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05-10-2020, 07:16 AM   #1
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Help ! film develop fog issue

Hi guys,
I come across some fog issue when i develop my first B&W film.
I pick the reversal process because I can see the positive picture on film.
The exposure should be right since my KX camera (with light meter) works well on color negative film developed by a professional shop.
I pick FOMAPAN 100 negative ( NOT FOMAPAN 100 R). and kodak D67 for first development (7:30 first try. 5:30 second try), I reduce the development time and the agitation frequency for my second try because the contrast on first try is too high and the image also appear too light.
The end result for both all have fog issue. Even at the very beginning of the film (see the film head circled in the picture) .film head is full exposed to light at film install.

Could anyone tell me which step is wrong?
I guess the development process or the bleach process is not enough.

Thanks !!

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05-10-2020, 07:43 AM   #2
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It's been a long time since I used any direct to positive B&W processing but at that time, the film used was specifically designed for it. It could be a combination of exposure/film/development that is causing your issues, but most likely the last two (looks a bit like agitation issues in development).

Personally, I would forget the direct to positive approach and go for simple negative development and then make a contact proof sheet from the negatives if I want to see the positive images. Negative development is straight forward and pretty much bullet-proof so you should get good results. If you want positive images, you could also scan the negatives and easily convert them to positives with software (I'm not sure how you plan to print positive images from film unless you are going to scan them anyway). I would pick a developer other than D-19 which is what you redeveloped with, because D-19 is a high contrast developer and better options exist for regular development.

Last edited by Bob 256; 05-10-2020 at 07:49 AM.
05-10-2020, 08:33 AM   #3
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I don't have any experience with reversal processing except to say what's in my darkroom handbook noting not all negative films are suitable for reversal processing. But it looks like the chemical fogging was not cleared in step 5.
05-10-2020, 09:17 AM   #4
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It's been a good 20+ years since I've done any reversal film processing and only color at that. Fogging in development was generally from three sources: (1) inadequate agitation, (2) old chemicals, or (3) inadequate temperatures.

Since I use a UniColor drum and motor roller (1) is not a problem.
(2) was addressed by using by not reusing the chemicals and using accordion bottles to minimize air in bottles.
(3) although I used temperature controlled water baths to warm the chemistry I would get fogging or odd reversal results in cold weather. The UniColor representative suggested after loading the reels into the drum to fill it with a brief water rinse at development temperatures. After following this I had no problems.

With negatives you can usually spot inadequate clearing, be it from agitation, temperatures or exhausted chemicals, on the areas outside the negative frame - i.e. head, tail, sprocket and inter-frame areas. Much more difficult to spot on reversal film. On slides the underdeveloped areas would sometimes appear as still negative or silvery or brownish reflections on the emulsion side (view the emulsion side at an angle).

05-10-2020, 10:25 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jie Li Quote
I come across some fog issue when i develop my first B&W film.
My suggestion is to not attempt reversal development on your first attempt at home processing.

When and if you do attempt it, I suggest a film intended for that purpose (e.g. Fomapan R 100, Adox Silvermax, or Adox Scala 160) processed with a kit intended for that film or by a lab that specializes in reversal processing.


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05-10-2020, 12:11 PM   #6
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I am almost certain your problem is over agitation. Are you using metal or plastic reels? When agitation is too aggressive by spinning or inversion or even worse, shaking, the chems going through the sprocket holes create more turbulence than areas away from the sprockets.

This would also explain why the results are improved in the second roll when you reduced your agitation frequency, but it's still there because of your technique.

Please detail exactly what kind of reels you're using and how are you agitating the film (figure 8, wrist rotation, spin the reel with an agitator stick, inversion, etc, and for how long and how frequently and with how approximately how fast)?
05-10-2020, 01:35 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jie Li Quote
I pick FOMAPAN 100 negative ( NOT FOMAPAN 100 R)
You'd be way better off shooing the true reversal film, Fomapan R100. Foma makes a specific home developing kit for that film.

I have shot this film a lot over the years, but have always sent it out for processing and mounting. There are places in Germany & the US that can develop it for you.

Phil.

