Grains/Noise In Overexposed Shots Epson 4990 VueScan

Arte_Watanabe · 06-23-2021, 04:28 PM

Hi all,
I develop and scan my own films w/ Epson 4990 and VueScan. When I scan overexposed photos, they come out grainy w/ a lot of noise. Sometimes they come out w/ diagonal lines too. When I used to get my film processed at professional labs, overexposed shots always came out just all white (or whatever the color), smooth w/ no noise. With my current setup overexposed photos initially get scanned dark too, so I have to turn up the white point. These noises are different than the grains that are caused by underexposed shots. I haven't done any extensive research on this, but I feel like it's something very simple since I haven't thoroughly read VueScan's tutorial. Does anyone know how to fix this problem?
These are from the same roll of Portra 400 shot on Pentax 6x7.

Grainy noise in the sun

Less grainy but w/ diagonal lines

Properly exposed

**DWS1** · 06-23-2021, 05:07 PM - **1 Like**

Don't know the solution, but I've noticed the same effects.

**Bob 256** · 06-23-2021, 05:08 PM

If your film is grossly overexposed, the bright areas (sun) will be very dark. Very dark to a scanner means noise since the gain is increased to allow scanning these dense areas. This could be a limitation of your scanner, but my suggestion would be to reduce the film exposure unless you have really thin negatives to begin with. Not a clue on the diagonal lines. It looks like some kind of moire pattern like you might get if you scanned an image off an ink jet print.

One other possibility - since you develop your own film, are you sure you're running your bleach with fresh solution? There might be some residual silver (hence the graininess) in the film that your scanner is picking up. You can test it on these negatives by running the final bleach/wash/stabilization again with good solutions for the bleach.

**clickclick** · 06-23-2021, 07:18 PM

If it were a print, I'd say you need some descreening in the scan process. I'm wondering if somehow it's picking something up in the film itself. What file format are you scanning to, e.g. tiff? Have you tried different resolutions to see if it changes?

LesDMess · 06-23-2021, 08:43 PM

Curious, when you shot the first one "Grainy noise in the sun", did you meter for her face? If so, did you compensate for the very high backlighting by overexposing by at least 1 stop but better with 2 or even more?

Do you have access to another scanner? This would just eliminate your scanner from being the issue or not. The reason I ask is I am guessing your scanner is trying to "auto level" what I think are very dark frames depending on how you metered in my question above . . .

Aaron28 · 06-23-2021, 09:35 PM - **1 Like**

dust on scanner bed? generally when i get a magenta bar through the frame it is from dust......maybe the diagonal lines could be from the same......have not experienced that.....have the epson v600

steephill · 06-24-2021, 05:48 AM

You also have vertical lines on the first scan which means that your scanner needs cleaned, particularly the calibration strip. The diagonal lines look like a scanner artifact but the grain is simply the result of pushing the performance envelope a little too far. More information would be needed to help diagnose the problem - e.g. what scanning resolution are you using? How much gain are you using? I notice in scan 2 that you are scanning right up to the edge of the film, try cropping in a little to avoid Vuescan using the dark edge to set the scan exposure.

tuco · 06-24-2021, 06:53 AM

How much over exposed? When you see "grain" like that in the highlights, you are adjusting the contrast curve it too much in a direction the film doesn't want to go for that exposure/development. You see it a lot in small format images.

There are two basic approaches to scanning. One, you adjust the contrast curve in the scanning software to taste and final image. And the other you scan to grab as much density off the negative as the scanner will do and adjust the contrast cure in an image editor. You will most likely have a flat, dull image with that method initially but the more advanced contrast curve control in an image editor will give your most latitude.

Arte_Watanabe · 06-24-2021, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by DWS1

Don't know the solution, but I've noticed the same effects.

Interesting. Good to know I'm not the only one. Thanks.

