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05-09-2018, 08:51 PM   #1
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Folded 120 negative

I've come across another envelope of old B&W 120 format family negatives from the 30's. One has about an inch of the negative folded over.

The image is a portrait orientation photo of two people with a permanent crease around their shoulder height. I've tried to gently pry open the fold, but I'm concerned that I will either crack the negative or introduce another crease at the fold.

I'm thinking of carefully cutting it at the fold with a razor knife, scanning the pieces and stitching.

Is that a totally nutty/bad idea, or does anyone have another suggestion?

I'm more concerned about getting a good final image than preserving the negative intact as a historical document.

05-09-2018, 09:46 PM   #2
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Find a conservator. They would be able to provide suggestions to deal with this problem.


Steve
05-09-2018, 10:30 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by YeOldePentaxian Quote
I'm thinking of carefully cutting it at the fold with a razor knife, scanning the pieces and stitching.
Is that a totally nutty/bad idea, or does anyone have another suggestion?
That might not give you the result you want, or could be difficult to do properly.
You really need 20-30% overlap for a trouble free stitch.

Cheers,
Terry
05-09-2018, 11:28 PM   #4
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Certainly, advice of a trained person is best, but if an absence of same, perhaps gentle warming while gradually opening a wedge--perhaps after starting in warm water,** adding a glass plate to give longer term (restorative) normal force. I also think cutting it will be counterproductive, as you will not have anything to grab onto to uncurl the edge.
____
** I don't develop negatives, so don't know what are the limits on warm water/elevated temperature affecting the deposited image, and what are the streaking/spotting considerations--but would expect others to be able to address these.

05-10-2018, 01:41 AM - 1 Like   #5
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If the negatives are from the 30s they are likely to be cellulose nitrate based so care should be taken in handling and storing these. The material is unstable, flammable, and can give out various noxious substances. Some common names for cellulose nitrate (nitrocellulose) are: guncotton, flash paper, flash cotton.

Cellulose Nitrate Negatives | archivesalberta
5.1 A Short Guide to Film Base Photographic Materials: Identification, Care, and Duplication ? NEDCC
https://www.nps.gov/museum/publications/conserveogram/14-08.pdf
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&ved=0ahUKEwj...VQBkrifhY-v5UZ
05-10-2018, 07:32 AM   #6
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I don't think it's entirely crazy to consider cutting the negative and splicing the bits back in Photoshop. So long as your break doesn't go through key facial features (I think you said shoulder height) then some skill in editing should make the final result pretty seamless.


I've done weirder things. I was given an old print that had parts of the emulsion missing. An old photo of a man in a boxing pose had one hand missing, and parts of his face. I was able to fix up the face, but for the hand I ended up duplicating the lighting, and photographing my own hand. Scaled and blurred a bit, I was able to graft it into place. I could sort of tell it was my own hand in the photo, but the woman I was doing it for was delighted I had resurrected the pic.
05-10-2018, 08:02 AM   #7
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Try soaking it in water for a while and hang to dry.

05-10-2018, 08:08 AM   #8
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I would advise against the cutting operation since it basically adds damage to the original. I would check with your Provence museum (if you have one) as they probably employ someone skilled in treating issues like yours (or they could direct you to an expert). It should be possible to straighten the negative, given the proper process, though you might be facing some minor retouching right at the area of the fold since emulsion damage is likely there.
05-10-2018, 08:53 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by dms Quote
** I don't develop negatives, so don't know what are the limits on warm water/elevated temperature affecting the deposited image
The emulsion is gelatin with some chemical "tanning" applied during fixation. It is likely to slough off in warm water.


Steve
05-10-2018, 10:41 AM   #10
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Take the film to a conservator. Safe to suspect the film Cellulose Nitrate, its manufacture continued in the 40's and even 50's


QuoteQuote:
Cellulose nitrate film is extremely dangerous. It catches fire very easily and once
alight is difficult to put out. Fires involving cellulose nitrate burn extremely quickly
with a hot, intense flame and the smoke is particularly toxic, containing large
quantities of poisonous gases.
Any cellulose nitrate film that you come across now will be extremely old. This is a
problem because the high fire risk from cellulose nitrate film increases as it ages.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg469.pdf


Just be careful and play safe
05-16-2018, 10:01 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by TonyW Quote
Take the film to a conservator. Safe to suspect the film Cellulose Nitrate, its manufacture continued in the 40's and even 50's




http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg469.pdf


Just be careful and play safe
I think you are over selling this a bit. The Wikipedia page you should be linking to is for celluloid, not guncotton.
Celluloid - Wikipedia

Yes, celluloid film is far more flammable than acetate film, but that doesn’t mean run in fear from it. The big concern with celluloid film is in prints of movies, specifically playing them, not a strip of still image negatives. A few negatives in an envelope are not going to spontaneously combust.

I realize that your intent was to promote safety, but by overstating the hazards of celluloid film you are spreading FUD, this time at the risk of old family negatives being disposed of in waves. This is the internet after all, and the internet loves to get excited about random things.