05-14-2020, 01:28 AM   #8
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update with test #3-7

Thanks guys, here is an update with more tests (Alex maybe interested, I will update the image soon)
After 5 more test (test #3-7),I think the problem is from agitation. But I cannot tell it is bleach or first development issue.
Here is how I redo the test. A little long in text.

---------------------------------

test #3 conventional negative process
step 0 wash the Anti-glare
Developer ( Kodak D76 for 7 minutes: 1 minute rotation + every 10 sec rotation in 60 sec.)
Stop CB-1
Fix F5
Get OK result (first time trying negative process, hahaha… )

------------------------

From test #1 and #2, I thought the middle fogging may cause by small film separation and the chemical (in between the films) get depleted locally. I guess this is why agitation is needed in both development or bleach.
Then I reduce the film length so that there is only one full circle warping film ( without concentric overlap). but in test #4, the fogging pattern still appear everywhere in the middle. so the problem is more likely caused by horizontal movement (rotation most likely ?). So, in test #5, I avoid all rotation movement by not agitating in first development combined with non-rotation in the bleach process.

-------------------------

test #4: B&W reversal process (failure)
step 0 wash the Anti-glare
step 1 First developer (Kodak D72 + adding 1g potassium rhodanate) ( 4 minutes: 1 minute rotation + every 10 sec rotation+ 5 second figure eight in every 60 sec.)
step 3 Bleach (5 minutes: continue rotation + figure eight.)
---Right after bleach, I re-open the bottle in light for wash (in step 4) , I saw the yellow milky pattern in the middle of film (in step 4) which become the grey fogging after second development. so the fogging problem is from step 1-4.
---feel bad but continue process anyway----
step 5 Sodium Metabisulfite clean bath ( 5 minutes: continue rotation + figure eight.)
step 9 second develop D72
unmentioned steps are same as test #1 #2.

-------------------------

test #5: B&W reversal process (with success)
step 0 wash the Anti-glare
step 1_First developer (Kodak D72 + adding 1g potassium rhodanate) ( 4 minutes: complete still, no agitation except first-3-sec knock-off bubble) ( I see a YouTube video saying agitation only affect contrast in first development)
step 3_Bleach ( 5 minutes: open bottle in dark room. Pour in bleach liquid and continue agitation by Immerse and lift up(lift up 2cm, still submerged in the bleach liquid)and re-immerse the reel only in vertical direction)
I change to this agitation method to avoid any horizontal movement
setp 4-5-6 in darkness.
step 5 Sodium Metabisulfite clean bath
step 7 re-expose: no fogging pattern in the middle.
step 9 second develop D72
unmentioned steps are same as test #1 #2.

test #6: B&W reversal process (failure with known reason)

step 0 wash the Anti-glare
step 1_First developer (Kodak D72 + adding 1g potassium rhodanate) ( complete still, no agitation)
step 3_Bleach ( 5 minutes: complete still, no agitation)
I change Bleach without agitation to see if agitation is necessary for bleach (answer is YES!)
setp 4-5-6 in darkness.
step 5 Sodium Metabisulfite clean bath
step 7 re-expose (see image)
step 9 second develop D72
unmentioned steps are same as test #1 #2.
comments: inadequate agitation in bleach-step lead to an unwashed camera-exposed image.

test #7 all the same as test #5 to see if the result is repeatable. (YES! successful)

Conclusion:
The fog issue could come from 3 place based on my test:

1. First develop agitation (could be rotation since there is not figure-eight in test#1 and #2)
Personally, I did not think it is First develop agitation issue because the test#3 for negative develop is OK. And there is a lot of people using this type of reel.
2. bleach agitation (could be rotation since there is no figure-eight movement in test#1 and #2) most likely
3. early expose to light in step 4 (wash)

I guess I could do one more test to narrow down this fog problem:
First develop non-agitation + rotation bleach agitation. If fog show up. Must be bleach agitation issue

updated image below

Last edited by Jie Li; 05-14-2020 at 06:30 AM.
05-14-2020, 03:12 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jie Li Quote
Thanks guys, here is an update with more tests (Alex maybe interested, I will update the image soon)
After 3 more test (test #3 #4 #5),I think the problem is from agitation. But I cannot tell it is bleach or first development issue.
Yes, would love to see the tests, but based on what you described, I would now say the problem is caused by too much or too aggressive bleach agitation. The base on and near the sprocket holes is completely bleached leaving the mid section with what appears to be fog, but is really just your base layer.