---------- Post added 06-24-21 at 10:49 AM ----------

Originally posted by LesDMess

Curious, when you shot the first one "Grainy noise in the sun", did you meter for her face? If so, did you compensate for the very high backlighting by overexposing by at least 1 stop but better with 2 or even more?

Do you have access to another scanner? This would just eliminate your scanner from being the issue or not. The reason I ask is I am guessing your scanner is trying to "auto level" what I think are very dark frames depending on how you metered in my question above . . .

That's a good point. I also thought my scanner might be using some kind of auto level. I'll try different scanners.

I metered for her face. I didn't know overexposing it 1 or 2 stops was a thing even though something in the back of my mind told me I should try it! This, I believe, is my first time trying grossly overexposed backlight so I wasn't too experimental.

Thank you!

---------- Post added 06-24-21 at 10:50 AM ----------

Originally posted by Aaron28

dust on scanner bed? generally when i get a magenta bar through the frame it is from dust......maybe the diagonal lines could be from the same......have not experienced that.....have the epson v600

Interesting. The scanner bed seems clean.

Thank you!

---------- Post added 06-24-21 at 11:05 AM ----------

Originally posted by steephill

You also have vertical lines on the first scan which means that your scanner needs cleaned, particularly the calibration strip. The diagonal lines look like a scanner artifact but the grain is simply the result of pushing the performance envelope a little too far. More information would be needed to help diagnose the problem - e.g. what scanning resolution are you using? How much gain are you using? I notice in scan 2 that you are scanning right up to the edge of the film, try cropping in a little to avoid Vuescan using the dark edge to set the scan exposure.

I also thought the performance envelope was being pushed too far. I believe I used 600DPI for jpeg. I have no idea how much gain I'm using. How do it check that? I think I tried cropping a bit more but I'll try even more to see if that makes a difference.

The vertical lines are actually from squeegeeing it too hard. It's the damage I created on the neg myself. But, that makes me curious. Does the scan 3 w/o noise look like it needs cleaning? I've never cleaned it since I bought it so I'd love good cleaning done.

Thank you!

---------- Post added 06-24-21 at 11:07 AM ----------

Originally posted by tuco

How much over exposed? When you see "grain" like that in the highlights, you are adjusting the contrast curve it too much in a direction the film doesn't want to go for that exposure/development. You see it a lot in small format images.

There are two basic approaches to scanning. One, you adjust the contrast curve in the scanning software to taste and final image. And the other you scan to grab as much density off the negative as the scanner will do and adjust the contrast cure in an image editor. You will most likely have a flat, dull image with that method initially but the more advanced contrast curve control in an image editor will give your most latitude.

This is really good to know. Thank you!

LesDMess · 06-24-2021, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by Arte_Watanabe

That's a good point. I also thought my scanner might be using some kind of auto level. I'll try different scanners.

I metered for her face. I didn't know overexposing it 1 or 2 stops was a thing even though something in the back of my mind told me I should try it! This, I believe, is my first time trying grossly overexposed backlight so I wasn't too experimental.

Thank you!

If you didn't overexpose then I think the frame is grossly underexposed and the scanner is trying autolevels poorly causing these abberations. Color negatives are a little tricky to evaluate and reliance on the scanner can be a bit misleading.

Simple meters require manual override specially in strong backlighting or frontlighting of the main target. Most manuals have a quick blurb about this.

Kodak Portra 400 has so much room for overexposure so don't hesitate to take advantage of it if needed. When in doubt, err on the side of overexposure.

steephill · 06-24-2021, 02:38 PM

I would suggest trying a scan at the maximum true resolution setting of 2400spi to avoid any interpolation artifacts. Use maximum bit depth by selecting DNG or TIFF format. The resulting file will be huge but will eliminate any banding from using 8 bit jpegs.

Arte_Watanabe · 06-24-2021, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by LesDMess

If you didn't overexpose then I think the frame is grossly underexposed and the scanner is trying autolevels poorly causing these abberations. Color negatives are a little tricky to evaluate and reliance on the scanner can be a bit misleading.

