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04-22-2022, 11:26 AM - 1 Like   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I was kidding about using my phone for scanning, I have much better: DFA100 macro on Pentax K-1 pixel shift, I experimented with it for flat (translation) scanning and stitching
Biz, please indicate when you're joking in posts. It's not obvious... I took your comments sincerely and - in the helpful spirit of these forums - spent time advising accordingly, for your benefit. I'm now wondering how often I and others have engaged in discussion with you in the past, investing time and effort in response, when in fact you were joking and that time and effort was wasted

A "wink" emoji, or even more explicitly adding "(joking!)" to relevant points in your post would be considerate of fellow members, and greatly appreciated (by me, at the very least)...


Last edited by BigMackCam; 04-22-2022 at 11:33 AM.
04-22-2022, 11:34 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
you already have your home-made large-format camera with lens, or you must be close to completing it, yes?
Yes, I have a cardboard box large format camera, with a 330mm lens, cardboard aperture, focused at infinity, which works when looking on the "ground glass" with my x 15 magnifying loupe, it's sharp. Now, cardboard is a bit shaky, but I can make a new one with plywood. And I need to replace the "ground glass" by a film holder, so I actually need to make a kind of film holder than holds a ground glass, and duplicate the same film holder (same size) to hold film sheets.
04-22-2022, 11:36 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Yes, I have a cardboard box large format camera, with a 330mm lens, cardboard aperture, focused at infinity, which works when looking on the "ground glass" with my x 15 magnifying loupe, it's sharp. Now, cardboard is a bit shaky, but I can make a new one with plywood. And I need to replace the "ground glass" by a film holder, so I actually need to make a kind of film holder than holds a ground glass, and duplicate the same film holder (same size) to hold film sheets.
See above, biz - is this sincere, or joking? We spoke at length about this in another thread, so I'm keen to know...
04-22-2022, 11:38 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
I took your comments sincerely and - in the helpful spirit of these forums - spent time advising accordingly, for your benefit. I'm now wondering how often I and others have engaged in discussion with you in the past, investing time and effort in response, when in fact you were joking and that time and effort was wasted
My comment about using a smartphone camera for scanning is not very serious, but if I didn't have a Pentax camera, the phone could work, it can focus very close and it is 20Mpixels, can do A4 prints, not bad, so if I'd take 10 exposures on the top of a film, that would be the equivalent areas of 10 x A4 prints... 200Mpixels. I was thinking that someone who wouldn't have a DSLR, could still shoot film and scan films with his phone.

---------- Post added 22-04-22 at 20:40 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
See above, biz - is this sincere, or joking? We spoke at length about this in another thread, so I'm keen to know...
No joke, I made a cardboard box camera with a 330mm lens and it works. How I came to ask questions about film development? I thought, "hum, I see the picture upside down, but now how do I capture that image", and then I thought "I need some film".

/* Beginning of joke: I'm at the stage of camera invention in the 1830, I re-discovered the camera obscura and now I'm trying to figure out how to capture the image on a substrate. With the help of the internet, I'm catching up quickly on history , I skipped the daguerreotype and wet collodion processes, direct to silver halide film ! Now if you recommend to use 135 rolls, you are catapulting me in the years around 1968 - 1980 . End of joke */


Last edited by biz-engineer; 04-22-2022 at 11:50 AM.
04-22-2022, 11:50 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
No joke, I made a cardboard box camera with a 330mm lens and it works. How I came to ask questions about film development? I thought, "hum, I see the picture upside down, but now how do I capture that image", and then I thought "I need some film". I'm at the stage of camera invention in the 1830, I re-discovered the camera obscura and now I'm trying to figure out how to capture the image on a substrate. With the help of the internet, I'm catching up quickly on history.
And is the cardboard / plywood large format camera what you're intending to use? Because, again, in our earlier exchanges regarding which format to start with and the costs involved, it makes a big difference if you're going to use a home-made large format camera (very little cost to complete what you've already started, financially at least), or if you're going to buy one (hundreds of euros minimum used, over a thousand and up if you buy new) - versus picking up an inexpensive 120 or 135 camera and shooting rolls while you get used to developing and digitising. Your cardboard box camera sounds interesting and a great experiment, but it doesn't gel with your desire for maximum image quality, especially for landscapes with considerable depth-of-field (unless you've incorporated movements into the front and/or rear standards)...

