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06-04-2012, 06:30 AM   #1
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Scanned 645 v. APS-C

Apologies if this question has been covered elsewhere but I've looked through some of the earlier threads and this precise question does not seem to have been asked.

I have been away from photography for years but I still have my old 35mm kit, including five SMC-M primes, one SMC-M zoom, two Vivitar MC primes and a Tamron SP zoom. I used to use these on ME-Super and MX bodies. I also owned, but sold about twenty years ago, a Mamiya 645 1000s with three prime lenses, which I used mainly for landscape and architecture shots. I am now returning to photography after a twenty year break and I am planning to buy a K-5 or K-30 body. However, I also have an opportunity to purchase a Mamiya 1000s and a couple of virtually mint comdition wide angle lenses. I had excellent results in the past with the 1000s using slow transparency film on a solid tripod with a cable release and the mirror locked up. If I buy the 1000s kit and use in the same way as before, say with Fuji Velvia 50, and scan with an Epson V750 pro, can I expect better results than I will get with a tripod-mounted K-5 and prime lens? By 'better' I mean sharper prints for magazine reproduction or exhibition (I live in hope!). BTW, what size will high res 645 scan files be?

06-04-2012, 08:19 AM   #2
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The resolution of MF film photos is still higher than that of digital, so in theory you'd get more detail. However, after you factor in inaccuracies in the exposure (that you could have detected and corrected via instant review on digital), IQ degradation after scanning, and the sheer time that it takes to scan photos, I'd say that in the long run digital is still going to be the way to go.

The scan resolution depends on the scanner, and again, in theory, can be pretty high.
06-04-2012, 09:11 AM   #3
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Scanning is the weak point in the film scenario, like Adam says.

There is also the question of cost vs quality: the trade off comes in how much film can you buy and have developed within the cost difference between the Mamiya kit and the K-5 kit? Another consideration: if you plan to re-sell later, there is more depreciation with the K-5.

Counterbalancing this: the K-5 is likely to be a more general-purpose camera that you'll use in situations you're unlikely to have a 1000s along.
06-04-2012, 09:54 AM   #4
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Thanks. I'm definitely going to buy the K-5 or K-30 with a general purpose or 'standard' zoom and also use it with my SMC-M lenses. I'm also planning a scanner purchase for several thousand colour transparencies. What I was wondering was if the 645 1000s would also be worth buying in addition for high quality landscape shots. There seems to be plenty of M645 kit around so I think I'll buy the digital body and use that for a while before deciding on the medium format.

06-04-2012, 12:21 PM   #5
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Out of interest, I used my K5 and D-FA 100mm Macro to photograph some of my 645 negs (taken with a Mamiya 645-J) from 30 yrs ago. A quick invert and some increase in contrast....
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06-04-2012, 01:01 PM   #6
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scanning is as pointed out the weak spot. For flatbeds a V750 with Vuescan and betterimaging holders is the best low cost scenario (well under a grand cost anyway)
A nikon 9000 scanner will be better but only available used and well over 2 grand
ultimately an imacon is the best but you may as well just by a 645D unless you have a lot of old MF to scan as well

My method for MF is scan for proof on my flatbed. If I find an image i really want to print for exhibition then i rent time on an imacon setup to get the file i need (a few local pro shops here have the option. You can also send the one offs out for high end scans (not cheap but once again for an exhibition quality worth it IMO)

A fully resolved imacon or drum scan from a sharp higher res film like velvia (or better still panf and the other high res b/w) exceeds not only apsc but FF (D800e maybe being the exception) If you move up to a 6x7 or 6x9 medium format system then you really would need to go to a very high end medium format system to come close to equaling what is possible with the right scan form those films (a 645D pano stitched though using the 55 kit lens to give the same area as a 6x9 or 6x12 neg would come damn close, and be a lot easier to integrate into workflow)


EDIT - I'll point out that Plustek has a very interesting looking medium format scanner coming (that also does 35mm) reputed to come out at 1000-1200
http://plustek.com/mea/products/opticfilm-series/opticfilm-120/introduction.html

I've got my Eye on this one because it may well be "good enough" for all but the largest prints
06-04-2012, 04:23 PM   #7
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How about scanned 35mm v. APS-C . . .

12233 Resolution Chart arranged 4 high X 4 wide and provided 100% crops at 100% JPEG quality.
  1. Using the same Pentax M 50mm F4 macro lens, I took a shot of the reschart with my LX using Kodak Techpan scanned with my Coolscan at 4000dpi and a shoot with my K20D (14.6MP).
  2. I also used the K20D+Pentax M 50mm F4 macro lens to take a 1:1 macro shot of this same frame of film.
  3. Using the K20D+Autobellows+Pentax M 50mm F4 macro lens I then took about a 4.5X magnification of the center area marked with a red rectangle which is approximately equivalent to >8000dpi scan.
I marked with red arrows where two lines are being resolved. The Coolscan has more resolution across the vertical axis as the horizontal axis is controlled by the stepper motor.



Link to full res image -> http://www.fototime.com/1F7747A69031070/orig.jpg

  • Of course, medium format film grow linearly and the resolution therefore increases proportionately.
  • Taking a DSLR shot of 35mm is less then taking a DSLR shot of the actual target.
  • Taking a DSLR shot of medium format film decreases proportionately.


