[pathdoc]

Okay, so on my recent trip to Toronto I went into a camera store and was struck by the sight of a Lloyds type bulk loader, new on shelf, and reloadable cassettes! I decided it was now or never, took the plunge and bought one of the first and a pack of the other.

I didn't buy any film right then and there, because I wanted to do my research, and because I knew B&H had some competitive bargains which even with cross-border and shipping fees would blow the locals away (sorry, Canada, but it's true). And because Tmax and TriX are fiendishly, fiendishly expensive by the 100ft when compared to the competition.

Bearing in mind that:

1) The developer of choice will be CAFFENOL...
2) The fixer will probably be Ilford Rapid Fix (I have grown fond of the liquid chemistry thing)
3) Economy, in relative terms, is the aim...

I am looking at B&H's selection of 100ft rolls right now, and seeing that Kentmere 400 is currently the lowest price - $39.95 per 100ft (all prices US$).

Next is Arista EDU 100 at $40.99 - I see from images of the cannister in which it comes that this is made in the Czech Republic, so it is probably rebranded Fomapan.

I have heard that Caffenol does not play well with fast films, but OTOH it did well with Fomapan 200, and that film was very pleasant to put on the Patterson tank reels & gave results I found nice. OTOH I have seen someone's results on line with stand development of Kentmere 400 in one of the brominated Caffenols, so I know it can be made to work (and what better system for trying it out without too much risk or waste than short-loaded bulk rolls).

Kentmere 100, oddly enough, is more expensive than its faster brother, though only by $3 per hundred feet.

Arista 200 is about $44/100ft and if this really is Fomapan under a different name then this stuff would be a known quantity, almost worth paying a premium for, as I already have a Caffenol workflow for Foma 200.

By the time we get to Tmax 100, the price has about doubled - $84.95/100' - but Tmax is not only expensive but hard on fixer, and that's another good reason to give it the flick. For TriX 400 add another $20/roll, and another $20 on top of THAT for Tmax 400.

I am not paying three times as much per 100ft for a film that eats its way through fixer like a bulimic at a buffet restaurant and causes me to say the F word every time I put it on a Patterson reel, and whose behaviour in Caffenol is still a mystery to me (but I have my next roll set aside to try just that). If Arista or Kentmere are anywhere near as good for casual use, I'm going hell for leather for the cheap stuff, baby.

Anyone shot and home-brewed both and can give me their thoughts?

[blacklite]

I don't bulk load but I use Arista EDU Ultra 200 and Caffenol and get good results. I believe is rebranded Fomapan 200.

[pathdoc]

I use Arista EDU Ultra 200 and Caffenol and get good results.

I get a sepia-ish tone with mine which is not unpleasant and indeed has a certain vintage charm (as if everything is 1920), but I still wonder how others get a perfect black-and-white. If you don't mind me asking, what are your fixation times and inversion routine?

[leekil]

I would suggest your first criteria would be what kind of film do you like the results of, rather than price. If you don't like the way that (say) Arista film comes out with your process, then you would be better off with a more expensive film, if you like how it looks. Maybe some more experimentation is in order before committing to a bulk roll.

The Tmax 400 bulk roll, on B&H, weirdly seems to be more expensive than just buying individual rolls. The Tmax 100 looks to be the opposite, in a bulk-to-individual-roll comparison.

[pathdoc]

Maybe some more experimentation is in order before committing to a bulk roll.

My problem is that if I buy a roll here, a roll there I need to do it by ordering in off the web - AFAIK there isn't a physical store within TWO HUNDRED MILES of me that sells B&W film. It gets expensive on a per-roll basis.

At the end of the day, what I want is to be able to shove the film in a tank, pour in chemicals, do the hokey pokey and turn about (so to speak), and have properly exposed images come out when I've finished the rinse. Much of the rest comes out of the way it's digitised, and while that's still a work in progress I'm making great leaps in my digitisation workflow. I've currently got a roll of Tmax 400 in my Spotmatic F that I'm going to sacrifice to the Coffee Gods (Caffenol), but like I said, one of the things about Tmax films is that they're hard on fixer - and that's another one of those things I have to order in at HUGE expense compared to other photographers, because I live on an island and ground shipping at some point is obliged to become sea or air freight.

At the very least I have found a way to rid myself of the expense of developer.

[clickclick]

Given that you indicate you'd like to just pour and do the Hokey Pokey, have you thought about D-76 with the Arista EDU? I've started playing with that combo and getting good results. Bought both from Freestyle.

[pathdoc]

have you thought about D-76 with the Arista EDU?

I've used D-76 and like it a lot. It's one of those developers which will never lead anybody really wrong - it may not give the BEST results all the time with all films, but it can always be relied on to give GOOD results. The problem is that my work responsibilities (being on call means I might have to drop everything) mean I sometimes don't finish a film & can't develop for weeks at a stretch, and I started to run into the issue of stale chemistry. Buying the small packs is hideously uneconomical on a pack for pack basis and buying the large one introduces the staleness issue; I can't use it fast enough!

The other problem is bringing the chemistry to the right temperature - I find working with Ilford syrups and Caffenol easier because I can pour out a HUGE bucket of water to 20 degrees celsius and then mix up developer and fixer on the spot; adding the small amount of concentrate doesn't change the temperature noticeably. My basement can run hot in summer, near freezing in winter, and I've sometimes spent more time and effort on getting the temperatures right than I have actually developing the film. I have considered buying a very cheap fish tank and a temperature regulator to do that job!! Set it running as soon as I get home; go down and start developing once the kids are in bed...

