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01-16-2010, 08:13 PM   #1
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Does anyone know who's lens this is?

I sold a F 50mm 1.7 that was not damaged like this. The buyer is requesting I refund him $35 of the money he paid. He filed a claim with paypal and is attempting to force me to lower my price after the sale.

He claims the photos sent were of the lens I sent him but he refuses to show the entire lens. The lens I sold him has a distinct mark that can be seen if he were to show me the entire photos. I have a feeling he may have found a photo on the web and is claiming that to be the one I sent him. There is no way on earth this is the lens I sent him. I packaged it too well for any damage to mark it like this. I suspect fraud.

I'm hoping that someone on here can point me to where I might be able to see this same photo online and use it as evidence for paypal if he indeed is trying to pull something.

Thanks in advance. Best wishes,

-albert

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01-16-2010, 08:18 PM   #2
Zav
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QuoteQuote:
he refuses to show the entire lens
This sums it all.
Do you still have the serial number of the lens you sold?
01-16-2010, 08:25 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zav Quote
This sums it all.
Do you still have the serial number of the lens you sold?
Yes, I do.
01-16-2010, 09:45 PM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by AlbertSiegel Quote
He claims the photos sent were of the lens I sent him but he refuses to show the entire lens. The lens I sold him has a distinct mark that can be seen if he were to show me the entire photos. I have a feeling he may have found a photo on the web and is claiming that to be the one I sent him. There is no way on earth this is the lens I sent him. I packaged it too well for any damage to mark it like this. I suspect fraud.
Was this through eBay or some other site that has policies covering sale disputes? I saw this on the PayPal website:

QuoteQuote:
For Significantly Not as Described (SNAD) Claims, PayPal may require you to ship the item back to the seller - or to PayPal - or to a third party at your expense, and to provide proof of delivery.

For transactions that total less than $250, proof of delivery is confirmation that can be viewed online and includes: the delivery address, delivery date, and the URL to the shipping company’s web site if you’ve selected “Other” in the shipping drop down menu. For transactions that total $250 or more, you must get signature confirmation of delivery.
Is this guy claiming it was packaged poorly or is he claiming you didn't reveal the damage? Maybe I'm missing something, but that damage appears to have been caused by a pointed object striking the lens. If it happened during shipping, unless you packaged it with a sharp and loose object, then there would have to be evident damage to the box.

Certainly check the policies of all involved parties to see how you the seller are protected. This guy, in the very least, owes you convincing proof that this is the lens you sold him. Is it possible for him to photograph the lens with the damage and the "distinct mark" both visible? It's not as if you're asking a photographer much to take a picture. And, although this stuff can be altered, I'd even prefer the images come with exif and unaltered.

Best of luck.

01-16-2010, 10:58 PM   #5
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Well it could be a legitimate claim or the buyer has the same lens but damaged and is trying to pass off your good one as being damaged.

I usually take photos of the lens, packaging and shipping label before I send out any eBay item. This is both to provide assurance to the buyer that I'm legit and also as evidence to settle any possible dispute in the event of a claim down the road. Also I had a bad experience in the past when somebody asked if he could do a local pickup. I stupidly agreed, and after receiving the item the buyer claimed non-delivery a few days later. Fortunately I managed to resolve the issue with Paypal. So I rely on the post now because there is a paper trail and have supporting photos too as evidence.
01-16-2010, 11:24 PM   #6
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It could be a scam, it could be legit. Regardless, don't give him money if he doesn't want to show the entire lens. The worst that could happen is you get your lens back and get a negative and the buyer gets their money back. I know it's a pretty shitty situation, but unfortunately, that's just how some people are on eBay. Good luck.
01-17-2010, 06:12 AM   #7
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Have him send you a picture of the lens including the serial number.
Or, have him return the lens to you (at his expense) so that you can compare serial numbers.
If the numbers match, refund his money, if they don't, then let him pay return postage if he wants his lens back.
01-17-2010, 10:35 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Have him send you a picture of the lens including the serial number.
Or, have him return the lens to you (at his expense) so that you can compare serial numbers.
If the numbers match, refund his money, if they don't, then let him pay return postage if he wants his lens back.
Wheatfield's suggestion is a good one.

As Wasser pointed out, damage during shipping is a different issue. As a buyer, it is my practice to photograph the box and the un-boxing for anything that I buy as documentation that damage did not occur in transit. Have the buyer provide proof that the item was well-packed and that the packaging was intact and in good order.

Steve

01-17-2010, 11:06 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Have him send you a picture of the lens including the serial number.
Or, have him return the lens to you (at his expense) so that you can compare serial numbers.
If the numbers match, refund his money, if they don't, then let him pay return postage if he wants his lens back.
QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Wheatfield's suggestion is a good one.