06-04-2012, 07:34 PM   #8
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Digital makes life easier and is faster and gives that on a smaller system. Theses are the differences to me.
Instant review, HDR, PP for highlights/shadows, Dodge/Burn, etc all are easier and faster on digital.
For resolution, I think both are well able to make it for magazine sized prints.
However, personally, the 8R prints I've made with my RB67 has been the nicest I've ever printed for that size (beats all that I've taken with my DSLRs).


Metering and instant review can be sort of replicated with film cams by taking a preview shot with a digi cam that shows EXIF info.


To me, scanning is a pain. I can't be bothered nowadays with a scanner. The need to be careful with dust, film height, long scan times is too much for my schedules.
I digitize it nowadays with my K5 and 100/2.8 macro and they are very decent for most purposes.
If I find a print worth the effort/cost, I will print it.


At the end for me, the MF cameras are just not for everyday use (too big and slow).
More of a side hobby when I can take my time and setup the shots. Beautiful results on print.

I'd suggest going 'dual system'
06-04-2012, 09:01 PM   #9
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Couple film's considerable latitude advantage over any digital, it is usually not needed to play with highlights/shadows in post.



Link to larger res -> http://www.fototime.com/3EDD4D13204247B/orig.jpg


But of course use shadows/highlights on the already wide latitude and you will have much more room to post process.



Link to larger res ->
http://www.fototime.com/DCE615918D77901/orig.jpg


Any challenge in post processing film is just a minor learning curve. Fully automatic stitching from fully automatic scans of four frames of film is only a few clicks away.



Link to larger res ->
http://www.fototime.com/AF9F7B335AA39A5/orig.jpg

To your point, it is all a matter of personal choices. We spend our money however we want to. Likely either is capable of delivering more then we need
06-04-2012, 10:07 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by Stupot1 Quote
Apologies if this question has been covered elsewhere but I've looked through some of the earlier threads and this precise question does not seem to have been asked.

I have been away from photography for years but I still have my old 35mm kit, including five SMC-M primes, one SMC-M zoom, two Vivitar MC primes and a Tamron SP zoom. I used to use these on ME-Super and MX bodies. I also owned, but sold about twenty years ago, a Mamiya 645 1000s with three prime lenses, which I used mainly for landscape and architecture shots. I am now returning to photography after a twenty year break and I am planning to buy a K-5 or K-30 body. However, I also have an opportunity to purchase a Mamiya 1000s and a couple of virtually mint comdition wide angle lenses. I had excellent results in the past with the 1000s using slow transparency film on a solid tripod with a cable release and the mirror locked up. If I buy the 1000s kit and use in the same way as before, say with Fuji Velvia 50, and scan with an Epson V750 pro, can I expect better results than I will get with a tripod-mounted K-5 and prime lens? By 'better' I mean sharper prints for magazine reproduction or exhibition (I live in hope!). BTW, what size will high res 645 scan files be?
In your situation I would put my money into good digital gear first. While in theory you should get somewhat sharper prints form 645 than from a 15MP digital, in practice a well-made print from a digital will look just fine hanging on a wall with a print from a 645. I am comfortable making prints to 24x30 inches from my K20. Note that I use vrey sharp lenses and fairly sophisticated sharpening methods.

I also scan and print 6x7 film. Yes, the 6x7 images have better resolution, but the digital stuff looks great too. Scanning is time-consuming and requires substantial knowledge and patience to produce quaility that exceeds that of,say, a K-5. It's a lot easier to get nice colour from digital cameras than from scanning.

I find scanning relatively easy because I've been doing it in large quantities for 20 years. One thing to bear in mind is that scanning software is dumb. When I scan, my goal is to work around that dumbness by producing scans that are appropriate for correction with proper imaging software. You have to get basics right. No clipping, no sharpening artifacts, decent but not necessarily perfect colour balance and tonal rendition. Post-processing (as it is termed now) is where the real skills are required. There are people who believe that the goal of scanning ought to be to produce finished images, and are happy when they think they have done so. Unfortuantely, most of those people do not know what a really good scanned image looks like.

As a beginner my guess is that you'll get better images from a K-5 than from scanned 645.

So, I suggest that you start with a good digital camera and learn the post-processing skills that are common to both scanned images and digital camera files. Then decide for yourself whether you really want to take on film.

I may have to get out of medium format in the next year or two due to health issues (can't carry a heavy tripod very far). Much as I like film, I'm not panicking because digital is so good these days.

You might want to wait and see what Pentax comes out with in the next year or so. I think a 24MP sensor could be serious competition for 645.

Good luck!

John

Last edited by John Poirier; 06-04-2012 at 10:17 PM.
06-05-2012, 07:11 AM   #11
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Re: Scanned 645 v. APS-C

I still shoot with my 645NIIs quite a bit and get very good scans with an Epson V700. A typical scan is ~ 39 Mpix and I get excellent prints at 20x16 or larger.

It is, however, time consuming at the least. If I had a 645D I think my film use would be limited to B&W.

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06-05-2012, 07:40 AM   #12
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I think a full frame DSLR would be closer to medium format, and used ones are becoming more affordable. But as you have a few M lenses, I would suggest the K30 as the best value solution at the moment - the focus peaking will make the lenses much more usable.

(I haven't brought up the 645d, because although I think it would definitely at least equal medium format film, it's extremely expensive!)
06-05-2012, 10:57 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
The resolution of MF film photos is still higher than that of digital, so in theory you'd get more detail.
For black and white yes but not when you compare colour, here is way.
Clumps and Chumps

Shootout between Canon EOS 1Ds (2002) and Pentax 67II
I think it's quite safe to say that current APS-C camera's have surpass the FF camera's from 2002.
Shootout
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