Simple meters require manual override specially in strong backlighting or frontlighting of the main target. Most manuals have a quick blurb about this.

Kodak Portra 400 has so much room for overexposure so don't hesitate to take advantage of it if needed. When in doubt, err on the side of overexposure.

UNDERexposed?! Really? I knew Portras are good with overexposure but I'm not sure if I've ever pushed it more than 1 stop. I'll experiment next time.
Thank you!

---------- Post added 06-24-21 at 04:40 PM ----------

Originally posted by steephill

I would suggest trying a scan at the maximum true resolution setting of 2400spi to avoid any interpolation artifacts. Use maximum bit depth by selecting DNG or TIFF format. The resulting file will be huge but will eliminate any banding from using 8 bit jpegs.

That's a good idea. I'll try and see.

I found an article explaining what causes the noise in overexposed negatives. It does seem to be caused by the limitation of my consumer level scanner even though it is a very good one. I guess I can plan to have overexposed negs professionally in the future if I really want to have it w/o noise.
How Exposure affects scanning of color negative film ? Sebastian Schlueter

Thank you!

LesDMess · 06-24-2021, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by Arte_Watanabe

UNDERexposed?! Really? I knew Portras are good with overexposure but I'm not sure if I've ever pushed it more than 1 stop. I'll experiment next time.
Thank you!

I don't have the film so it's just a guess on my part and I definitely could be way offbase. I just figure since your scanner did just fine on that third image and so very poorly on the first and that you didn't compensate for the metering.

Here is a test of the overexposure range of the Portra 400 that I did and as you can see it was still usable at +10 with just minor white balance and levels.

Arte_Watanabe · 06-24-2021, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by LesDMess

I don't have the film so it's just a guess on my part and I definitely could be way offbase. I just figure since your scanner did just fine on that third image and so very poorly on the first and that you didn't compensate for the metering.

Here is a test of the overexposure range of the Portra 400 that I did and as you can see it was still usable at +10 with just minor white balance and levels.

Wow, this is a fantastic test. Really puts it in perspective. Thank you.

On the website I saw earlier he has a photo taken w/ Portra 400 overexposed by 9 stops and it looks pretty noisy like mine. He used V700 for it. And then, he compares the same neg scanned by Fuji Frontier Scan, which resulted w/ no noise.
How Exposure affects scanning of color negative film ? Sebastian Schlueter

Which scanner did you use for your test?

LesDMess · 06-25-2021, 04:52 AM

Interesting test by Sebastian using a Fuji Frontier scanner and how it handles over and under exposure. It would be interesting if you can find a minilab that uses a Fuji Frontier scanner to try out. Or maybe even the more commonly found Noritsu for comparison.

For most of my scanning now, I use the Nikon Coolscan 9000 + Nikonscan and Epson 4990 + Epson Scan for larger films.

This is the full exposure testing I did with Portra 400 - over and under.

06-23-2021, 04:28 PM	#1
Arte_Watanabe New Member Join Date: Feb 2021 Location: Austin, TX Photos: Albums Posts: 16	Grains/Noise In Overexposed Shots Epson 4990 VueScan Hi all, I develop and scan my own films w/ Epson 4990 and VueScan. When I scan overexposed photos, they come out grainy w/ a lot of noise. Sometimes they come out w/ diagonal lines too. When I used to get my film processed at professional labs, overexposed shots always came out just all white (or whatever the color), smooth w/ no noise. With my current setup overexposed photos initially get scanned dark too, so I have to turn up the white point. These noises are different than the grains that are caused by underexposed shots. I haven't done any extensive research on this, but I feel like it's something very simple since I haven't thoroughly read VueScan's tutorial. Does anyone know how to fix this problem? These are from the same roll of Portra 400 shot on Pentax 6x7. Grainy noise in the sun Less grainy but w/ diagonal lines Properly exposed

