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10-05-2012, 11:38 AM   #1
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Help with chemicals

Hi,
I've recently dug out an old 35mm camera and quite fancy learning about the darkroom.
My grandfather used to do his own B+W prints and still has all the kit for deep tank developing. However, he can't remember which chemicals he used to use(except that the brand Ilford rings a bell). I have been trying to work out which to buy but I'm finding it somewhat confusing. For example, most of the paper developers say they can be used for tray/dish developing, but no mention of tank. Can any fixer and stopbath be used with any developer?

Im sure the answers are pretty obvious, but any help working out how to chose chemicals that will work well together would be appreciated.

10-05-2012, 11:52 AM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by wurbledood Quote
Hi,
I've recently dug out an old 35mm camera and quite fancy learning about the darkroom.
My grandfather used to do his own B+W prints and still has all the kit for deep tank developing. However, he can't remember which chemicals he used to use(except that the brand Ilford rings a bell). I have been trying to work out which to buy but I'm finding it somewhat confusing. For example, most of the paper developers say they can be used for tray/dish developing, but no mention of tank. Can any fixer and stopbath be used with any developer?

Im sure the answers are pretty obvious, but any help working out how to chose chemicals that will work well together would be appreciated.
There is film developing (negatives, done in a tank, usually) and paper developing (the prints, in a tray) -- not the same chemical (generally). There must a guide somewhere on the internet that goes through all the steps?
10-05-2012, 12:09 PM   #3
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Its not so much the process, its more how to choose the chemicals in the first place. So say if I had an Ilford developer should that be used with Ilford stopbath and fixer,to get the best results?
Would certain chemicals be better for someone in my position (easier to work with) who doesn't have any prior experience?
I will spend a bit more time searching the web for more info, but I was kinda hoping someone would be able to say from experience which chemicals play nicely together (being a little lazy I guess!)
10-05-2012, 01:04 PM - 1 Like   #4
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PM sent with some info.

Basically you will need in this order

1. Developer
2. Stop bath
3. Hypo or fixer
4. Archival wash / Permawash
5. A wetting agent for drying film.

There are many developers out there and they have their +/-'s. Illford's products are supposed to be good, I've not used them. A lot depends on what you can get a hold of. If your lucky your camera store may carry what you need.

I began several years ago using Lauder Chemical products. I've changed developers of late and now use Rodinal and also Kodak HC-110 for developers. Developers are usually a mix and use once deal, while stop bath and fixer are multiple use deals and you can get them in concentrates usually. Permawash is a mix and use once too. (keep in mind that I'm being very general here).

That should get you headed in the right direction.


Last edited by blackcloudbrew; 10-05-2012 at 01:12 PM.
10-05-2012, 06:07 PM   #5
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In the Los Angeles area the place to go to for students especially is Freestyle Photo. One of the few places where you can still buy darkroom supplies. Some of the large camera stores in the area still carry darkroom supplies. They sell kits which have almost all the chemicals you need except perhaps the hypo clearing agent (archival wash).

Freestyle Photographic Supplies - Traditional Black & White Film, Paper, Chemicals, Holgas and ULF

Many of the stops and fixes can be used with both film and paper. It can depend on the film and paper as well as the chemicals.

Note some B & W film needs a specific developer. At one time some of the Ilford films used C-41 (color) developer.

Developing color negatives and slide are even possible but require much more rigid temperature controls.

You can probably find a good book on basic darkroom techniques in the public library.
10-05-2012, 09:23 PM - 1 Like   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by wurbledood Quote
Its not so much the process, its more how to choose the chemicals in the first place. So say if I had an Ilford developer should that be used with Ilford stopbath and fixer,to get the best results?
You can mix brands of chemicals with no problem. I've used Kodak developers with Ilford fixer, Rodinal and Ilford developers with Kodak fixers, etc. The type of developer and your technique make a big difference, but for the most part the fixer doesn't (except in cases where a specific film requires a hardening fixer, but this is a film/fixer situation, not a developer/fixer situation).

For what it's worth, I've never used a stop bath with film. I just do a water rinse for 30 seconds. But if you're making wet prints, you'll definitely need a stop bath. But again, I've never noticed a difference with various brands of stop bath or fixer in the darkroom. I've always used Dektol for my paper developer, so I don't have any experience with other paper developers.