As Wasser pointed out, damage during shipping is a different issue. As a buyer, it is my practice to photograph the box and the un-boxing for anything that I buy as documentation that damage did not occur in transit. Have the buyer provide proof that the item was well-packed and that the packaging was intact and in good order.

Steve
Personal experience: A determined crook will always win.

The unfortunate truth is, you can ask for all the Serial Number photos you want; you could have taken all the pictures you wanted before shipping, and the buyer could still say, "You didn't ship me the lens you photographed."

IOW, the buyer could have a damaged copy of the lens you sold, fake photos of "removing it from the box," show the damaged lens as the one "you sent," and there is absolutely no way to prove the buyer is lying and you aren't (short of digging into EXIF time-of-photos in jpeg's). Even using EXIF you can't prove anything - you just make the buyer's story look more suspect.

A determined crook will always win at this game. The only question is how determined the buyer is, and how many hurdles you throw up to make the buyer jump over.

Personally, I'd offer the buyer $17.50 and move on.
01-17-2010, 11:32 AM   #10
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I don't really care about the $35 he is asking, but there is no way I will let anyone try to lie and rob me no matter if it's even a penny.

If the lens really had been damaged during shipping or was my fault in any way, I would have gladly offered him to return the lens for a refund. The fact is there is 100% zero chance that the damage in those photos happened during shipping.

I have asked him to send non-cropped photos of the lens and photos of the box. He ingored me and will not answer my request by either email or paypal message.

THE GOOD NEWS! I just got this from PayPal as I was typing this post: "The buyer cancelled this case and our investigation is now complete."

Excellent! It seems as if it's over and I have my proof that it was all just an attemtp to get a lower price after the sale. This is indeed the last time I list on eBay. I had the same thing happen last time with anoter person from China. This is part of the reason I never like to deal with anything overseas.
01-17-2010, 12:23 PM   #11
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Good for you - obviously the buyer thought he could get away with something - you threw up enough hurdles to make him lay off.
01-17-2010, 01:14 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Personal experience: A determined crook will always win.

The unfortunate truth is, you can ask for all the Serial Number photos you want; you could have taken all the pictures you wanted before shipping, and the buyer could still say, "You didn't ship me the lens you photographed."

IOW, the buyer could have a damaged copy of the lens you sold, fake photos of "removing it from the box," show the damaged lens as the one "you sent," and there is absolutely no way to prove the buyer is lying and you aren't (short of digging into EXIF time-of-photos in jpeg's). Even using EXIF you can't prove anything - you just make the buyer's story look more suspect.

A determined crook will always win at this game. The only question is how determined the buyer is, and how many hurdles you throw up to make the buyer jump over.

Personally, I'd offer the buyer $17.50 and move on.
Heh, you can do that to any situation.. doesn't mean the other side will take that exact path. And then theres that whole, fighting for the principle thing.

With that kind of cynicism, why do anything?

Reminds me of many board games where I realized I was going to lose in like 5+ moves and there was nothing I could do about it, only for the opponent to take a different path. What you gotta do is lay down some red herrings that will negate that solution for them.

Last edited by Eruditass; 01-17-2010 at 01:20 PM.
01-17-2010, 05:01 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by AlbertSiegel Quote
I don't really care about the $35 he is asking, but there is no way I will let anyone try to lie and rob me no matter if it's even a penny.

If the lens really had been damaged during shipping or was my fault in any way, I would have gladly offered him to return the lens for a refund. The fact is there is 100% zero chance that the damage in those photos happened during shipping.

I have asked him to send non-cropped photos of the lens and photos of the box. He ingored me and will not answer my request by either email or paypal message.

THE GOOD NEWS! I just got this from PayPal as I was typing this post: "The buyer cancelled this case and our investigation is now complete."

Excellent! It seems as if it's over and I have my proof that it was all just an attemtp to get a lower price after the sale. This is indeed the last time I list on eBay. I had the same thing happen last time with anoter person from China. This is part of the reason I never like to deal with anything overseas.
leave him a negative feedback stating "legitimate sellers beware". if you don't mind, can you disclose the name or ebay name of the scumbag thru pm? I just want to add him on the blacklist.
01-17-2010, 05:36 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
leave him a negative feedback stating "legitimate sellers beware". if you don't mind, can you disclose the name or ebay name of the scumbag thru pm? I just want to add him on the blacklist.
Sellers are unable to leave negative or neutral feedback.
01-17-2010, 05:45 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by wallyb Quote
Sellers are unable to leave negative or neutral feedback.
I guess that explains why the seller that sent me a dented camera (no dent on the description photos) and non-functional camera never left me feedback. I was a nice guy about it...neutral...even though I was stuck for the return postage.

Steve
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