[FozzFoster]

What about using one at the Edmonton Public Library? They seem to have maker spaces that you can use there. Thingiverse has a few options, but this is the one that I used.

Perfect! I didn't even know that existed! I'm going to look more into this! Thanks again

[disconnekt]

Initially I'll be shooting Fomapan 200 Creative, but expect to try some of the Ilford films too. Since I don't expect to be shooting and developing large amounts of film (perhaps one or two films a month), I'd rather not store quantities of prepared chemicals for later (or re-) use. I'm therefore leaning towards one-shot diluted concentrate developers, and prefer the look of high-acutance over fine grain. I live in a soft water area, and would be using a Paterson Super System 4 tank or similar, with chemicals and water acclimatised to room temperature of around 21C / 70F. I'd like to keep the process as simple and foolproof as possible, and prefer the idea of liquid rather than powder chemicals for easier mixing.

From the research I've done thus far, this is what I've come up with:

Developer: Agfa Rodinal Compard R09 (or similar) @ 1+20 or possibly 1+50
Stop-bath: Soft tap water (six washes and dumps)
Fixer: Ilford Rapid Fixer @ 1+4
Wash: Soft tap water (six washes and dumps, Adox AdoFlo II wetting agent added on last wash)

I'd greatly appreciate any critique and feedback on the above - things I may have mis-understood or missed, recommendations for better and/or more economical products or approach, etc.

With Rodinal, as the kids say nowadays: "expect phat grain" 😂.
I would reccomend Legacy Pro L-110 (their "version" of Kodak HC110, $15 bucks for a 16oz bottle on Freestyle & B&H), but since you said youll be developing ~2 rolls a month, it may or may not be worth the extra $2 bucks, mainly due to not knowing the longevity of it but a majority of the reviews Ive seen online have said they finished the bottle in~2 years with good results (even though the bottle did turn a light brownish/caramel color ~7 months of being open, the quality was still good). My bottle lasted ~1 1/2 years but I deved ~60 rolls in that time.

For stop bath, I've used a distilled white vinegar & distilled water mix (4oz vinegar : 6oz distilled water). Plus sides are that a 32 oz bottle is only a buck at the dollar store and ~$3 for a gallon of the store brand version, less water usage, and you can just dump it out after using it, that dont have to worry about storeing another chemical under the sink/ worry getting rid of afterwards.

[Kobayashi.K]

BigMackCam, if you only intend to shoot and develop small amounts of films, take a look at the new Tetenal Parvovin Tabs (developer), and Tetenal Superfix Tabs (fixer). The tablets can be stored for many years, and one tablet is good for one or two films.

https://tetenal.com/consumer-shop/s-w-chemie/phototabs/

[tuco]

Fair point, but Rodinal isn't a pyro developer iirc unless they changed the recipe completely from when I last used it.

I use Rodinal and have developed without a acid stop bath for years because I didn't want to contaminate the fixer for when I use PMK Pryo. My point is you can successfully develop BW film without an acid stop bath even though it may be more optimum to use it.

[Viking42]

Although I'll soon be all set for scanning lab-developed 135 and 120 film, I'm slowly preparing for the day where I'll try my hand at developing B&W film myself (hopefully before the year is out). As such, I've been looking at different chemicals with a view to achieving the look I think I want in the most economical manner.

Initially I'll be shooting Fomapan 200 Creative, but expect to try some of the Ilford films too. Since I don't expect to be shooting and developing large amounts of film (perhaps one or two films a month), I'd rather not store quantities of prepared chemicals for later (or re-) use. I'm therefore leaning towards one-shot diluted concentrate developers, and prefer the look of high-acutance over fine grain. I live in a soft water area, and would be using a Paterson Super System 4 tank or similar, with chemicals and water acclimatised to room temperature of around 21C / 70F. I'd like to keep the process as simple and foolproof as possible, and prefer the idea of liquid rather than powder chemicals for easier mixing.

From the research I've done thus far, this is what I've come up with:

Developer: Agfa Rodinal Compard R09 (or similar) @ 1+20 or possibly 1+50
Stop-bath: Soft tap water (six washes and dumps)
Fixer: Ilford Rapid Fixer @ 1+4
Wash: Soft tap water (six washes and dumps, Adox AdoFlo II wetting agent added on last wash)

... followed by squeegee before drying.

Again, I'm in a soft water area and have no problem with mineral deposits in appliances or on kitchen work surfaces. I've read that while distilled water is recommended for the final wash, soft water works OK, especially when a good wetting agent is added.

I'd greatly appreciate any critique and feedback on the above - things I may have mis-understood or missed, recommendations for better and/or more economical products or approach, etc.

