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07-04-2021, 02:15 PM - 1 Like   #16
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The warmer tones of some older silver gelatin paper is because it used chlorobromide emulsion, not bromide. It could be very attractive, Kodak made the last I saw. Had I the space any more, B&W printing would be a lot of fun: I really enjoyed making good quality prints on Ilford Multigrade fibre-based paper.

07-04-2021, 03:59 PM - 2 Likes   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
You might want to spread your wings a bit and maybe take a refresher course or workshop in darkroom printing.

Several factors influence the color of a traditional (silver-based) B&W print:
  • The paper stock (color, texture, weight, and materials)
  • The paper's emulsion characteristics (warm vs. cool)
  • Whether toning for archival purposes and/or effect is employed as a final step in processing.
Note that the qualification of silver-based prints. Alternative process adds an entirely different aspect. When I was doing wet prints, I used cool tone non-RC papers on bright white stock. Selenium toning was applied as the final step in archival processing and also because I like the subtle change to the appearance.


Steve
Add in there - developer (which can influence the tone of a B & W print. There are warm tone and cold tone developers (but the main determining factor is the paper).
07-04-2021, 07:00 PM - 1 Like   #18
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As others have mentioned, a lot has to do with the paper, film and processing. I was a big fan of the Kodak Polycontrast Rapid II RC paper, and I do not think of that as having brown tones to it. A buddy of mine was into the AGFA Sepia, and my memory was that it very much had that brown tone look.
07-04-2021, 09:57 PM - 3 Likes   #19
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it's complicated and I am about to give away my age. When I started doing darkroom work (late 1960s), B&W papers were available from Kodak, GAF, Agfa, Ilford, and Dupont. For essentially pure black on a pure white base there were Kodak Kodabromide, Agfa Brovira, Ilford Ilfabrom (perhaps a drop warm?), and GAF and Dupont papers whose names escape me. So-called "warm-tone" papers, i.e. black with a hint of brown, included Kodak Medalist, Agfa Portriga Rapid, GAF Cykora, etc. These were on essentially white bases with a touch of warmth (very faintly cream). Some folks complained that Portriga Rapid had a greenish tinge but that depended on the developer, temperature, and illumination. That never was a problem for me and prints on Portriga had a sense of "depth" that no Kodak paper could rival. There definitely were papers that had distinctly cream-colored bases, Kodak Ektalure and Opal for example. Dupont Varigam could print to a truly cold (i.e. blue-leaning) black and Varilour was designed to provide a range of tones from neutral black to distinctly warmer but not quite brown, depending on developer, drying temperature and the optional use of a special developer additive. Papers also came in a very wide range of textures that could also affect the perception of intensity/depth/ density/contrast. An old Kodak chart I have lists 23 different brands of Kodak papers (some only for contact printing or special purposes) and nine possible surfaces, although well under half the total possible combinations were actually available. Then there were the paper developers: for neutral or "cold" tones there were Kodak Dektol, Dupont 54-D, Ilford Ilfobrom, Edwal 111 and formulas one had to mix from raw chemicals, like the pyrogallol developers that Edward Weston loved, Ansco (later GAF) 130, etc. For "warmer" blacks one could buy Kodak Selectol, GAF Ardol (I sent to hazardous waste disposal what was probably the world's last unopened can of it about two years ago), Edwal Platinum and others, or mix in the darkroom Ansco 135, Agfa 120, Ilford ID-78, etc. And then there were toners of all sorts, too long a story to get into here. The take home message is that there was no one standard or ideal black and white print "color" although fashions and times did change what photographers preferred. The f/64 school of photographers (Weston, Ansel Adams, Imogen Cunningham, etc.) leaned towards neutral or even cold blacks, although Ansel Adams' earliest prints were distinctly warm tone, as was the commercial style at that time. In college, my yearbook colleagues thought I was really weird for printing on warm-tone papers and experimenting with sepia toners to get a wide range of brown tones as the Ansel Adams style was THE style at that time and Ansel's style was to print on neutral or slightly cold-tone papers with pure white bases (Kodabromide, Brovira) and then tone them with selenium toner. On these papers, which were mostly silver bromide, the selenium toner would eliminate any last hint of warmth and increase the density (deeper black, less gray, which Kodabromide certainly needed when the price of silver skyrocketed) of the print; if carried to excess this toner could give a hint of purple to these papers. The same toner on the warm-tone chlorobromide papers gave a deep brown that was very attractive but very out-of-fashion at that time. Tastes change, and now that we can have our digital blacks with any tint we want we have to decide if we are trying to emulate silver halide prints and if so, those of which photographer at what time. Alternatively, we can choose one "black" as our own style of digital print or we can choose a tone for each image based on what we feel is best for that image. The last is my practice but there is certainly no one right answer. I have to admit that I did have fun figuring out how to emulate the tint and tonal range of long-extinct Dupont Varigam using the Topaz Labs B&W Effects plugin....

