. Hope people don't mistaken the DA line in the same light (guilty by association).

Tim
01-21-2010, 10:06 AM   #143
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Tim, not sure if I understood your comment.

I dont think you can extrapolate the % error in the "posts" to the "viewer" population. My expectation is that those who have the issue are vocal in that fact and that the "real world" problem is far smaller than these sample populations indicate.

regardless... the "viewing" population are probably worried and have lost confidence following the many threads on these issues (within which the same people complain in each one)... as such, Pentax backing up the "there is no problem" with a decent warranty would be a very good step forward for them.

01-21-2010, 10:26 AM   #144
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QuoteOriginally posted by paulelescoces Quote
I dont think you can extrapolate the % error in the "posts" to the "viewer" population. My expectation is that those who have the issue are vocal in that fact and that the "real world" problem is far smaller than these sample populations indicate.
In many cases on the internet, I will grant you that a vocal minority can blow something out of proportion. In the case of SDM issues though, I firmly believe that this is not some vocal minority making the issues bigger than they actually are. Across every Pentax forum I peruse or participate in, there are many people who have posted about SDM problems. And the fact that SDM has earned the "simply doesn't move" moniker, which is the problem that my 50-135 suffers, is telling that this is likely a real issue, and not just some rare issue.

Like many others, my 50-135 has not had a complete failure, but I can tell you, it is not fun to mount your $800 lens, press the shutter, and have nothing happen. Eventually, it has always "woken up" in my case (though I haven't figured out a pattern of why or when it "wakes up"), but until that occurs, it frustrates the heck out of me. And once again, this has never occurred with my Tamron zooms, or FA primes, or DA limiteds, etc. Only the 50-135.

So once again, if there is no or little issue and this is an isolated incident, Pentax should have no problem fixing or replacing my 50-135 for free. If this is a serious design flaw, then Pentax should be obligated to fix or replace my 50-135 for free. Very simple.
01-21-2010, 10:27 AM   #145
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QuoteOriginally posted by paulelescoces Quote
regardless... the "viewing" population are probably worried and have lost confidence following the many threads on these issues (within which the same people complain in each one)... as such, Pentax backing up the "there is no problem" with a decent warranty would be a very good step forward for them.
Exactly on both points. Perception (real or forum generated) is the reality and an extended warranty would reduce the "risK' perception.

Tim

Edit to add: My perception is that the SDM issue appears to be related to the number of shutter actuations. Heavy users are seeing issues and some not-so-heavy users but all have a risk related to hitting the magic actuation number after the warranty is done.

Last edited by atupdate; 01-21-2010 at 10:32 AM.
01-21-2010, 11:02 AM   #146
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QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote
Careful there jeff. I know well the Lensrental site you are referring to. Just under the information you posted above, is this statement from lensrental:

"Fanboys love to misuse the list above, and one of the common things I’ve seen is,“Brand X has the most (or least) lenses on Lensrentals’ high repair rate list.” Lets keep it in perspective. There were 45 Canon, 36 Nikon, 17 Sigma, 6 Tamron, and 3 Tokina lenses eligible to make the list. The final makeup was 7 Canon, 6 Nikon, 3 Sigma, and 1 Tamron. Every brand seems to have some troubled and some trouble free lenses."

I am not accusing you of being a "fanboy" but it sure would be nice if we didn't divert focus away from the purpose of this thread which is a discussion of 16-50 problems. Also, I don't think that we should take comfort in data from one of the largest lens rental companies, that doesn't even see the Pentax market as being large enough to carry any Pentax lenses.
There biggest complaint is saying one brand is better then another based on this data. Singling out one lens and highlighting it's failure rate is perfectly valid..
It is a fact.. from them.
I suppose I should add "Pentax lens may actually have a higher failure rate than this but we have no clue"..
Pentax's problem is not in a "bubble" on it's own. IF these failure rates were not known we could easily assume Pentax is all alone in it's problems. Which wouldn't be fair either in my eyes.
My SPIN on the problem.... Pentax had/has a problem effectively assembling this lens (de centering defects.. caused by in all liklihood.. cheap Chinese parts and a 3rd world assembly staff... Nobody hand collimates every lens nowadays except maybe Leica. And nobody QC every lens either.. Not C not N except maybe Leica..
Are they better or worse than other brands.. I'd say they are fairly equal if all things are considered. Unfortunately we do not have other brands (wll most of us) and it becomes personal not logical anymore.
OF course they have some issues with this lens, or nobody would have a problem.
THAT is self evident and need not be elevated above that as in it's a PENTAX problem, not anyone else's. It is and it isn't...
The lens is new tech for Pentax and there could be a combination of gasket tolerance problems, especially in changing climates, coupled with a weak or under engineered motor mount. On top of this you have the usual single part failures (ie motor) complicating the issue.
Does this help those that have failures?? No not directly. Is Pentax looking into the issue and not just ignoring everyone. Most likely. Are they going to tell us anything.. historically no.
Will new lenses be better.... they will if Pentax wants to survive...
Am I apologising for Pentax........NO...
Is a 1 year warranty a bad idea.. Yes.....
If the lens was THAT bad people would (or should be)be voting more with their wallet. No sales, no more lens...or a better version..
More effective then internet whining (no offense intended).
Since you want to keep it this lens I can't expand into other SDM lens failures...
BUT, again, no harm in looking at the track record of other companies...
01-21-2010, 12:19 PM   #147
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QuoteOriginally posted by atupdate Quote

Edit to add: My perception is that the SDM issue appears to be related to the number of shutter actuations. Heavy users are seeing issues and some not-so-heavy users but all have a risk related to hitting the magic actuation number after the warranty is done.
There's probably more to it Tim.
A few light users of their 16-50s have noted SDM failures after leaving their lenses in the closet for an extended period (weeks to months). The general advice then was to 'keep the lens alive' every so often (more than weekly or so - an arbitrary figure) to avoid this underuse failure. Then you have the pros and other heavy users who get their failures from overuse (which all electronics would be prone to), but the time frame for this is definitely on the short end of expected time periods for DA* lenses and for the money invested in them.
01-21-2010, 12:22 PM   #148
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This is the general attitude reflected by Pentax as quoted by one rep:

While I do respect Pentax Forums, I think that people have a pile on mentality with complaining about a product on the internet. Ten people have a problem, and fifty other people who do not have the issue feel like complaining as well, because they think their product might fail someday.

The fact is that repairs as a percentage of sales for SDM lenses show that SDM lenses have an equal or lower failure rate than other lenses. That is not an opinion, that is the actual repair data! I am not saying every lens we have ever made is perfect, I am just saying that you have no higher of a chance of a lens failing with a SDM lens as with another model lens, so the perception that the SDM lenses have some inherent fault is false.


With this point of view where would there be a need for extended warranty?
01-21-2010, 01:34 PM   #149
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
I am just saying that you have no higher of a chance of a lens failing with a SDM lens as with another model lens, so the perception that the SDM lenses have some inherent fault is false.
I'm calling a CYA BS on the Pentax rep in this one. I have owned a lot of Pentax lenses over the years, and ONLY the SDM ones have failed.
01-21-2010, 08:19 PM   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
This is the general attitude reflected by Pentax as quoted by one rep:
If they have the figures backing up that there is no SDM issue, why does Peter not get this reply as well?

There are a number of reasons I can think of why Peter hasn't heard a peep from anyone, but none of them is a good one.
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