Many thanks in advance

Hi Mike,

First of all, good on you for taking on b&w film and doing your own developing. It's so rewarding. You will love it.

Some suggestions for you in reply to a few of your points above...

Rodinal is a great developer, and as you've read, it lasts forever. So does HC110. They are both extremely economical to use. I haven't used HC110 yet, but have developed quite a few films in Rodinal. For Rodinal, I would stay away from the 1+20 and 1+25 dilutions as the development times are really really short....like 5 minutes or less. So it will be hard to get consistent results from roll to roll, because if you're off on your timing you can overdevelop pretty quickly. Also, the contrast can be very high at those dilutions, which some find attractive but this makes it really hard to scan and rein it in in your editor. For scanning it's better to have flatter contrast negs so you get the full range of tones in your scan and don't lose shadows or highlights. You can tweak the contrast and curves later in your editor. Therefore I recommend Rodinal at 1+50 -- the development times are reasonable at about 9 to 11 minutes, which gives you a bit of wiggle room for timing errors (a good thing if you're just learning), and you can get lovely gradations and tonality at that dilution. Still lots of guts and punch, but not soot and chalk.

One BIG tip for Rodinal -- take it gently with agitation. Only 2 very slow inversions every minute. If you use, say, Ilford's or Kodak's inversion regimen you will get way more grain and contrast. Softly softly with Rodinal (BTW, this is straight out of Agfa's tech sheet, so I'm not making this up).

As for water stop vs. acid stop, I use acid stop for all developers except Rodinal. The first few films (FP4) I did in Rodinal were with an acid stop and I got really wierd grain...kind of mushy and clumpy. I'd never seen this before in any developer. Talking to some very experienced photographers, they mentioned that because Rodinal's pH is so high the film can get a pH shock when it hits the acid. Since then I have used a single water bath and agitated for one minute, and the problem went away (no need to do 6 water rinses for stop, BTW...1 will do fine). That said, for any other developer I always use a stop bath.

To be honest, Rodinal can take a bit of practice to master if you're just learning all this. I've been developing films since the '80s, and just started using Rodinal a few years ago and ruined the first couple of films I ran through it. I found that most of the posted development times out there were way too long and gave ungodly amounts of contrast. Cutting them back by 25%, using soft agitation, and higher dilution was what it took to finally tame it.

So using 1+50, the agitation described, and water stop, I now get beautiful sharp negs with fine grain, wonderful deep midtones and shadows, and luminous highlights -- a great combo with FP4.

As for drying, I use just a few drops of wetting agent in the final rinse and hang the films to air dry. Works great. Too much wetting agent and you get residue. And no squeegee for me, thanks.

Hope this helps. Any more questions, just ask.

Regards,
Svend

[officiousbystander]

I use vinegar in my stop bath. One rinse and then one rinse with water. I may have read it here or somewhere else.
how much do I dilute vinegar to make stop bath? | Photrio.com Photography Forums
Used to use a squeegee but not anymore. A good wetting agent means film dries on its own without spots. I use one or two drops of Kodak Photoflo in a final rinse. One bottle is going to last me the rest of my life.

[niels hansen]

Hi Mike,

First of all, good on you for taking on b&w film and doing your own developing. It's so rewarding. You will love it.

Some suggestions for you in reply to a few of your points above...

Rodinal is a great developer, and as you've read, it lasts forever. So does HC110. They are both extremely economical to use. I haven't used HC110 yet, but have developed quite a few films in Rodinal. For Rodinal, I would stay away from the 1+20 and 1+25 dilutions as the development times are really really short....like 5 minutes or less. So it will be hard to get consistent results from roll to roll, because if you're off on your timing you can overdevelop pretty quickly. Also, the contrast can be very high at those dilutions, which some find attractive but this makes it really hard to scan and rein it in in your editor. For scanning it's better to have flatter contrast negs so you get the full range of tones in your scan and don't lose shadows or highlights. You can tweak the contrast and curves later in your editor. Therefore I recommend Rodinal at 1+50 -- the development times are reasonable at about 9 to 11 minutes, which gives you a bit of wiggle room for timing errors (a good thing if you're just learning), and you can get lovely gradations and tonality at that dilution. Still lots of guts and punch, but not soot and chalk.

One BIG tip for Rodinal -- take it gently with agitation. Only 2 very slow inversions every minute. If you use, say, Ilford's or Kodak's inversion regimen you will get way more grain and contrast. Softly softly with Rodinal (BTW, this is straight out of Agfa's tech sheet, so I'm not making this up).