06-23-2021, 05:08 PM	#3
Bob 256 Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Idaho Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,375	If your film is grossly overexposed, the bright areas (sun) will be very dark. Very dark to a scanner means noise since the gain is increased to allow scanning these dense areas. This could be a limitation of your scanner, but my suggestion would be to reduce the film exposure unless you have really thin negatives to begin with. Not a clue on the diagonal lines. It looks like some kind of moire pattern like you might get if you scanned an image off an ink jet print. One other possibility - since you develop your own film, are you sure you're running your bleach with fresh solution? There might be some residual silver (hence the graininess) in the film that your scanner is picking up. You can test it on these negatives by running the final bleach/wash/stabilization again with good solutions for the bleach. Last edited by Bob 256; 06-23-2021 at 07:35 PM.

06-24-2021, 10:26 AM	#9
Arte_Watanabe New Member Join Date: Feb 2021 Location: Austin, TX Photos: Albums Posts: 16 Original Poster	Originally posted by DWS1 Don't know the solution, but I've noticed the same effects. Interesting. Good to know I'm not the only one. Thanks. ---------- Post added 06-24-21 at 10:49 AM ---------- Originally posted by LesDMess Curious, when you shot the first one "Grainy noise in the sun", did you meter for her face? If so, did you compensate for the very high backlighting by overexposing by at least 1 stop but better with 2 or even more? Do you have access to another scanner? This would just eliminate your scanner from being the issue or not. The reason I ask is I am guessing your scanner is trying to "auto level" what I think are very dark frames depending on how you metered in my question above . . . That's a good point. I also thought my scanner might be using some kind of auto level. I'll try different scanners. I metered for her face. I didn't know overexposing it 1 or 2 stops was a thing even though something in the back of my mind told me I should try it! This, I believe, is my first time trying grossly overexposed backlight so I wasn't too experimental. Thank you! ---------- Post added 06-24-21 at 10:50 AM ---------- Originally posted by Aaron28 dust on scanner bed? generally when i get a magenta bar through the frame it is from dust......maybe the diagonal lines could be from the same......have not experienced that.....have the epson v600 Interesting. The scanner bed seems clean. Thank you! ---------- Post added 06-24-21 at 11:05 AM ---------- Originally posted by steephill You also have vertical lines on the first scan which means that your scanner needs cleaned, particularly the calibration strip. The diagonal lines look like a scanner artifact but the grain is simply the result of pushing the performance envelope a little too far. More information would be needed to help diagnose the problem - e.g. what scanning resolution are you using? How much gain are you using? I notice in scan 2 that you are scanning right up to the edge of the film, try cropping in a little to avoid Vuescan using the dark edge to set the scan exposure. I also thought the performance envelope was being pushed too far. I believe I used 600DPI for jpeg. I have no idea how much gain I'm using. How do it check that? I think I tried cropping a bit more but I'll try even more to see if that makes a difference. The vertical lines are actually from squeegeeing it too hard. It's the damage I created on the neg myself. But, that makes me curious. Does the scan 3 w/o noise look like it needs cleaning? I've never cleaned it since I bought it so I'd love good cleaning done. Thank you! ---------- Post added 06-24-21 at 11:07 AM ---------- Originally posted by tuco How much over exposed? When you see "grain" like that in the highlights, you are adjusting the contrast curve it too much in a direction the film doesn't want to go for that exposure/development. You see it a lot in small format images. There are two basic approaches to scanning. One, you adjust the contrast curve in the scanning software to taste and final image. And the other you scan to grab as much density off the negative as the scanner will do and adjust the contrast cure in an image editor. You will most likely have a flat, dull image with that method initially but the more advanced contrast curve control in an image editor will give your most latitude. This is really good to know. Thank you! Last edited by Arte_Watanabe; 06-24-2021 at 11:04 AM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Free to pickup Epson Perfection 4990 scanner (SOMA / south beach)	LesDMess	Film Processing, Scanning, and Darkroom	0	05-24-2021 03:34 PM
For Sale - Sold: Epson 4990 Perfection scanner REDUCED Again	SpecialK	Sold Items	4	06-28-2014 09:02 PM
Workflow for Scanning, tips for VueScan, Epson V500.. guhhh	poppaneedsanap	Film Processing, Scanning, and Darkroom	9	04-21-2014 12:52 PM
Landscape Ancien silos de grains	Fraisy	Post Your Photos!	2	11-03-2011 04:42 PM
brand new pentax k-x grains!	razorBlades	Pentax DSLR Discussion	36	12-18-2010 04:32 AM