There are just so many other factors that could contribute to it such as the amount of flashing, the strength of the second developer, and even the timing of the fixer removing too much or too little silver. You almost got a solarized print effect in one of your earlier attempts which would indicate premature flashing during development.

Reversal processing by hand is very demanding ESPECIALLY when using a film not designed for reversal. I had my students do this for a couple years but the failure rate was too high and too frustrating for most students and even I had an unacceptable quality doing it. For me, the common problem was caused by ph shock. Non reversal emulsions can't handle the big ph changes between chems and I knew I was trying to do something that although possible, the film was not designed to be processed in that way for those results.

Unless you're taking very good notes on the timing and technique on each step, you may want to video your trials so you can take notes later?
05-14-2020, 05:41 AM   #10
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here is the result for test #3-7

I guess the fogging issue is most likely the agitation in bleach step.
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Last edited by Jie Li; 05-14-2020 at 06:02 AM.
05-14-2020, 06:01 AM - 1 Like   #11
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image I used for test # 3-7

this is the image I used for test # 3-7
-2 -1 0 +1 +2 means under/over expose by 1/4 , 1/2 , 1 ,2 , 4 times the camera expose time.
I use pentax KX with 50mm lens @ F1.7 and 1/125 sec for normal expose. film iso 200 .

---------- Post added 05-14-20 at 06:51 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Alex645 Quote
Yes, would love to see the tests, but based on what you described, I would now say the problem is caused by too much or too aggressive bleach agitation. The base on and near the sprocket holes is completely bleached leaving the mid section with what appears to be fog, but is really just your base layer.

There are just so many other factors that could contribute to it such as the amount of flashing, the strength of the second developer, and even the timing of the fixer removing too much or too little silver. You almost got a solarized print effect in one of your earlier attempts which would indicate premature flashing during development.

Reversal processing by hand is very demanding ESPECIALLY when using a film not designed for reversal. I had my students do this for a couple years but the failure rate was too high and too frustrating for most students and even I had an unacceptable quality doing it. For me, the common problem was caused by ph shock. Non reversal emulsions can't handle the big ph changes between chems and I knew I was trying to do something that although possible, the film was not designed to be processed in that way for those results.

Unless you're taking very good notes on the timing and technique on each step, you may want to video your trials so you can take notes later?
Thanks Alex, i updated the image so you guys can have a better idea.
i agree with you that the problem is from agitation, and i am quite sure it is in bleach step.
so far I get a reproducible reverse process which suit my film and equipment, and it works without major fault.
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05-14-2020, 06:58 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jie Li Quote
here is the result for test #3-7

I guess the fogging issue is most likely the agitation in bleach step.
The density streaks are from agitation. In reverse processing, you either fog the film chemically or you do it during development by taking the film out of the tank in the dark and exposing it to a light source submerge in water. Your kit looks like it does chemical fogging which I suspect something went wrong there. Get a fresh kit and run another test roll with, say, Ilford PanF+ and see if it happens again.
05-14-2020, 07:37 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by tuco Quote
The density streaks are from agitation. In reverse processing, you either fog the film chemically or you do it during development by taking the film out of the tank in the dark and exposing it to a light source submerge in water. Your kit looks like it does chemical fogging which I suspect something went wrong there. Get a fresh kit and run another test roll with, say, Ilford PanF+ and see if it happens again.
Hi tuco, I do light re-expose by taking film out of reels.
05-15-2020, 10:05 AM   #14
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As mentioned, it could be any number of things. Second to agitation, it might be inadequate bleaching, leaving partially sensitized silver behind which then develops in last developer. That, too could be due to agitation or bleach formulation. Bottom line: Go negative processing and scan to positive.
05-16-2020, 04:51 PM   #15
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Test #8

Thanks guys~
Finally get it to work with method in test #5.
here is a new roll with reversal process.

some image have flaw (black dots), is it defect of the film itself or film go mouldy or my chemicals have impurities?

thanks!
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