As for water stop vs. acid stop, I use acid stop for all developers except Rodinal. The first few films (FP4) I did in Rodinal were with an acid stop and I got really wierd grain...kind of mushy and clumpy. I'd never seen this before in any developer. Talking to some very experienced photographers, they mentioned that because Rodinal's pH is so high the film can get a pH shock when it hits the acid. Since then I have used a single water bath and agitated for one minute, and the problem went away (no need to do 6 water rinses for stop, BTW...1 will do fine). That said, for any other developer I always use a stop bath.

To be honest, Rodinal can take a bit of practice to master if you're just learning all this. I've been developing films since the '80s, and just started using Rodinal a few years ago and ruined the first couple of films I ran through it. I found that most of the posted development times out there were way too long and gave ungodly amounts of contrast. Cutting them back by 25%, using soft agitation, and higher dilution was what it took to finally tame it.

So using 1+50, the agitation described, and water stop, I now get beautiful sharp negs with fine grain, wonderful deep midtones and shadows, and luminous highlights -- a great combo with FP4.

As for drying, I use just a few drops of wetting agent in the final rinse and hang the films to air dry. Works great. Too much wetting agent and you get residue. And no squeegee for me, thanks.

Hope this helps. Any more questions, just ask.

Regards,
Svend

You get many answers, some of us repeats what others have written, thats a good opportunity for you to decide your solution. I agree with Svend, I have used Rodinal since 1958 with few exeptions. I dont know Fomapan 200, my choise was Agfapan 25( today Rollei 25) Ilford FP4 and kodak tri x8 today Rollei 400 infrared, when redfiltered it gives a dramatic sky. I am happy with stand development and Rollei 400 infrared, look at the massive development chart. If you have the conditions: get a traditionel darkroom, at leat i Denmark the prices are low, I got my Bezeler 4X5 enlarger with 5 Rodenstock lenses for freee from a retired profesionel, that didt not want the troubles with selling it.
I scan my negatives in a Canon 8800 flatbed scanner, the shapness is not good, but I use the scans to decide which ones to work with in the darkroom
I use dishwash sulfo soap in the las rinsing bath
NEVER TOUCH A WET FILM WITH ANY KIND OF SCRAPERS, SPONGES .............
Welcome to a world of another kind of beaty.

---

Last edited by niels hansen; 10-04-2021 at 12:25 AM. Reason: spelling

[fs999]

Why not trying a more green approach to development : Caffenol.

[Cerebum]

@BigMacCam how is it going with the Foma? I ran a roll through my newly done up spotty, pushed to 400. I then did another in my S1a @ 100. The S1a promptly died so I switched that into the spotty and carried on under box speed. No results yet as I will be processing them at my friends, also I haven't finished the roll. Its amazing how selective you are with film. Once they have been processed I will share the results

Re doing up cameras, you really should try this, it is so satisfying. My spotty required a judicious lube and light seals. The leather was also starting to peel so I replaced that too and it looks stellar. The job won't be as good as the pros but I have the satisfaction of knowing I did it. I recently got an MX off eBay. Really clean but the mirror was stuck. It was listed as spares or repair and I got it for £41. The mirror soon freed itself, it was just lack of use, the light seals had turned to goo so they got replaced, and to day I am off to Max Speilman to see if they have any Kodak ultra max. Film is just so addictive, and I am still at the bottom of the curve


Oh 'eck!



---------- Post added 04-10-21 at 01:01 AM ----------

Why not trying a more green approach to development : Caffenol.

We have arranged to do a shoot at a 150yo coffee importer and roastary. We will be shooting on a Leica iii and a Bronica and developing in Baristanol (like caffenol but you use better coffee ). The coffee will be coming from the roaster themselves. We will be using a lightly roasted African bean that is high in acid. Proportion wise, its about 90g of beans per film. Basically it is getting a ten shot espresso that should open its eyes!

[ProfessorBuzz]

As a data point, Pyro staining devlopers cannot use an acid stop bath and use water instead. And for other deveoplers I'd think by the second fill and drain of the tank the developer is so diluted it is insignificant towards developmenting the film more by time the fixer is added.

Data point is fine for what you mention; Rodinal isn't one of them, so an acetic acid stop bath applies.

[Viking42]

We have arranged to do a shoot at a 150yo coffee importer and roastary. We will be shooting on a Leica iii and a Bronica and developing in Baristanol (like caffenol but you use better coffee ). The coffee will be coming from the roaster themselves. We will be using a lightly roasted African bean that is high in acid. Proportion wise, its about 90g of beans per film. Basically it is getting a ten shot espresso that should open its eyes!

Baristanol! Love it! Hip to the max

[BigMackCam]

Wow. You good folks never cease to amaze me with your generosity in sharing knowledge. Thank you all for the great responses!