06-23-2021, 05:07 PM - 1 Like	#2
DWS1 Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Arkansas, USA Posts: 1,169	Don't know the solution, but I've noticed the same effects.

06-23-2021, 07:18 PM	#4
clickclick Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: May 2016 Location: East Coast Posts: 2,903	If it were a print, I'd say you need some descreening in the scan process. I'm wondering if somehow it's picking something up in the film itself. What file format are you scanning to, e.g. tiff? Have you tried different resolutions to see if it changes?

06-23-2021, 08:43 PM	#5
LesDMess Pentaxian Join Date: May 2011 Location: Santa Cruz, CA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,235	Curious, when you shot the first one "Grainy noise in the sun", did you meter for her face? If so, did you compensate for the very high backlighting by overexposing by at least 1 stop but better with 2 or even more? Do you have access to another scanner? This would just eliminate your scanner from being the issue or not. The reason I ask is I am guessing your scanner is trying to "auto level" what I think are very dark frames depending on how you metered in my question above . . .

06-23-2021, 09:35 PM - 1 Like	#6
Aaron28 Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Huntsville, Al Posts: 7,131	dust on scanner bed? generally when i get a magenta bar through the frame it is from dust......maybe the diagonal lines could be from the same......have not experienced that.....have the epson v600

06-24-2021, 05:48 AM	#7
steephill Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2018 Photos: Gallery Posts: 585	You also have vertical lines on the first scan which means that your scanner needs cleaned, particularly the calibration strip. The diagonal lines look like a scanner artifact but the grain is simply the result of pushing the performance envelope a little too far. More information would be needed to help diagnose the problem - e.g. what scanning resolution are you using? How much gain are you using? I notice in scan 2 that you are scanning right up to the edge of the film, try cropping in a little to avoid Vuescan using the dark edge to set the scan exposure.

06-24-2021, 06:53 AM	#8
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,025	How much over exposed? When you see "grain" like that in the highlights, you are adjusting the contrast curve it too much in a direction the film doesn't want to go for that exposure/development. You see it a lot in small format images. There are two basic approaches to scanning. One, you adjust the contrast curve in the scanning software to taste and final image. And the other you scan to grab as much density off the negative as the scanner will do and adjust the contrast cure in an image editor. You will most likely have a flat, dull image with that method initially but the more advanced contrast curve control in an image editor will give your most latitude.

06-24-2021, 11:25 AM	#10
LesDMess Pentaxian Join Date: May 2011 Location: Santa Cruz, CA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,235	Originally posted by Arte_Watanabe That's a good point. I also thought my scanner might be using some kind of auto level. I'll try different scanners. I metered for her face. I didn't know overexposing it 1 or 2 stops was a thing even though something in the back of my mind told me I should try it! This, I believe, is my first time trying grossly overexposed backlight so I wasn't too experimental. Thank you! If you didn't overexpose then I think the frame is grossly underexposed and the scanner is trying autolevels poorly causing these abberations. Color negatives are a little tricky to evaluate and reliance on the scanner can be a bit misleading. Simple meters require manual override specially in strong backlighting or frontlighting of the main target. Most manuals have a quick blurb about this. Kodak Portra 400 has so much room for overexposure so don't hesitate to take advantage of it if needed. When in doubt, err on the side of overexposure.