07-04-2021, 10:11 PM - 2 Likes   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
In theory, the colloidal particles of developed metallic silver should be fairly neutral in color as should the paper.
They aren't quite neutral. There is always a slight green cast to silver based photographic prints - a short 30 second selenium bath is enough to get rid of it and it also improves archival stability.
07-05-2021, 12:18 AM   #21
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I found some info at Ilford website: Pick the Perfect Paper - Ilford Photo%
They offer a range of papers, some available as cool, neutral or warm.

I printed (hard proof) the same image with various amount of digital toning. To me (subjective), the most true to b&w has a tiny bit of warmth added without appearing to have been intentionally toned. The print without any tone added looks slightly cool. The eye is rather sensitive, able to detect minor tone variations. I guess the type of traditional black & white images I have in mind were developed on paper that didn't contain any whitener, hence very slightly brown mixed-in due to paper base and chemical processing. And I'm not referring to b&w prints yellowed with age or intentionally selenium or sepia toned.
07-05-2021, 12:30 AM   #22
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You can make your own coating on the paper of your choice and control it from start to finish Platinum Print . Vellum, 100% cotton rag, silk, rice paper - all your decision

07-05-2021, 12:32 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I use a number of papers for inkjet printing, some of which are coated stock with characteristics similar to traditional photo papers. In comparison with the silver prints I have on hand, the whiteness is quite comparable. Both use a UV brightening agent and/or may also employ a baryta coating to increase reflectance.
A while back , I found and watched a video comparing an Ilford darkroom print to an inkjet counterpart.
We can see that the inkjet surfaces aren't the same as the original darkroom print, but the idea of texture is there, pretty good. From the video, it is hard to tell if there is a difference of tone, due to lighting and white balance used for the video recording.
07-05-2021, 01:53 AM - 1 Like   #24
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With Caffenol you don't need warm paper, it is
07-05-2021, 03:01 AM - 1 Like   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Aiming at digital printing that looks as much as possible like traditional darkroom prints by minor toning of digital files.
In my experience the best digital printing method for producing B&W prints is through the Piezography printing technique. Coupled with a traditional printing paper from the product lines from either Hanemuhle or Ilford, choose a heavyweight paper (preferably with a Baryta base) the results are very close to traditional darkroom prints - without the unfortunate chemical residues and smells involved with exposure to selenium or sulfur compounds.
07-05-2021, 04:46 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
In my experience the best digital printing method for producing B&W prints is through the Piezography printing technique. Coupled with a traditional printing paper from the product lines from either Hanemuhle or Ilford, choose a heavyweight paper (preferably with a Baryta base) the results are very close to traditional darkroom prints - without the unfortunate chemical residues and smells involved with exposure to selenium or sulfur compounds.
True B&W piezo are make out of modified Epson inkjet printed replacing color inks by some brown and grey ink variants, plus some special software to send properly converted image data to the printer. That makes me think, I do have a sample pack that I bought from this lab ( Picto Online - Samples : The Book ) a while ago. The kit includes Durst Lambda prints on Ilford paper (these aren't darkroom prints), and Piezo prints (cool, neutral, warm). I can say, compared to all other non-piezo neutral prints (side by side), the "neutral" piezo prints all have a slightly brownish tint added to them.
07-05-2021, 08:55 AM - 1 Like   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
the "neutral" piezo prints all have a slightly brownish tint added to them.
AFAIK they use Carbon for their inks: hence the immense longevity of the prints, however there is a slight warm cast to carbon prints - even carbon prints created in the chemical darkroom have this trait.
07-05-2021, 09:54 AM - 1 Like   #28
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Visually, yes, you can produce a pretty neutral BW old school wet print. There is/was cold tone and warm tone grossly resin coated and fiber base papers. The once many different brands often had their special hue to their warm tone fiber base papers. I use to use Kodak's Fine Art Elite fiber base paper with no archive toning to get rich BW prints that look like a neutral enough grey scale to me.

Another factor is developing the print. If you apply an archiving toner step to the print, you will add a color cast. The degree is a function of the paper type and brand. There were may types of toners creating different levels of tones to a print. So creating a print you could get lots of variations of a tone from the combination of paper type (eg cold tone, warm tone, glossy RC/fiber, matte RC/fiber) and toner type.

Last edited by tuco; 07-05-2021 at 10:04 AM.
07-05-2021, 11:15 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by fs999 Quote
With Caffenol you don't need warm paper, it is
Does the print still smell coffee after the print is finished?
07-05-2021, 11:30 AM - 1 Like   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by fs999 Quote
With Caffenol you don't need warm paper, it is
My pyro stained negatives (greenish + brown) had no effect with the color on the print. In fact the color stain is one reason to use pyro stained negatives. Since the negative now has some color, you can exploit that by using filters on the enlarger to effectively burn/dodge highlights and shadows to a degree on variable contrast paper.
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