Here's a great resource:
Beginners Guide to Processing Film - Ilford Photo%

Water doesnt work well as a stop bath - takes too long. Use stop bath. A little Kodak Indicator stop bath goes a long long long way.

I've yet to find a good squeegee. Clean, wet fingers seem to work pretty well.

Many thanks for the Ilford link - that's really useful for a beginner like me! I've read up a little more on the use of water as a stop bath... Some folks really swear by it, others don't. As I understand it, film is porous, and it can take a little while for water to soak in, during which time the developer is still active - hence use of water can result in over-development (less of a problem with higher dilutions, perhaps?) - which ties in with your comment of it taking too long. I'll get myself some proper stop bath and start out with that. Maybe I'll try water once I've got a bit more experience - just to see what results I get. All part of the learning

As for the squeegee, yes - I've read that they need to be kept spotlessly clean (i.e. well-rinsed before and after each use) or scratches can occur.

Use a proper stop bath, costs pennies in use, lasts for ages in concentrate and stops development then and there for accurate timing. The development tank should be fine, but get a washing-up basin or similarly sized to put it in for a water bath to keep your development temperature stable. I washed my negatives in running cold water for a half hour; but don’t start that by pouring tap temperature water straight in. Ease the water temperature down gently especially in winter when your domestic cold supply will be properly cold, otherwise you get reticulation - the emulsion wrinkles like orange peel.

I developed hundreds of metres of FP4 back then in soft water and never used a squeegee, just hung the film vertically and let the wetting agent do the rest. Have fun!!

Thank you, and yes - I'll use proper stop bath until I'm at a point where I can experiment a little. I'd definitely like to try water, just to see what happens... but that's something for a later date, perhaps

Regarding temperature stability, if everything is acclimatised to room temperature before-hand and the temperature isn't changing by more than a degree, is the basin necessary? If so, how do you use it - part fill it with water, allow to reach room temperature, then stand the developing tank in the water between inversions?

I confess I'm not mad keen on the idea of a running water wash, just because of the amount of water used. I know Ilford recommends this approach (I think they even sell a tap attachment for tanks?), but I think I'd prefer to do a few fills and dumps from room temperature water sat waiting in jugs. It seems like it would be kinder to the water supply - plus, we're on a meter

I'll try the no-squeegee approach. I guess I just have to ensure the amount of wetting agent is spot-on!

Oh man! I've just recently took the dive down developing my own B+W at home! I absolutely love it.

I shoot a lot and planned to reuse chemicals...

I purchased an 'Ilford Simplicity + Paterson Film Processing Kit' it came with:
- Super System 4 tank (two reels)
- Ilford Simplicity kit (developer, stopper, fixer, wet agent)
- 3 cylinders graduates
- cassette opener
- stir rod
- thermometer
- film drying clips

I also went out and bought some finer resolution cylinder graduates. I also bought a dark bag. And separate funnels.

That starter kit only comes with enough chemical to develop 2 rolls of 35mm or 1 roll of 120 (unless you reuse; but the small volume mix will get diluted quick).
Therefore, I bought a 500ML bottle of Ilford Ilfostop and a 500ML of Ilford Rapid Fixer.
I bought three 4L jugs. One to hold waste developer, one to hold premixed Stopper (1+19), and the one to hold premixed Fixer (1+4).

I plan to try different developers, but I've started with a Rodinal equivalent as well (Blazinal; 1+20 is common but always check the charts!)

Most developing charts actually recommend 20C, but in my experience B+W is very forgiving.

On the topic of developing charts -> I highly recommend using 'The Massive Developing Chart':
Massive Dev Chart Film Development, Film Developing Database
You can choose your film and developer and it will provide you with the info on how many minutes to develop for what ASA you shot at (sometimes even includes pushed/pulled info too).

My method:

- Load everything up in my dark bag, open the cassette, cut off the leader, load film into reel, cut off end film, load real into tank and lock light tight.
- Look up info on Massive Dev Chart, measure out developer (I usually aim for total 300ML for one 35mm roll; 1+20=21 so 300/21=14.3ML developer, add to large graduate and top up with 20C water to 300ML).
- Pour developer dilution into tank and agitate for ~15 seconds at the top of every minute until entire development time is complete. Pour waste developer into jug.
- Pour 300ML of premixed Stopper into tank, agitate for about 1 minute. Pour back into the Stopper premix.
- Pour 300ML of premixed Fixer into tank, agitate for ~15 seconds at the top of every minute for 4 minutes. Pour back into Fixer premix.
- Fill 2L jug with regular water, add a cap full of wetting agent, stir without creating bubbles. Pour into tank, rinse, repeat until 2L is empty.
- Drum roll as you open the tank to see if you got images!
- Squeegee off film, add weights, and hang to completely dry.

