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07-22-2022, 05:41 PM   #1
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What's going on here? Uneven development on first five or so frames

I have an odd issue that I don't think I've seen before. I have a bottle of Clayton F76+ that I just purchased and it "seems good". Across a number of different rolls of film, and I believe from two different cameras that have not let me down before, the first five or size frames of the roll are not developed evenly. Those frames are noticeably darker/thicker, and then that thickness gives way to what looks like normal exposure/development/etc. I can process around these with my digital workflow but I really don't think that's optimal.


Here's what a few frames look like with the situation shifting from overly thick to more normal going left to right;



It's also a top to bottom, as shown in that image, issue. This image above is brighter than real life; it's hard to see the frame lines on the roll in normal lighting. I used my 35mm single-roll AP development tank, 30ml of fresh developer + 270ml distilled water. The rest of the roll seems fine if slightly thin, which is kind of normal for pushed Fomapan 400 in my experience. It's done this on other rolls that were not pushed, nothing funny in my dev scheme. It's also done this when I with my old two-roll AP tank, 50ml of F76 and 450ml water.


I kind of want to blame the developer. I have been sitting on an unopened bottle of Legacy Pro L-110 developer that I purchased in 2020 and could try throwing a test roll of something in that to see what happens. I could take a couple of frames worth of film out of a cassette in my dark room and throw it in some F76 with a splash of water and see if it goes black or not after exposing it to light. Any other suggestions?

Thanks!

07-22-2022, 06:27 PM   #2
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Need to see the whole roll really, but looks like light leak or fogging to me. Dark sprockets won't be easily be caused by any developer issues.
07-22-2022, 07:35 PM   #3
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Curious because it looks both like underdeveloped areas and fogging. The bottom perf edge looks like it was fogged by something but into the image (and some portions of the frame lines) there are areas which appear like they didn't receive enough development. It might be an agitation issue and it's possible that the film got out of the track and came into contact with the film below it (or above it). This would prevent developer from getting to that portion of the emulsion but doesn't explain the "fog". I would think if it were a developer issue, it would have affected the entire roll. For testing, I would include an image on the test strip just so you can see the effects over a range of densities. If in fact it is fogging, the issue could be your camera and not the development.
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Last edited by Bob 256; 07-22-2022 at 07:49 PM.
07-23-2022, 12:35 AM   #4
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That looks like a light leak somewhere, the perforated edges are darkened. Don’t know whether the camera, film cassette or changing bag/darkroom is at fault or if something like a phone or digital watch has briefly lit up while the film was being loaded into the cassette or film spiral, but I’d start looking for a cause of a light leak.

Or a luminous watch face?

07-23-2022, 07:35 AM   #5
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If it was weak developer from age, I'd suspect the entire roll would be affected. As Bob points out, it could be a number of things. And pushing fast film can produce a slight overall fog too but not so severe and locally as in your case.. You can fog film before or during development from either a darkroom that is not dark enough or light entered the tank while developing. Edge lines around the sprocket holes would be a good indicator of the latter. I'd load a test roll and try the process again.
07-23-2022, 08:10 AM   #6
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The example roll was a lot of night shooting which can lead to underexposure even with pushing. I'll grab a roll of film out of the freezer later today and shoot it in normal daylight conditions at box speed and see what happens.


I'll inspect the light seals on the camera as well. I did replace the seals about four years ago, so they're not new, but not that old either.


If it does this same thing again I could run a test roll through a different camera. Wishing I had some 12 exposure rolls of film to burn instead of 24's...
07-23-2022, 08:17 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by pres589 Quote
........................... Wishing I had some 12 exposure rolls of film to burn instead of 24's...
You could run a test roll using as many frames as you want and then in a good darkroom, take it out of the camera before rewinding and snip off the exposed section for development. The you can trim up the end sticking out of the cartridge (out of the darkoom) and continue to use what film is left.

One other possibility could be that your film is bad - either out of date or it got fogged somehow before you ever used it. You mentioned night shooting maybe implying higher speed film which is more prone to going bad or fogging with light leaks or even radiation.

07-23-2022, 08:27 AM   #8
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Right, I'll try ending the first test at 8 frames, good suggestion. This issue has been across multiple rolls of film including some 200 ISO C-41 which I also developed in F76+. All had the same issue over generally similar number of frames.

The light seal running across the top of the film door, the long way, so just under the viewfinder seems quite thin. I'll replace it and the lower one as well before shooting the first test shots.
07-23-2022, 08:52 AM   #9
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Typ heat or age fog will be consistent end to end, top to bottom, and it could be highlighted by extended development.


You can test the seals by using black photo tape, or other opaque low tack tapes (blue painters tape with a strip of Al foil in the center does it), or just wrapping the back with a sheet of foil for the first half of a roll or snip test. Load the camera in as little light as possible and wrap immediately. Replacing light seals on older bodies is not a bad routine maintenance thing to do, at this stage with what we know your issue could be post camera -ie darkroom related.

Last edited by JohnMc; 07-23-2022 at 08:54 AM. Reason: bolding
07-23-2022, 08:59 AM   #10
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A different camera would rule out the light seals in the camera.

If it’s always the first part of the roll, that suggests something in the canister light seal or something in your loading process, though in my experience that would tend to ruin the other end of the roll unless the light leak in the tank is in the middle of it.