06-24-2021, 02:38 PM	#11
steephill Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2018 Photos: Gallery Posts: 585	I would suggest trying a scan at the maximum true resolution setting of 2400spi to avoid any interpolation artifacts. Use maximum bit depth by selecting DNG or TIFF format. The resulting file will be huge but will eliminate any banding from using 8 bit jpegs.

06-24-2021, 04:32 PM	#12
Arte_Watanabe New Member Join Date: Feb 2021 Location: Austin, TX Photos: Albums Posts: 16 Original Poster	Originally posted by LesDMess If you didn't overexpose then I think the frame is grossly underexposed and the scanner is trying autolevels poorly causing these abberations. Color negatives are a little tricky to evaluate and reliance on the scanner can be a bit misleading. Simple meters require manual override specially in strong backlighting or frontlighting of the main target. Most manuals have a quick blurb about this. Kodak Portra 400 has so much room for overexposure so don't hesitate to take advantage of it if needed. When in doubt, err on the side of overexposure. UNDERexposed?! Really? I knew Portras are good with overexposure but I'm not sure if I've ever pushed it more than 1 stop. I'll experiment next time. Thank you! ---------- Post added 06-24-21 at 04:40 PM ---------- Originally posted by steephill I would suggest trying a scan at the maximum true resolution setting of 2400spi to avoid any interpolation artifacts. Use maximum bit depth by selecting DNG or TIFF format. The resulting file will be huge but will eliminate any banding from using 8 bit jpegs. That's a good idea. I'll try and see. I found an article explaining what causes the noise in overexposed negatives. It does seem to be caused by the limitation of my consumer level scanner even though it is a very good one. I guess I can plan to have overexposed negs professionally in the future if I really want to have it w/o noise. How Exposure affects scanning of color negative film ? Sebastian Schlueter Thank you!

06-24-2021, 04:55 PM	#13
LesDMess Pentaxian Join Date: May 2011 Location: Santa Cruz, CA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,235	Originally posted by Arte_Watanabe UNDERexposed?! Really? I knew Portras are good with overexposure but I'm not sure if I've ever pushed it more than 1 stop. I'll experiment next time. Thank you! I don't have the film so it's just a guess on my part and I definitely could be way offbase. I just figure since your scanner did just fine on that third image and so very poorly on the first and that you didn't compensate for the metering. Here is a test of the overexposure range of the Portra 400 that I did and as you can see it was still usable at +10 with just minor white balance and levels.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

06-24-2021, 11:09 PM	#14
Arte_Watanabe New Member Join Date: Feb 2021 Location: Austin, TX Photos: Albums Posts: 16 Original Poster	Originally posted by LesDMess I don't have the film so it's just a guess on my part and I definitely could be way offbase. I just figure since your scanner did just fine on that third image and so very poorly on the first and that you didn't compensate for the metering. Here is a test of the overexposure range of the Portra 400 that I did and as you can see it was still usable at +10 with just minor white balance and levels. Wow, this is a fantastic test. Really puts it in perspective. Thank you. On the website I saw earlier he has a photo taken w/ Portra 400 overexposed by 9 stops and it looks pretty noisy like mine. He used V700 for it. And then, he compares the same neg scanned by Fuji Frontier Scan, which resulted w/ no noise. How Exposure affects scanning of color negative film ? Sebastian Schlueter Which scanner did you use for your test?

06-25-2021, 04:52 AM	#15
LesDMess Pentaxian Join Date: May 2011 Location: Santa Cruz, CA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,235	Interesting test by Sebastian using a Fuji Frontier scanner and how it handles over and under exposure. It would be interesting if you can find a minilab that uses a Fuji Frontier scanner to try out. Or maybe even the more commonly found Noritsu for comparison. For most of my scanning now, I use the Nikon Coolscan 9000 + Nikonscan and Epson 4990 + Epson Scan for larger films. This is the full exposure testing I did with Portra 400 - over and under.