QuoteOriginally posted by wurbledood Quote
Would certain chemicals be better for someone in my position (easier to work with) who doesn't have any prior experience?
If you don't have a problem mixing chemicals from powder, I always recommend Tri-X developed in D76. It's a classic combination, and you'll have a lot of leeway. If you're a little off in your developing technique, you'll still come up with usable results.

Hope this helps. The main thing is to have fun with it and see what you like!
10-08-2012, 11:35 AM   #7
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+1 on D76, too vanilla for some but you're unlikely to ever find a film that won't have D76 instructions. (Ilford and others make D76 clones). There is an advantage to using some of the liquid concentrate developers, where you mix your working solution just before putting it in the tank, for someone starting out. And like others have said, you can mix and match the brands....

Do you have an enlarger? If not, a hybrid work flow will get you started: develop the film and scan it. Once you have a darkroom and enlarger etc you can branch out. Darkroom print work is a real time consumer...

So for 35mm film you need:
tank and reel
scissors and a bottle opener or similar to open the cartridge
a dark place or changing bag
large enough graduated cylinder to measure out your chemicals for the tank
thermometer
some way to measure time (a cheap digital kitchen timer works great, as does the timer on your microwave)
some 1 liter bottles (for the fixer, mostly, but you can buy D76 in liter size mix) and a funnel to pour the fixer back in
running water
wetting agent / photo flo
some kind of clips to hang the film to dry

The process itself is simple, imprecision by iteself won't ruin things most of the time - what you get with precision is repeatability. But if your mixes are a bit off, your times and temps, you will still get results

Develper, agitation sequence. Pour the develper away.
You don't need stop bath, pour water in the tank, agitate a while and pour it out
Put in the fixer, agitate... when time is up, pour the fixer back in bottle (keep track of how many films you've fixed, after about 6 it is time to mix a new batch) (also, depending on your patience, you might want 'rapid' fixer which works in 4 minutes or less, vs regular fixer which goes for 8-10 minutes)
Then, you can do Ilford's washing method:
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/200629163442455.pdf

The version I do: fill and dump, fill invert 5 and dump, fill invert 10 and dump, fill invert 15 and dump three times

Now you take the tank top off, and use a dropper (get from drug store, or repurpose nose drop bottle) for a drop of wetting agent... etc etc.

10-10-2012, 03:48 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wilson Quote
...
For what it's worth, I've never used a stop bath with film. I just do a water rinse for 30 seconds.
...
If you're going to stop with water, I'd recommend a rapid fill, couple shakes, drain and repeat or 5 or 6 tank fills. Some of the staining/tanning developers require water for a stop bath and that is their procedure.

Last edited by tuco; 10-19-2012 at 06:09 PM.
10-11-2012, 12:30 PM   #9
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Thanks guys, really helpful.
When i go to visit my grandfather at christmas I will have access to his enlarger (if it still works!) Although I will be looking to develop a few films before then so I have something to play with
Im really looking forward to giving this a go now!
10-11-2012, 08:27 PM   #10
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Here's a video I made that goes from loading film to hanging the finished product in 29 minutes.

10-12-2012, 01:38 AM   #11
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A tip for loading film on the type of reel seen in the video. Cut a small 45° chamfer on the edges of the film. It can help the problematic start of the reel loading. And don't cut off as much film on the end as shown. Cut just the minium to get a square edge. The first wrap on the reel can be the problem child. The more blank negative on the first wrap the better.

Then after each 360° wrap on the reel, push the film back and forth a little bit. You can feel it sliding in the coils of the reel if it's not binding. If all the film slides freely at the last warp, you can be confident there is a good gap and a slim chance of film touching.

And anyone that has a bathroom without a window, toss the dark bag aside and use the large, confortable space of the bathroom to load the film. Stuff a towel under the door and pin up a dark cloth over it. And a shower curtain rod comes in handy if you have one.

I would not recommend that developer agitation profile shown in the video. It is contrary to the recommend agitation profile given for D76. You want to avoid laminar flow. Smooth, gentle agitations can cause that. The method he shows looks like what is typically done for stand development in Rodinal.

When you are using a development time from published source such as Kodak, for example, that time is a function of how you agitate the film to some degree. For the same film and development time, one developed with a gentle agitation profile will be developed less than one developed using a more aggressive and vigorous profile.

Last edited by tuco; 10-19-2012 at 06:05 PM.
10-14-2012, 10:45 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by wurbledood Quote
Hi,
...all the kit for deep tank developing.
Do you mean 'deep' tank or 'small' tank?