I'm still new to the process, but I believe I can get a good 30 rolls out of those premixed solutions.
I hope using seperate graduates and funnels helps reduce cross mixing and can prolong the solutions.
Take all the jugs to eco centre afterward for proper disposal.

I store my film in archival film sleeves and view them with a light board (tracing board) and a loupe.
I'm still yet to find a satisfactory scanning method. But I've been holding the negative on my light board and setting a tripod to take pictures of the negative with my K-3 III hahah.

Let me know if I can give any pointers!
All the best and good luck!

Oh my, this is a mini tutorial in one post Thanks so much for all the info

I'd already found my way to the Massive Dev Chart, but good to know it's a "go-to" resource for dev times.

Your equipment list is very useful - there are a couple of items I hadn't thought of! How difficult did you find the dark bag at first? At present, I'm aiming to use the same setup as you, largely because it's relatively inexpensive and I don't have a room or area of my home that I'm willing to set up as a darkroom. An alternative would be a "Lab-Box" from ars-imago - but it's expensive, none of the UK stockists currently has any, and buying it from abroad attracts import duties and VAT In any case, it seems like I should at least learn how to do the whole dark-bag thing and earn my home-film-processing merit badge, so to speak

And many thanks for the offer of further pointers. It's much appreciated, and I think I'm going to need them!!

Single water bath, agitate for one minute. Worked for me for over 500 rolls of film.

I stopped using a squeegee early on when grit on the squeegee scratched several films. Air dried after that, but don't overdo the wetting agent or you'll get drying spots.

Never used anything but tap water. And never worried about the hardness or softness of the water. Did most of my film processing in Montreal and Toronto; I think the former's water is a bit harder.

Thanks - that's good to know. As I mentioned above, I'll start off with proper stop bath, but will definitely experiment with water at a later stage... and I'll keep the squeegee risks in mind. Again, I guess I'll have to experiment with squeegee vs air-drying. Perhaps air-drying's where I'll start, and see how I get on with my first couple of rolls.

I scanned a whole bunch of my first foray into film using my K-3 iii last night. I 3D printed negative holders for 35mm and 120 film, cut out spots for them in a sheet of foam board, and then used gaffer tape to attach the foam board to my light board. Now that the K-3 iii can tether to a computer, this was super duper simple and I think I got to the point where I was scanning a 36-exposure roll of 35mm in under 5 minutes. A roll of 120 shot in the 645 takes literally 2 minutes. The thing I forgot to do when scanning last night was to use PixelShift, which Stephen Obermeier had literally just suggested the other day on Facebook. Doh! I suspect that I will eventually want to take multiple shots of each 645 negative and stitch or else use the 645D to shoot my 645 negatives, since 40MP is better than 26MP for 120 film. Lots of evidence says that the resolution on the K-3 iii is right at the sweet spot for 35mm.

I am not going to wade into the holy war over stop bath vs tap water. I read up on things and chose which one I would do.

I selected HC-110 for my developer and got a bunch of pipettes on Amazon to use for measuring it out into a beaker. Using it basically as one-shot in dilution B, but I did have two rolls of 35mm and a roll of 120 all to do last weekend, so I did do them all with one batch of dilution B without incident. (Had to do three runs as the 35mm were Foma 200 and Foma 400 and my tank isn’t big enough to put in 120 and 35mm at the same time.) FYI, the data sheets for Foma 200/Arista EDU 200 say “NR” for HC-110, but I went by the massive dev chart and had no issues.

For storing mixed up chemicals (Ilford Rapid Fixer for my B&W, but I also have a Rollei C-41 kit and will wind up with an E-6 kit before long, too…immersion circulator for sous vide cooking makes the temperature-fussy color processes easy-peasy), I bought empty wine bladders (like those that box wine come in). Super easy to evacuate all the air from them and seal them up. My used fixer is being stored in a hydrogen peroxide bottle since it’s super cheap and safe to just dump down the drain and leave you with a good bottle for not much money.

We have really hard water here, so for chemical mixing I’m starting with distilled water and then will fill those jugs with deionized water from a lab where I work. Rinsing I just use tap water, but then I do finish in a bath with photo flo. Decided against a squeegee based on what I read, but I do use clean hands without rough spots and run the film between my fingers before hanging to dry. This has done well with preventing streaking so far.

Only disaster I’ve run into was my first roll of 120…I took it out of the insert, was trying to snug it up a little bit since that’s what I’d seen online, and I dropped it on the floor and it partially unspooled. Figured the whole roll was toast, but 10 of the 15 frames were fine!

