[BigMackCam]

If that Adox Adofix Plus is a hardening/rapid fixer, perhaps introduce a hypo clearing agent after fixing to reduce the wash time.

Adofix Plus is indeed a rapid fixer. I've not read about "hypo clearing" yet - is there a reason or benefit to it other than reducing wash time, or is it more of a convenience thing?

I purchase 4oz (~120ml) and 8oz (~240ml) brown glass bottles (their advertised size but actually hold a little more) to break down the volume of my stock Rodinal and T-F4 fixer bottles (once they are opened) into smaller, air-tight units with equal volume in each bottle. I remove the air by adding small glass marbles as required to bring the volume to the top in an attempt to keep a good shelf life.

For example, my TF-4 fixer is mixed 1 part fixer plus 3 parts distilled water. So breaking down the stock 1-liter bottle into 250ml air-tight bottles ensures the fixer lasts the advertised shelf life and it's pre measured and ready to mix a new batch when needed.

That's a great idea Perhaps something for me to consider if and when I settle on a long-term choice for my chemicals, as I want to try a few different ones first, and at various dilutions - so the quantities for preparation will differ...

[tuco]

Adofix Plus is indeed a rapid fixer. I've not read about "hypo clearing" yet - is there a reason or benefit to it other than reducing wash time, or is it more of a convenience thing?

I did a quick search but couldn't find Adox's wash time recommendation after using their fixer with film. But Kodak recommends washing 30 minutes after using their rapid fixer. That can be reduced to just 5 minutes of wash time if you use Kodak's Hypo Clearing Agent according to their instructions. That can be convenient.

Everyone says Rodinal has a long shelf life. But back in the days of the original Rodinal, the instruction sheet that came with my bottle of Rodinal said it was only good for 6 months after opening the bottle. Maybe that was to sell more Rodinal. But still I think breaking the developer down into smaller 4 ounce bottles reduces the amount of air the developer is exposed to while being used.

[Viking42]

Mike,

On the subject of fixer and wash times, you really don't need a hardening fixer for films. As tuco mentioned, that would require an extra processing step with hypo clearing agent. I would recommend using Ilford RAPID FIXER, which is a non-hardening fixer (no hypo clearing agent required). You can then use their their quick wash method. I've been using this fixer and wash method for years, and it really works well. Films look the same many years after processing....no visible degradation at all.

Hope this helps. Best of luck with the new adventure! Shooting and developing b&w film is so rewarding, and the images have a look that is unique and special.

[BigMackCam]

I did a quick search but couldn't find Adox's wash time recommendation after using their fixer with film. But Kodak recommends washing 30 minutes after using their rapid fixer. That can be reduced to just 5 minutes of wash time if you use Kodak's Hypo Clearing Agent according to their instructions. That can be convenient.

On the subject of fixer and wash times, you really don't need a hardening fixer for films. As tuco mentioned, that would require an extra processing step with hypo clearing agent. I would recommend using Ilford RAPID FIXER, which is a non-hardening fixer (no hypo clearing agent required). You can then use their their quick wash method. I've been using this fixer and wash method for years, and it really works well. Films look the same many years after processing....no visible degradation at all.

I'm not sure whether Adofix Plus is hardening or non-hardening... I can't find any definitive info confirm one way or the other (though I do know it's a "rapid" fixer). However, Adox has a film processing tips page on its website, which gives the following advice for washing:

WASHING

• You can wash films with running water or with the fill/dump technique
• Special force film washers that get attached to the faucet are very good to ensure proper movement of the water inside the tank. The wash time should be no less than 8 minutes.
• Alternatively, you can fill the tank with water, agitate for two minutes, empty the tank. Repeat at least 5 times with fresh water.
• Using Thio-Clear significantly reduces wash times, as it helps to eliminate residue fixer from the emulsion.
• After the film has been washed, one minute in Adoflo wetting agent is necessary to remove water stains – you don’t want to skip this step!
• If your film base is still pink or blue, this is a residual anti-halation dye. It´s a myth that you have to fix the film until this dye disappears. It quickly fades away under sunlight. The AH dye in the developer and fixer also clear in a few days.
• Some films curl when drying. Placing a clip on the bottom as a weight makes them dry quite flat. The drying environment should be not dusty, as all dust will attach to the wet emulsion.