There are developers suited to 'deep' tanks (generally requires replenishment techniques to be used to maintain the developer in a suitable state) but some developers would not be suitable for such usage.
10-16-2012, 12:01 PM   #13
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I was told deep tank, but I haven't actually seen the kit and its been a while since I spoke to him so haven't been able to check.
Hopefully it won't be to long till I get the chance to ask though!
10-16-2012, 01:00 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by wurbledood Quote
I was told deep tank, but I haven't actually seen the kit and its been a while since I spoke to him so haven't been able to check.
Hopefully it won't be to long till I get the chance to ask though!
Deep tank is generally used for sheet films. The sheets are placed in frames and lowered into the tank. Most 35mm and roll film development by hobbiests uses a small "daylight" tank with capacity appropriate for a single roll of film.


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10-19-2012, 02:34 PM - 1 Like   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nesster Quote
+1 on D76, too vanilla for some but you're unlikely to ever find a film that won't have D76 instructions. (Ilford and others make D76 clones). There is an advantage to using some of the liquid concentrate developers, where you mix your working solution just before putting it in the tank, for someone starting out. And like others have said, you can mix and match the brands....

Do you have an enlarger? If not, a hybrid work flow will get you started: develop the film and scan it. Once you have a darkroom and enlarger etc you can branch out. Darkroom print work is a real time consumer...

So for 35mm film you need:
tank and reel
scissors and a bottle opener or similar to open the cartridge
a dark place or changing bag
large enough graduated cylinder to measure out your chemicals for the tank
thermometer
some way to measure time (a cheap digital kitchen timer works great, as does the timer on your microwave)
some 1 liter bottles (for the fixer, mostly, but you can buy D76 in liter size mix) and a funnel to pour the fixer back in
running water
wetting agent / photo flo
some kind of clips to hang the film to dry

The process itself is simple, imprecision by iteself won't ruin things most of the time - what you get with precision is repeatability. But if your mixes are a bit off, your times and temps, you will still get results

Develper, agitation sequence. Pour the develper away.
You don't need stop bath, pour water in the tank, agitate a while and pour it out
Put in the fixer, agitate... when time is up, pour the fixer back in bottle (keep track of how many films you've fixed, after about 6 it is time to mix a new batch) (also, depending on your patience, you might want 'rapid' fixer which works in 4 minutes or less, vs regular fixer which goes for 8-10 minutes)
Then, you can do Ilford's washing method:
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/200629163442455.pdf

The version I do: fill and dump, fill invert 5 and dump, fill invert 10 and dump, fill invert 15 and dump three times

Now you take the tank top off, and use a dropper (get from drug store, or repurpose nose drop bottle) for a drop of wetting agent... etc etc.
If I may add just a little to Nesster's excellent suggestions:

Ansel Adams used wooden spring clothespins to hold the film for drying. Cheap, and the wooden jaws grip the film without the punctures some of the expensive metal clips produce. Use the money saved for more film!

If you're using Paterson reels they must be BONE dry to load. A hair dryer will do the job. Stainless steel can be loaded wet, or so the legend goes. I've never tried.

I am able to darken a bathroom enough to load film. How dark? If you can't see your hand in front of your face in 5 or 10 minutes (set a timer!) you're good to go. A few tiny pinpoints of light seem to have no effect, and perhaps you can stand between them and the film.

BTW, if you peel off the adhesive tape (if used, some film is held in a slot) which holds the film to the spool you may get a suprising bluish-white discharge of...static electricity? I don't know, but it has never caused a problem in many decades of souping film.

Put ALL the items you'll need to load the reel in a 16 x 20 developing tray, or something similar to keep them together. You REALLY don't want to explore the floor or even the counter trying to find the tank lid, or even, heaven forbid, the FILM! Been there, done that, stay away! Amazing how big a darkroom is, in the dark.

Practice loading the tank with a junk roll in the light, and then in the dark before you do the real thing. Please.

Its my understanding that while the same fixer can be used for either film or paper, don't use the same bottle for both. So, two separate bottles. LABEL EVERYTHING! I'm sure all of us have horror tales of using the wrong chemical at the wrong time, I know I do.

Or opening a loaded tank, set aside for later processing and NOT labeled with masking tape or similar and marked...don't even ask!
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