Thanks, and nice work on your digitising setup It's a very similar arrangement to what I'll be using, though I've been a little lazier and bought a film holder rather than 3D-printing one

The wine bladder idea is great! I didn't even know you could buy those (well, not without wine in them ).

If you have an iPhone, here's a handy tip:
In Settings, go to Accessibility, and go to Accessibility Shortcut, turn on Classic Invert.
Triple click the home button.
Now take a regular picture of the negative (or just view the camera).
The images colours are inverted and you can view the film negative properly.

I maintain an Apple-free environment here ... but I've just done a quick Google search and found something similar for Android. Awesome!

With Rodinal, as the kids say nowadays: "expect phat grain" ��.
I would reccomend Legacy Pro L-110 (their "version" of Kodak HC110, $15 bucks for a 16oz bottle on Freestyle & B&H), but since you said youll be developing ~2 rolls a month, it may or may not be worth the extra $2 bucks, mainly due to not knowing the longevity of it but a majority of the reviews Ive seen online have said they finished the bottle in~2 years with good results (even though the bottle did turn a light brownish/caramel color ~7 months of being open, the quality was still good). My bottle lasted ~1 1/2 years but I deved ~60 rolls in that time.

For stop bath, I've used a distilled white vinegar & distilled water mix (4oz vinegar : 6oz distilled water). Plus sides are that a 32 oz bottle is only a buck at the dollar store and ~$3 for a gallon of the store brand version, less water usage, and you can just dump it out after using it, that dont have to worry about storeing another chemical under the sink/ worry getting rid of afterwards.

Thanks for the developer and stop bath tips. I'd heard of folks using a water + white vinegar mix (to 2.5% strength). It would certainly be a convenient solution, but it seems distilled white vinegar isn't so cheap in my locality, and I'm not sure there'd be any financial advantage. Still, it's good to know I could nip down to the store and buy some if I ever run out of stop bath

BigMackCam, if you only intend to shoot and develop small amounts of films, take a look at the new Tetenal Parvovin Tabs (developer), and Tetenal Superfix Tabs (fixer). The tablets can be stored for many years, and one tablet is good for one or two films.

https://tetenal.com/consumer-shop/s-w-chemie/phototabs/

Thanks! That seems like a very convenient solution for someone developing in small volumes, and whilst not the most economical, it's not badly priced - and the storage life is very attractive. One to consider, for sure.

I use Rodinal and have developed without a acid stop bath for years because I didn't want to contaminate the fixer for when I use PMK Pryo. My point is you can successfully develop BW film without an acid stop bath even though it may be more optimum to use it.

Thanks for that. I'll definitely experiment with a water once I've cut my teeth using proper stop bath. Something to do with a test roll where the shots don't really matter, I think

First of all, good on you for taking on b&w film and doing your own developing. It's so rewarding. You will love it.

Some suggestions for you in reply to a few of your points above...

Rodinal is a great developer, and as you've read, it lasts forever. So does HC110. They are both extremely economical to use. I haven't used HC110 yet, but have developed quite a few films in Rodinal. For Rodinal, I would stay away from the 1+20 and 1+25 dilutions as the development times are really really short....like 5 minutes or less. So it will be hard to get consistent results from roll to roll, because if you're off on your timing you can overdevelop pretty quickly. Also, the contrast can be very high at those dilutions, which some find attractive but this makes it really hard to scan and rein it in in your editor. For scanning it's better to have flatter contrast negs so you get the full range of tones in your scan and don't lose shadows or highlights. You can tweak the contrast and curves later in your editor. Therefore I recommend Rodinal at 1+50 -- the development times are reasonable at about 9 to 11 minutes, which gives you a bit of wiggle room for timing errors (a good thing if you're just learning), and you can get lovely gradations and tonality at that dilution. Still lots of guts and punch, but not soot and chalk.

One BIG tip for Rodinal -- take it gently with agitation. Only 2 very slow inversions every minute. If you use, say, Ilford's or Kodak's inversion regimen you will get way more grain and contrast. Softly softly with Rodinal (BTW, this is straight out of Agfa's tech sheet, so I'm not making this up).

As for water stop vs. acid stop, I use acid stop for all developers except Rodinal. The first few films (FP4) I did in Rodinal were with an acid stop and I got really wierd grain...kind of mushy and clumpy. I'd never seen this before in any developer. Talking to some very experienced photographers, they mentioned that because Rodinal's pH is so high the film can get a pH shock when it hits the acid. Since then I have used a single water bath and agitated for one minute, and the problem went away (no need to do 6 water rinses for stop, BTW...1 will do fine). That said, for any other developer I always use a stop bath.