Overall, Caffenol has the advantage that the ingredients keep essentially forever and are dirt cheap (the vitamin C powder bottle was not, but the amount used per roll is very small), and can be made up on a per-use basis without staleness concerns.

Being in Canada means that I have to choose my US purchases carefully.

[jcdoss]

Try something cheap at first. Kentmere 400 is pretty good and develops well with caffenol (I used CCL stand process). But by the end, you might be sick of B/W. If so, and you want to try c41 color neg development and you're confident with your rolling abilities, Kodak Vision3 250D is looking good to me. After I run out of whatevers in my freezer, that's my next stop.

[clickclick]

I've used D-76 and like it a lot. It's one of those developers which will never lead anybody really wrong - it may not give the BEST results all the time with all films, but it can always be relied on to give GOOD results. The problem is that my work responsibilities (being on call means I might have to drop everything) mean I sometimes don't finish a film & can't develop for weeks at a stretch, and I started to run into the issue of stale chemistry. Buying the small packs is hideously uneconomical on a pack for pack basis and buying the large one introduces the staleness issue; I can't use it fast enough!

The other problem is bringing the chemistry to the right temperature - I find working with Ilford syrups and Caffenol easier because I can pour out a HUGE bucket of water to 20 degrees celsius and then mix up developer and fixer on the spot; adding the small amount of concentrate doesn't change the temperature noticeably. My basement can run hot in summer, near freezing in winter, and I've sometimes spent more time and effort on getting the temperatures right than I have actually developing the film. I have considered buying a very cheap fish tank and a temperature regulator to do that job!! Set it running as soon as I get home; go down and start developing once the kids are in bed...

Overall, Caffenol has the advantage that the ingredients keep essentially forever and are dirt cheap (the vitamin C powder bottle was not, but the amount used per roll is very small), and can be made up on a per-use basis without staleness concerns.

Being in Canada means that I have to choose my US purchases carefully.

Yep - hear you on all fronts. I've kept using D-76 for just the reason you describe. Started using it in the 70's, and I've always been pretty pleased. Kinda a no-brainer goto developer. Ilford ID11 is another that comes to mind as a "cant go wrong" developer too.

I also don't shoot as much film as I need to keep the chemicals fresh, so I've gone to buying the packets to mix a gallon and weighing out quantities for mixing just a quart at a time. When I was doing color slides, I used to fill a plastic tub with water, place the chemical's containers into the tub, and use an aquarium heater to stabilize the water temperature. It won't help in a too hot scenario, but works great when it gets cool out.

I'm honestly just learning about the caffenol. Sounds like an interesting/neat solution (sorry, couldn't resist the bad pun....)

[G and T]

I am looking at B&H's selection of 100ft rolls right now, and seeing that Kentmere 400 is currently the lowest price

I'm going hell for leather for the cheap stuff, baby.

I get a sepia-ish tone with mine which is not unpleasant and indeed has a certain vintage charm (as if everything is 1920), but I still wonder how others get a perfect black-and-white.

I've used D-76 and like it a lot.

Kentmere is made by Harman with the same QC that they give to their other films,Ilford etc, so it may be cheap in cost but not in quality. I find Kentmere to be a reliable film that gives me its best results souped in stock ID11 (D76 should be comparable) and has an added bonus of being extremely easy to load and dries as flat as a pancake.
The sepia tone you are getting in Caffenol can be toned down by changing fixers, an acid fixer will reduce the stain the most.
Glenn

[pathdoc]

Kentmere is made by Harman with the same QC that they give to their other films,Ilford etc, so it may be cheap in cost but not in quality.

This is what I have generally heard everywhere; that whatever your preference for a certain "look" from a given emulsion may be, Kentmere is at the very least reliable, quality film. I like what you have to say about its handling on the reels and after.

The sepia tone you are getting in Caffenol can be toned down by changing fixers, an acid fixer will reduce the stain the most.

My local options (that I can order in online without horrendous cost) basically boil down to Kodak Professional Fixer (as the powder, mixed up) or Ilford Rapid Fix. As soon as school goes back in September, I will be inquiring of the high school chemistry teachers where I might be able to source sodium or ammonium thiosulphate locally and give up importing fixer entirely. Until then, I have considered adding a splash of household vinegar to the water stop bath to acidify it a little. Do you think this would help?

[G and T]

I have considered adding a splash of household vinegar to the water stop bath to acidify it a little. Do you think this would help?

I have never tried vinegar but my brother who is a big Caffenol fan uses citric acid or even lemon juice to bleach his negatives.
Glenn

[pathdoc]

my brother who is a big Caffenol fan uses citric acid or even lemon juice to bleach his negatives

Could I possibly prevail upon you to ask him how much of what, and when in the process?

[G and T]

I have never tried vinegar but my brother who is a big Caffenol fan uses citric acid or even lemon juice to bleach his negatives.

Could I possibly prevail upon you to ask him how much of what, and when in the process?

I asked my brother and he has told me he puts one teaspoon (5gms) of citric acid in his stop bath which he agitates for 2 minutes.
Glenn

[ChrisPlatt]

If lowest cost is the primary consideration I'd probably choose Kentmere 400 as well.
As with any film with experience you can tweak processing to get the look you like best.

Chris