It's all generic advice based on using the range of Adox film-processing products, and doesn't mention Adofix Plus specifically - but I'm assuming it includes that product. The highlighted steps above suggest five washes of two minutes each with agitation, followed by a one minute final wash with wetting agent, with a recommended use of Adox "Thio-Clear" (which "accelerates and ensures proper elimination of sodium/ammonium thiosulfate (fixer) from the gelatine layer of your films and prints") to reduce wash times. Does this recommendation suggest Adofix Plus is a hardening fixer?

Frankly, the only reason I chose Adofix Plus is that it was the best value rapid fixer for the quantity I wanted, from a company I was already going to be placing an order with (and, hence, included in the shipping price for the rest of the order). They don't stock Ilford Rapid Fixer in smaller than 1 litre quantities. In retrospect, though, there's absolutely no reason I can't buy it somewhere else instead, and based on your advice it seems like this is my best course of action.

What all of this makes me realise is that I need to read up on the chemistry of film processing so I understand it to some extent, rather than blindly picking out products

Thank you both!

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Last edited by BigMackCam; 11-08-2021 at 12:45 PM.

[Viking42]

That's a lot of washing Mike - 10 minutes continuous agitation, or 8 minutes with a wash hose. I see from your other thread that you're already familiar with the Ilford wash technique. It's a heckuva lot less labour-intensive than Adox, and uses far less water.

Interesting that Adox recommend such a long wash - looking at the SDS for Adofix vs. Ilford Rapid shows almost identical ingredients, save for Sodium sulphite (Adox) vs. Sodium bisulphite (Ilford). Perhaps it's the latter that allows Ilford to recommend a wash that's so quick? I'm no chemistry expert, so don't want to guess here.

If you can get a 500ml bottle of Ilford Rapid then you get 60 films out of it -- 10 more than Adox. Another good reason to use it...maybe makes it more economical too?

[tuco]

I always like to point out in these kinds of conversation is the importance of understanding what film developer agitation profile you are using and does it match the source's agitation profile that they used to established the film development time. Using a development time published from, say, Kodak or Ilford, you want to use their 'standard agitation profile'. Also it is worth knowing what contrast index that development time is for (condenser vs diffusion enlarger) if you are doing old-school wet prints.

[Viking42]

I always like to point out in these kinds of conversation is the importance of understanding what film developer agitation profile you are using and does it match the source's agitation profile that they used to established the film development time. Using a development time published from, say, Kodak or Ilford, you want to use their 'standard agitation profile'. Also it is worth knowing what contrast index that development time is for (condenser vs diffusion enlarger) if you are doing old-school wet prints.

Excellent point tuco! This is especially relevant to Rodinal, which requires VERY gentle agitation, as per Agfa's own literature. If you overdo it then things will go badly. Similarly, for Tmax films it seems they really come alive when agitated per Kodak's much more aggressive regimen.

EDIT: that reference to Tmax was meant to apply to Kodak or other developers (e.g. D76, HC110), and was NOT referring to Tmax in Rodinal. For any film in Rodinal, follow Agfa's recommended gentle agitation. Sorry for the confusion.

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Last edited by Viking42; 11-08-2021 at 03:46 PM.

[tuco]

Excellent point tuco! This is especially relevant to Rodinal, which requires VERY gentle agitation, as per Agfa's own literature. If you overdo it then things will go badly. Similarly, for Tmax films it seems they really come alive when agitated per Kodak's much more aggressive regimen.

Yes Rodinal is sensitive to how much, how often and how vigorous you agitate the film more than most, I think.

Inside the box my of my 120 roll film Rollei Retro 80S is a chart of development times with a lot of different developers including R09/Rodinal. But they don't say what agitation profile was used on the box or if more than one profile was used with all those different developers listed. It would be nice if they made a note one way or the other on that. But I do know an Ilford agitation profile work well for first time developing with D-23 and RR 80S listed development time.

Yeah Kodak says to increase the number of inversions performed for T-Max films from typically 3 to 5 inversion cycles within 5 seconds every 30 seconds meaning a more vigorous agitation profile too.

[Viking42]

tuco, Mike - here is the instruction sheet for Rodinal:

https://www.fotoimpex.com/shop/images/products/media/56415_4_PDF-Datenblatt.pdf

It says agitate continuously for the first minute, then one tilt every 30 seconds. That tilt should be a nice gentle slow inversion.

I follow this regimen, and when used with 1+50 dilution it gives very nice negs with manageable contrast.

BTW, many of the posted development times for Rodinal that you find on the web seem to be way too long. I had to cut back my times for FP4 and PanF by about 25% to get good contrast -- still with nice gutsy tones, but not overblown chalk and soot like my first attempts. If I recall correctly, final times were around 9 or 10 minutes for these films, at 1+50 and gentle agitation.