Now as far as the folded negative is concerned, I agree that speaking with a professional is a very good idea, and that cutting is a very bad idea. Old negatives, even acetate ones, can be very brittle. Therefore the water bath sounds like a good idea, but I’m hardly an expert on that one. I would definitely caution that warm water should mean not much warmer than around 80 degrees Fahrenheit. Much over 80 degrees even modern emulsions start getting very soft.
05-17-2018, 11:01 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steve Beswick Quote
I think you are over selling this a bit. The Wikipedia page you should be linking to is for celluloid, not guncotton.
Celluloid - Wikipedia

Yes, celluloid film is far more flammable than acetate film, but that doesn’t mean run in fear from it. The big concern with celluloid film is in prints of movies, specifically playing them, not a strip of still image negatives. A few negatives in an envelope are not going to spontaneously combust.

I realize that your intent was to promote safety, but by overstating the hazards of celluloid film you are spreading FUD, this time at the risk of old family negatives being disposed of in waves. This is the internet after all, and the internet loves to get excited about random things.

Now as far as the folded negative is concerned, I agree that speaking with a professional is a very good idea, and that cutting is a very bad idea. Old negatives, even acetate ones, can be very brittle. Therefore the water bath sounds like a good idea, but I’m hardly an expert on that one. I would definitely caution that warm water should mean not much warmer than around 80 degrees Fahrenheit. Much over 80 degrees even modern emulsions start getting very soft.
I disagree with your assesment of my post and your strange assertion that I am somehow spreading FUD.

The page I linked is correct (yours is not as relevant or informative!) and from the UK Health and Safety executive and while it may be seen to be applicable to large collections the principles outlined are sound.

The issue here is twofold the film type/base itself and dealing with the fold.

First the film, we really do not know if it is cellulose nitrate or safety film cellulose triacetate a plastic base. The former was used at least in professional film until around the early 1950's.

The HSE document linked to was not to cause FUD but to help the OP identify the film. Rather this than be complacent IMHO!

The only film that I have seen that I am sure of being cellulose nitrate has been old X -Ray film; brown and blistered surface. Which was carefully copied and the old film discarded.
It does not seem unreasonable to me to understand what you need to do or be aware of if the film is identified as cellulose nitrate.

There is no suggestion in either my post or the link that one should panic. Rather there is a very reasonable suggestion that if the film has viewable images to contact a conservator/film archive for advice on preservation.

I would also caution about the use at this time of any water bath (at any temperature) until you know what you are dealing with; it is quite disconcerting to see the image slide of the substrate unless you have an alternative substrate to slide it onto .

Of course non of this matters if the image is of no real value sentimental, historical or otherwise to the OP
05-17-2018, 01:47 PM   #13
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I linked this page above in my earlier post:

5.1 A Short Guide to Film Base Photographic Materials: Identification, Care, and Duplication ? NEDCC
QuoteQuote:
Identification
Nitrate Film Base

In August 1889, Eastman Kodak began selling the first photographic negatives on cellulose nitrate flexible film support. This innovation was the foundation of an entirely new era in photography. The increased convenience of flexible films enabled professional photographers to take more photographs under a wider variety of conditions; it also created a new amateur market which quickly became the economic foundation of the photo industry.

Nitrate film remained in production in various formats until the early 1950s.

As a photographic support, nitrate film had some serious disadvantages. The film was, and is, highly flammable, and it releases hazardous gases as it deteriorates. Large quantities of nitrate film have caused several disastrous fires. Due to the inherent instability of cellulose nitrate, much of our photographic legacy from this period is disappearing.

A photographic collection that contains any flexible, transparent film negatives from the time period of 1890-1950 is very likely to contain at least some nitrate film. Since these negatives need special attention, they should immediately be separated from other negatives. Deteriorated nitrate negatives are easy to identify, but nitrate negatives in good condition are almost visually indistinguishable from other types of transparent films. There are four ways to identify nitrate negatives.

1. Edge printing

Nitrate Kodak notch code
Acetate Kodak notch code

Many manufacturers stamped professional sheet films with an identification along one border. The words generally identified the manufacturer and the type of film: nitrate or safety. Unfortunately, not all manufacturers adopted edge printing identification. It wasn’t done on either early nitrate negatives or onsome roll film formats. Amateur roll films were not marked but can be identified by their tendency to curl very tight scrolls

(later roll films were coated on both sides to prevent such curling). Notch codes can also identify sheet film as nitrate. A "V" notch code (first from the edge) will identify pre-1949 Kodak sheet film as nitrate while a “U” shaped notch (first from the edge) will indicate the Kodak film is acetate. Note that a nitrate negative may have been copied at some point and the edge printing from the original will appear on the copy. Therefore, just because you see the word “nitrate” does not guarantee that it is. See the section on testing to be sure.