To be honest, Rodinal can take a bit of practice to master if you're just learning all this. I've been developing films since the '80s, and just started using Rodinal a few years ago and ruined the first couple of films I ran through it. I found that most of the posted development times out there were way too long and gave ungodly amounts of contrast. Cutting them back by 25%, using soft agitation, and higher dilution was what it took to finally tame it.

So using 1+50, the agitation described, and water stop, I now get beautiful sharp negs with fine grain, wonderful deep midtones and shadows, and luminous highlights -- a great combo with FP4.

As for drying, I use just a few drops of wetting agent in the final rinse and hang the films to air dry. Works great. Too much wetting agent and you get residue. And no squeegee for me, thanks.

Hope this helps. Any more questions, just ask.

Fantastic info, and many thank for the encouragement

I'm particularly interested in the higher dilution advice. I hadn't thought about the lack of control and consistency with short development times. It makes sense that longer dev times from higher dilutions offer easier consistency and fine-tuning. The contrast issue is one I hadn't though of, and I like the idea of keeping it a bit flatter and tweaking contrast in post if necessary.

The agitation and development time advice for Rodinal is also well-received. Even though some practice is required, I still think Rodinal is where I'd like to start, both for its one-shot convenience and the fact that it's such a well-established standard. It sounds like I should shoot some test rolls for my early developing attempts, though, rather than starting off with photos that are important to me

I really appreciate the offer of further assistance. I just know I'm going to make quite a few mistakes along the way, and whilst I see that as part of the learning process, it's good to have experienced feedback and advice rather than Googling everything!

I use vinegar in my stop bath. One rinse and then one rinse with water. I may have read it here or somewhere else.
how much do I dilute vinegar to make stop bath? | Photrio.com Photography Forums
Used to use a squeegee but not anymore. A good wetting agent means film dries on its own without spots. I use one or two drops of Kodak Photoflo in a final rinse. One bottle is going to last me the rest of my life.

Thanks! Per my earlier comment above, I'm not sure if vinegar is any cheaper for me than purpose-made stop bath, but good to have an alternative that's easy to procure locally.

You get many answers, some of us repeats what others have written, thats a good opportunity for you to decide your solution. I agree with Svend, I have used Rodinal since 1958 with few exeptions. I dont know Fomapan 200, my choise was Agfapan 25( today Rollei 25) Ilford FP4 and kodak tri x8 today Rollei 400 infrared, when redfiltered it gives a dramatic sky. I am happy with stand development and Rollei 400 infrared, look at the massive development chart. If you have the conditions: get a traditionel darkroom, at leat i Denmark the prices are low, I got my Bezeler 4X5 enlarger with 5 Rodenstock lenses for freee from a retired profesionel, that didt not want the troubles with selling it.
I scan my negatives in a Canon 8800 flatbed scanner, the shapness is not good, but I use the scans to decide which ones to work with in the darkroom
I use dishwash sulfo soap in the las rinsing bath
NEVER TOUCH A WET FILM WITH ANY KIND OF SCRAPERS, SPONGES .............
Welcome to a world of another kind of beaty.

Thanks for the tips!

Sadly, I don't have a room or area of my home that's not already in use, and - for the time being, at least - I couldn't justify setting up a dark room. I'll have to go with either a tank and bag, or a Lab-Box. I think it's going to be the tank and bag. Also, whilst I love the idea of creating my own prints and hence keeping the whole workflow entirely analogue, it's a big step too far for me at this stage. Step one is to go with lab development for the next few weeks, perhaps a couple of months, and digitise myself using a DSLR + macro lens and Negative Lab Pro in Lightroom. Step two is home development - and I think that will keep me rather busy for a good while

Why not trying a more green approach to development : Caffenol.

I really like the idea of Caffenol and have seen some great results from it, not least in these forums. Once I've had some success with traditional chemicals, I'll definitely look into it and perhaps give it a try.

As a middle ground, I've been looking at some of the options for "eco" developers. I need to do more research, but it would be nice to use something more environmentally friendly (not to mention more easily disposable) than Rodinal...

@BigMacCam how is it going with the Foma? I ran a roll through my newly done up spotty, pushed to 400. I then did another in my S1a @ 100. The S1a promptly died so I switched that into the spotty and carried on under box speed. No results yet as I will be processing them at my friends, also I haven't finished the roll. Its amazing how selective you are with film. Once they have been processed I will share the results

Re doing up cameras, you really should try this, it is so satisfying. My spotty required a judicious lube and light seals. The leather was also starting to peel so I replaced that too and it looks stellar. The job won't be as good as the pros but I have the satisfaction of knowing I did it. I recently got an MX off eBay. Really clean but the mirror was stuck. It was listed as spares or repair and I got it for £41. The mirror soon freed itself, it was just lack of use, the light seals had turned to goo so they got replaced, and to day I am off to Max Speilman to see if they have any Kodak ultra max. Film is just so addictive, and I am still at the bottom of the curve

Ah, I haven't shot any of the Fomapan 200 yet... I'm slowly burning through some expired (but cold-stored) rolls of cheap Agfa Vista 200 I picked up at Poundland some time back. Just playing around with it, really, so I can get something sent to AG Photolab for development and lab-scanning, then digitise myself and compare their results to mine.