Hope this helps.

---------- Post added 8th Nov 2021 at 18:49 ----------

Yeah Kodak says to increase the number of inversions performed for T-Max films from typically 3 to 5 inversion cycles within 5 seconds every 30 seconds meaning a more vigorous agitation profile too.

Yes, exactly right. That's pretty vigorous handling.

FYI, I plan to try that soon with TMY-2 to see if I can get more character out of it. Up to now I've always used Ilford's agitation pattern, and haven't had too many inspiring results with TMX or TMY, so am hoping this is the answer....agitate the heck out of it!

[tuco]

It says agitate continuously for the first minute, then one tilt every 30 seconds. That tilt should be a nice gentle slow inversion.

Just an FYI. In the zone system, a good development time is when a target is metered and placed at zone 8 and then developed until the target measures a density of say 1.25 which falls between a diffusion and condenser enlarger contrast index range. More than one agitation profile can get you there. You'll just have a different developing time if the profiles differ significantly enough.

[stevebrot]

Rather than the overpriced CineStill heating device, get an inexpensive immersion circulator designed for cooking sous vide. I have had one for a while that I use for cooking, and now I use it for a water bath for C-41 chemistry. I’ve also used it to keep B&W chemistry at 68ºF now that my house is running a bit below that temp.

What I did too! Works quite nicely.


Steve

[Viking42]

Just an FYI. In the zone system, a good development time is when a target is metered and placed at zone 8 and then developed until the target measures a density of say 1.25 which falls between a diffusion and condenser enlarger contrast index range. More than one agitation profile can get you there. You'll just have a different developing time if the profiles differ significantly enough.

For sure - you are quite right. However, that kind of stuff gets way more technical than I want to make this hobby . I think the zone system is a fantastic way of working, and I use it's most basic principles every time I shoot film, esp. medium format when I work slowly and methodically with a spot meter to make every shot count. But I don't shoot large format, so of course with roll film the zone system has its limits. I get around a lot of roll film's limitations by using compensating developers, films with a lot of latitude, and exposure and developing techniques that give me the punchy tones I want whilst keeping highlights and shadows in check. As for agitation, I like to keep it simple and follow what the manufacturers recommend - my first rolls using Rodinal taught me that! It took few years to get a look out of certain films that I like, and it's been fun experimenting. I still have a few film-developer combos I want to try, but I'm more or less happy with where I am now.

EDIT: just want to add, that if I shot large format I would absolutely use the zone system....up to a point . I think if I went down the rabbit hole of densitometry and all that, it would drive me to distraction.


Mike - apologies for the thread drift

[BigMackCam]

Mike - apologies for the thread drift

Not at all... This is interesting stuff I did chuckle a little, though... You talk about not wanting to get too technical, and even the basic stuff seems technical to me right now Still, I know more today than I did a week or two back, so that's something... and I'm a fast learner

I ordered most of my things today... Everything except the plastic jugs, which I'll pick up at my local discount store, and the chemicals (I'm still working out the quantities I need - probably much less than I originally anticipated for developer, and more than I originally thought for fixer ).

[Viking42]

Not at all... This is interesting stuff I did chuckle a little, though... You talk about not wanting to get too technical, and even the basic stuff seems technical to me right now Still, I know more today than I did a week or two back, so that's something... and I'm a fast learner

I ordered most of my things today... Everything except the plastic jugs, which I'll pick up at my local discount store, and the chemicals (I'm still working out the quantities I need - probably much less than I originally anticipated for developer, and more than I originally thought for fixer ).

Good one! What developer and fixer did you end up going with?

[BigMackCam]

Good one! What developer and fixer did you end up going with?

I ordered everything except the plastic jugs and the chemicals - I'll be ordering the latter this evening, or perhaps tomorrow morning.

I'm sticking with Rodinal liquid concentrate for the developer (or, rather, Adox Adonal - which is apparently what it's called now), but I'll be going with Ilford Rapid Fixer based on your recommendation and some further reading since I'll get some wetting agent at the same time - probably Adox's own, but may hold off on the stop bath, as per our previous discussions it seems I should be OK (perhaps even better off) with a water stop for Rodinal - especially given the 1+50 dilution I'll be using.

Thanks so much for all your advice thus far, Svend. It'll surely save me from some mistakes, and whilst making mistakes can be a good way to learn, at this early stage it would be nice to get a couple of films developed with at least reasonable success