2. Dating Information

The dates Eastman Kodak stopped the manufacture of nitrate film are listed in the table below. If a negative can be accurately dated, either by subject or by the photographer's notes, it is possible to determine if it is nitrate film.
Type of Film (see notes) Last Year of Nitrate Manufacture

X-ray films 1933
Roll films in 35mm (A) 1938
Portrait and Commercial sheet films (B) 1939
Aerial films 1942
Film Packs (C) 1949
Roll films in sizes 616, 620, etc. (D) 1950
Professional 35mm Motion Picture films (E) 1951
NOTES for Type of Film table
A. It has always been a common practice for photographers to purchase bulk rolls of 35mm motion picture film and re-spool it into cassettes for still camera use. It is possible to find still camera negatives on nitrate film for an additional 13-year period after this date.
B. Nitrate sheet film tends to have a very thick and rigid base. Additionally, professional sheet film negatives will have notches on one corner. These notches are used by photographers to determine the emulsion side in the dark.
C. Film pack negatives were produced in the same sizes as sheet film. Film packs used a much thinner and a very flexible based film. These negatives will feel like roll film. They lack a notch code, but may have a negative number, generally 1 through 12.
D. These sizes were called amateur roll film formats. Many families may have a small number of these negatives stored in their home with no idea of the hazard they represent.
E. Professional 35mm motion picture film is the most hazardous type. All nitrate 35mm motion picture film should be duplicated by an authorized laboratory. Then the nitrate motion picture film should be disposed of by the local fire marshal or a hazardous materials disposal service. NOTE: 16mm, regular 8, and super 8 movie formats were considered amateur formats and were always made on a safety film base.

Unfortunately, Eastman Kodak is the only manufacturer that has supplied any dates on nitrate film production. These dates do not apply to other manufacturers' films, nor do they give an indication of when Kodak started selling safety films. For example, nitrate sheet film production ended in 1939, but Kodak began test marketing safety based sheet film sometime in the mid-1920s. For most formats, there was a carryover period when both types of film were made.
So if the negatives are from the 1930s there is a good likelihood that they are cellulose nitrate based.

In the 1988 film Cinema Paradiso Philippe Noiret plays a cinema projectionist how is blinded and disfigured when some movie prints ignite. This was always a clear and present danger when projecting nitrate movie prints. Back in the 1970s there were only one or two movie theaters in Los Angeles that had the safety equipment to show nitrate prints. Basically the projection booth is a bomb/fire proof vault.
05-20-2018, 03:48 PM   #14
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Most of the old projection booths were lined with sheet metal to contain any fire. The danger was from damaged film that became stuck in the gate. This would quickly ignite due to the concentrated light from carbon arcs that were used up until recently. After igniting, the lighted ends would burn upwards and downwards into the film reels (which in older systems, had closable doors to cover the reels and contain the fire). "Snubbers" were used, which were two steel rollers the film threaded through as it was leaving or entering the film reels. The idea was that these would quench the flame (don't know how well that worked). Many projectionists were killed not by the fire, but by the extinguishing agent which was in small glass receptacles that would be thrown at the fire, braking the glass and releasing the liquid. The agent produced poisonous gas when it hit the flames and the projection booth was near air tight so you can guess what happened. Since open reels of that same type of film were present in the projection booth, the fire could spread but the best thing that could be done was for the projectionist to leave the area and let the fuel burn out (theater owners didn't agree with that policy).

I have a stock of negatives on the old nitro base and they are perfectly safe if kept away from ignition sources. Their major problem is that they just deteriorate over time (acetate will also) and need to be stored where cool and away from ignition sources. You can check to see if you have this stock by clipping a small piece and lighting it with a match (away from the remaining stock, of course). If its nitro, it will catch fire easily and burn pretty fast (a bit like flash paper but not that fast). Acetate will melt first and won't support a flame nearly as well.

Sorry about the diversion but couldn't help balthering on. Best advice for the OP is to contact a film preservationist for advice on straightening the folded portion. I believe it can be done - just have to have an expert in hand.

Last edited by Bob 256; 05-20-2018 at 03:53 PM.
05-22-2018, 01:32 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by TonyW Quote
I disagree with your assesment of my post and your strange assertion that I am somehow spreading FUD.

The page I linked is correct (yours is not as relevant or informative!) and from the UK Health and Safety executive and while it may be seen to be applicable to large collections the principles outlined are sound.

The issue here is twofold the film type/base itself and dealing with the fold.

First the film, we really do not know if it is cellulose nitrate or safety film cellulose triacetate a plastic base. The former was used at least in professional film until around the early 1950's.

The HSE document linked to was not to cause FUD but to help the OP identify the film. Rather this than be complacent IMHO!

The only film that I have seen that I am sure of being cellulose nitrate has been old X -Ray film; brown and blistered surface. Which was carefully copied and the old film discarded.
It does not seem unreasonable to me to understand what you need to do or be aware of if the film is identified as cellulose nitrate.

There is no suggestion in either my post or the link that one should panic. Rather there is a very reasonable suggestion that if the film has viewable images to contact a conservator/film archive for advice on preservation.

I would also caution about the use at this time of any water bath (at any temperature) until you know what you are dealing with; it is quite disconcerting to see the image slide of the substrate unless you have an alternative substrate to slide it onto .

Of course non of this matters if the image is of no real value sentimental, historical or otherwise to the OP
Although I do think my link is actually more relevant, the rest of my post was in error. I apologize.
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