I'm confused... and I'm sure other members - who might read these posts and genuinely wish to help - will be too...
04-22-2022, 11:53 AM - 2 Likes   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
... I was thinking about stop bath , rinse, and skip the fixer stage, scan the film rapidly as soon as dry, not expecting any sort of archival of films. But apparently (I read online) that the fixer has an impact on contrast / definition in shadows, so that fix stage can't really be skipped.
As long as you're not joking about this too, you'll only try this once. If you don't fix the film, the unfogged silver halide will still be in the emulsion, leaving an opaque deposit behind. You can't get away from using fixer to clear that silver halide from the negatives or they'll be unusable.
04-22-2022, 12:01 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
I'm confused... and I'm sure other members - who might read these posts and genuinely wish to help - will be too...
My primary interest is to learn. I could buy an LF camera already made, send the films to a lab for development and scanning, but I would learn nothing. By building this experimentation camera, I learned a lot, it made me ask myself a lot of questions, such as "where should I place the aperture?", "how does a leaf shutter works?" "Can I make a shutter myself?" "What is a guillotine shutter?", "what should be the distance between the film plane and the lens?", "I have to move the lens closer to the film plane to focus the lens, why?", "if the sensor is 4x5" how does that shift my shutter speeds in general photographic situations, compared to 24x36mm format?", "For what kind of photography large format suitable?" (Now I see the benefit of smaller formats, rapid and small), "how does film development works?". When I buy a camera to Ricoh, I open the box, put a charged battery into it, press the shutter button and I get a picture, without knowing much about what's happening inside the box.

---------- Post added 22-04-22 at 21:06 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by StiffLegged Quote
As long as you're not joking about this too, you'll only try this once. If you don't fix the film, the unfogged silver halide will still be in the emulsion, leaving an opaque deposit behind. You can't get away from using fixer to clear that silver halide from the negatives or they'll be unusable.
No I wasn't joking about not using a fixer. My reasoning was that if a developer is needed to turn film emulsion into dark, exposing the film to light after stopping the development wouldn't change the appearance of the film unless plunged into developer again. I thought the fixer was only for archival purposes, keep the developed films for many years. I thought I could dry the film and scan it and then I consider not to use that film in the future. Now if you say that fixing has an effect on film image, I understand that fixing is absolutely necessary. Thanks for the precision.


Last edited by biz-engineer; 04-22-2022 at 12:09 PM.
04-22-2022, 12:11 PM - 1 Like   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
My primary interest is to learn. I could buy an LF camera already made, send the films to a lab for development and scanning, but I would learn nothing. By building this experimentation camera, I learned a lot, it made me ask myself a lot of questions, such as "where should I place the aperture?", "how does a leaf shutter works?" "Can I make a shutter myself?" "What is a guillotine shutter?", "what should be the distance between the film plane and the lens?", "I have to move the lens closer to the film plane to focus the lens, why?", "if the sensor is 4x5" how does that shift my shutter speeds in general photographic situations, compared to 24x36mm format?", "For what kind of photography large format suitable?" (Now I see the benefit of smaller formats, rapid and small), "how does film development works?". When I buy a camera to Ricoh, I open the box, put a charged battery into it, press the shutter button and I get a picture, without knowing much about what's happening inside the box.
I understand the motivation for experimentation and learning, biz, and applaud your efforts to that end - I'm just confused now about earlier aspects of this thread and how they tie up with that.

Rather than concerning myself with where my time and input was frutifully invested and where it was wasted, I'll draw a line under my involvement here and step out of this particular thread...

Last edited by BigMackCam; 04-22-2022 at 12:21 PM.
04-22-2022, 01:18 PM - 5 Likes   #39
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Biz, from my own point of view it's now appearing the entire thread premise may have been more in jest than sincere?

You've long preached quality and detail as your primary consideration, your K1's not being quite up to snuff and waiting on a Pentax MF or bolting for another brand with higher resolution and quality if Pentax doesn't come thru, yet now proclaiming just the opposite with homemade taped-up cardboard cameras, sub-par smartphone scanning in place of proper gear, and half-processed film all being potentially acceptable to you?

I'm not seeing any benefit to a discussion continuing, the thrust of the thread changing direction, and with more than one member frustrated at finding out some of your comments weren't to be taken seriously Biz, and that's after they spent some significant time in responding to what appears in hindsight wasn't an honest inquiry. Even the most basic questions such as the necessity for fixers would have already been answered if you had been doing the initial research into B&W processing you say you had already done.

Our members do try to be helpful when sincere questions are asked and advice wanted. Please don't take advantage of their goodwill if that's what you're doing.
04-22-2022, 05:03 PM   #40
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Well I am amazed about these exaggerated reactions, you guys look seriously wrong-footed. What's wrong with building a cardboard camera to learn about all aspects, or considering a smartphone for scanning, or even to circumvent fixing a film in some way (I found it a very interesting thought). Brainstorming can lead to contradictory or uncommon lines of thought, and some people like to do that permanently. Elon Musk is the richest person on earth, how do you think he achieved that, simply because he doesn't follow the 'rules' everybody else is tied to. Just try to accept not everybody is following the standard patterns.