I'd love to try my hand at servicing and/or repairing cameras, but my project list is already way too long I've serviced quite a few lenses - mostly from my Soviet collection - and have plenty more to attend to. I'm hoping to get a few done over Christmas, but my journey into film photography may take priority

I hear there's a colour film shortage at the moment, and that even B&W prices have gone up? I'm OK for now... I have a mix of colour 135 and B&W 120 to keep me going for a little while. Is Max Spielman a good, reasonably priced source for film, or is it more about convenience?

---

Thanks again, everyone. I'm very grateful for the responses... I expect you've saved me some considerable amount of trial and error

[Viking42]

Fantastic info, and many thank for the encouragement

I'm particularly interested in the higher dilution advice. I hadn't thought about the lack of control and consistency with short development times. It makes sense that longer dev times from higher dilutions offer easier consistency and fine-tuning. The contrast issue is one I hadn't though of, and I like the idea of keeping it a bit flatter and tweaking contrast in post if necessary.

The agitation and development time advice for Rodinal is also well-received. Even though some practice is required, I still think Rodinal is where I'd like to start, both for its one-shot convenience and the fact that it's such a well-established standard. It sounds like I should shoot some test rolls for my early developing attempts, though, rather than starting off with photos that are important to me

I really appreciate the offer of further assistance. I just know I'm going to make quite a few mistakes along the way, and whilst I see that as part of the learning process, it's good to have experienced feedback and advice rather than Googling everything!

You are most welcome. Any time. Feel free to PM me with questions if you wish.

Good idea to shoot a few test rolls just to try things out before shooting something valuable. Try scenes with varying contrast levels - e.g. full sun, light overcast, heavy cloud - to see how the film and developer render them. Maybe even shoot the same scene on different days so you can compare directly. This will tell you a lot about what works and what doesn't. BTW, Rodinal at high dilutions (1+50 and higher) acts as a compensating developer and does a great job of holding onto highlights in high contrast scenes. FYI - compensating, if you're not familiar with that term, means a highly dilute developer that exhausts quickly in the highlights (densest areas of the neg) during the resting periods of development (when not agitating), while it continues to work away at shadows and mid-tones. Another good reason to use Rodinal at 1+50 - this makes it a very versatile tool for roll film shooters who often have scenes of varying contrast ratios on the same roll. I use a compensating developer pretty much all the time for roll film.

And yes, do try to keep your negs a bit on the flat, low contrast side for scanning. As long as all the tonal range is captured by the scan you can tweak contrast and curves to your heart's content in your editor. Too much contrast in the neg and you risk losing part of the scale.

Have fun with this!

[cpk]

I confess I'm not mad keen on the idea of a running water wash, just because of the amount of water used. I know Ilford recommends this approach (I think they even sell a tap attachment for tanks?), but I think I'd prefer to do a few fills and dumps from room temperature water sat waiting in jugs. It seems like it would be kinder to the water supply - plus, we're on a meter

When I had a wet darkroom I always used running water to wash the film. I now live in an apartment where I cannot trust the water to be at a constant temperature. I process my film now using water at ambient temperature. I have two 5, maybe 10, gallon jugs in which I keep the water I use for film processing. For washing I do 6 successive water rinses, one minute each with constant agitation, followed with a wetting agent rinse. I discussed this with Ilford years ago. Here is a technical release of theirs:

https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Reducing-Wash-Water.pdf

[Viking42]

When I had a wet darkroom I always used running water to wash the film. I now live in an apartment where I cannot trust the water to be at a constant temperature. I process my film now using water at ambient temperature. I have two 5, maybe 10, gallon jugs in which I keep the water I use for film processing. For washing I do 6 successive water rinses, one minute each with constant agitation, followed with a wetting agent rinse. I discussed this with Ilford years ago. Here is a technical release of theirs:

https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Reducing-Wash-Water.pdf

+1 That Ilford doc is a good one. I've used their film washing method for years (with a bit extra added just to be sure the films are squeaky-clean ) and never had a problem. Saves a ton of water and, as Charles noted, you're assured that the water is a consistent temp throughout.