Personally I find a thread like this much more interesting than the endless 'discussions' about auto-focusing, flippy screens, and J-Limited crap going around in circles for weeks and months.
04-22-2022, 05:28 PM - 1 Like   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kobayashi.K Quote
Well I am amazed about these exaggerated reactions, you guys look seriously wrong-footed. What's wrong with building a cardboard camera to learn about all aspects, or considering a smartphone for scanning, or even to circumvent fixing a film in some way (I found it a very interesting thought).
In isolation each of those actions could be commendable ones, so if the thread existed in a vacuum we could be closer to agreeing with each other. Thanks for posting a different take on it.

Last edited by gatorguy; 04-22-2022 at 06:03 PM.
04-22-2022, 10:55 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by gatorguy Quote
Biz, from my own point of view it's now appearing the entire thread premise may have been more in jest than sincere?
Thanks for answers of forum members in that thread, and internet searches, I could crystalize how I can do develop my own b&w films are home and what I need to buy for do so. At from a few comments above, I think you and bigmac are looking for trouble where there is not. I don't know what you didn't like about making my own view camera and experimenting with analog film. Are you upset because I wouldn't buy a Pentax film camera? Please clarify what your problem is (for me there is no problem at all). Thanks.

---------- Post added 23-04-22 at 08:08 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Kobayashi.K Quote
Well I am amazed about these exaggerated reactions, you guys look seriously wrong-footed. What's wrong with building a cardboard camera to learn about all aspects, or considering a smartphone for scanning, or even to circumvent fixing a film in some way (I found it a very interesting thought). Brainstorming can lead to contradictory or uncommon lines of thought, and some people like to do that permanently.
Exactly. I'm learning about the film process. I shoot 135 film twenty five years ago with a Minolta Riva Zoom Pico P&S camera, at the time I gave my color film rolls (mostly Fujifilm) to the lab. There were labs everywhere.., at the supermarkets, I just handed my rolls there when I was shopping and picked up the photos and film in envelopes the week after when I returned shopping at the same supermarket. I didn't learn anything about film development. Except now, in 2022, the situation is different, as there is no photo lab at the supermarket anymore, I'd have to send the film via post, wait weeks, perhaps months, get the films back, not as easy as it used to be. So, I want to develop film at home so I can have control when I do it. And obviously I need to know what to buy and how much it costs. The choice of camera is another topic. I already have a Pentax K1, so I am not interested in shooting 135 film again. I want to shoot 4x5 film or larger (although if 4x5 give good enough results for me, I'd not go larger), I don't want to buy a camera just for testing if 4x5 is the right format for me, so I play with DIY camera , I learn , and when I understand the pros & cons I'm ready to buy a proper camera that suit what I want to do.
04-22-2022, 11:10 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Thanks for answers of forum members in that thread, and internet searches, I could crystalize how I can do develop my own b&w films are home and what I need to buy for do so. At from a few comments above, I think you and bigmac are looking for trouble where there is not. I don't know what you didn't like about making my own view camera and experimenting with analog film. Are you upset because I wouldn't buy a Pentax film camera? Please clarify what your problem is (for me there is no problem at all). Thanks.
I wasn't looking for trouble, biz. I simply didn't appreciate what I interpreted (correctly or otherwise) as a lack of sincerity (perhaps, more charitably, a lack of clarity) on what's factual and what's "tongue in cheek" in your earlier posts, and what you're actually trying to achieve in all this given the context of your other recent posts on image quality - meaning time invested by me and others providing information and advice may not be well spent.

Your experiments with home-made cameras are fascinating, and I've previously stated my support for this and your other recent exploits (e.g. multi-camera stitching). I think your curiosity in experimenting with film developing methods outside the well-established and well-tested norms is interesting too, though perhaps not the best way to get started with film.

I'll make this my last comment on the matter and resign from the thread as previously indicated

Last edited by BigMackCam; 04-22-2022 at 11:36 PM.
04-22-2022, 11:15 PM - 1 Like   #44
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--- I'd like to conclude. Thanks a lot to all contributors in this thread. Thanks to inputs in this thread from people experienced with film development, researching online and books, I figured out what I need to develop film at home, and how much it would cost, the cost is much more reasonable than what I initially thought. Thanks again to all for your time and contribution.
04-23-2022, 03:15 AM   #45
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Thanks for providing some clarity Biz. Perhaps post up photos of your camera setup and start a thread on the project if you wish. I'm certain there are other members who would benefit from the experiment if you were to share details and images of your progress with it. You could assist others who might wish to do the same, a source of inspiration for those of us interested in the roots of photography.

Beginning that thread would be an admirable contribution to the forums, and much appreciated. You've already put in a good part of the work, so consider sharing it with others.

So as you suggested, and with your current inquiry answered, we'll go ahead and close this thread and look forward to seeing what you've put together so far in a new one.

Last edited by gatorguy; 04-23-2022 at 06:37 AM.
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