I have had camera light leaks show up only on bright days… maybe if you have a leaky door seal it could do that when you load it because you’re shooting in low light otherwise…

-Eric
07-23-2022, 09:19 AM - 1 Like   #11
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It is a light seal issue. If just a little light gets in, the severity depends on how long the camera was sitting between exposures. If you are walking around with the camera for a while before taking pictures and then shoot the whole roll the first part of the roll will be fogged and not the last. There are really a ton of variables relating to where the sun was where were you standing etc. Load the camera with film and fire a flash toward the back of the camera from various angles. You will see of there are leaks. Replace all the seals.
07-24-2022, 02:54 PM   #12
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The side seals look to be in good condition. I replaced the top and bottom seals that mate with the flange on the film door. Shot a roll of Superia 400 through it because I've got a lot of the stuff and I'm fine with using it for testing purpose. Roll came out good as far as the issue above is concerned. I'll revisit this when I get a fresh roll of black and white through the thing.

Thanks to everyone that contributed to this thread.
08-09-2022, 07:07 PM   #13
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Alright, I'm still fighting this, and I'm needing to come back for ideas. I put all new seals across the back of the camera last night. I used this as guidance ( USCamera Light Seal Placement Guide | Ricoh XR7USCamera ) and cut and placed a seal just like what they're describing. The only place I deviated is that I used 3mm thick foam at the seal on the right hand side next to the take up spool where the door hinge is. This is what I used in that same spot before and didn't have problems so I figured I would do it again there.


I loaded a brand new roll of Arista Edu 400 (it expires years from now, I got 10 rolls last week and they went straight into the freezer when they got to my house) into the camera last night. When loading I put the film leader into the take up spool, shot one frame, advanced to a second frame and closed the door. The door feels good on the open & close, I don't think there's any hangups on the seals, and I don't see any of the shiny backing showing (so the seals aren't twisted or anything like that, that I can tell anyway). I waited until today after work so I could take the camera outside and shoot in sunlight. I developed the roll this evening and hung it up for a bit before taking the following pictures. This is not what I was hoping to see.




Sorry for the reflection but it's not really hiding anything. This is the start of the roll. There's a jet black section at the start of the roll that seems like it would be a few frame's worth of film. Then, looking at the film with a bright light behind it, there's a very dark grey section that runs for about 5 and a half frames. This has been extremely consistent across a number of rolls that I have developed lately which were shot over the last year or so. I'd call this 8 or 9 frames taken out by whatever is going on here.




This is the next section of frames which have discernible exposures. I see fogging along one edge through most of these frames.




This is the end of the roll. Things seem fine here all the way around these frames.



What's my next step? I have a couple other 35mm cameras I could run a roll through if there's a question about my technique in handling and developing film. The camera I've been using seems like it's shifting shutter speeds properly though I don't have a great way to really check it myself. Batteries are not very old in it (electronic shutter in this camera). The extreme repeatability of these issues across rolls makes me think this isn't a light seal issue (besides perhaps the fogging along the one set of sprocket perforations). The things shown in that first image look exactly like the previous rolls I've developed.


Thanks again.
08-09-2022, 08:43 PM   #14
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Looks like light and chemical/wet issues. Describe your processing equip and technique. What wast the dwell time between sets of 3 exposures for the roll - IOW how long were the out of the film canister? Doesn't really look like the camera to me, from here. You could verify it's not your darkroom by taking it to a lab which I believe you still have avail local. Take your roll along with you and I bet they'd be happy to help.


Do you have a flatbed scanner you use to layout the roll on for a consistent, reflection free viewing? Some of what I see as wet issues may be reflections, or not.
08-09-2022, 09:05 PM   #15
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The 24 shot roll I shot today was kept in its individual box in the freezer. It was taken out of the canister only after sitting on the counter for about five minutes to let the canister warm up a little to make it easier to get the cap off. Film loaded, the camera sat in my kitchen for almost 24 hours. Shot the roll over the course of about 15 minutes, start to finish. Took the roll out of the camera in my "darkroom" bathroom. That bathroom has one small window which I covered with a pair of black-out curtains along with another curtain over the door. The room on the other side of the bathroom door was nearly blacked out as well. With the window and door covered I stood in the bathroom for a number of minutes (no clocks or sources of light) looking for any discernible source of light. Sometimes I'll end up seeing a light spot in the room after my eyes have adjusted; I didn't see anything like that this evening.


I used a single roll sized AP development tank. The film was out of the cassette and into the tank with the lid screwed on ASAP. I then developed it in the other bathroom where I keep my chemicals. I use a the other bathroom because it has a larger window and would be harder to make completely dark. 30ml Clayton F76, 270ml distilled water, developer in the tank for 8 minutes. 30 inversions to start and then three inversions every minute after initial developer dump into the tank. Nothing vigorous with the developer. Water stop after dumping the developer, I filled the tank, shook it a bit, dumped and refilled with fresh water and gave it 30 inversions before dumping again and then pouring in fixer. Clayton Rapid Fixer, which I've always used, and I always dump a little out of the tank after 30 inversions then letting it stand for about 4 more minutes. So I'm reusing most of the fixer from the tank but ditching a little each time so eventually I add more fresh fixer. After that it was a series of fresh water / 30 inversion / dump / repeat cycles.


I'm thinking I should load up one of my other cameras and doing the same as the above to see if it comes out the same or not. I'm reluctant to believe it's my handling because of how every roll is coming out the same. At the same time... I'm really at a loss here, so anything seems like it should be considered.

I can take the roll above to work and lay it across a photo copier and capture that to .pdf and work that into similar images as the above. The other option just laying it out on my light box and taking a series of pictures, which is how I got the picture in my first post in this thread. Which seems best?

I can talk to a couple of places here in the city (Wichita) but I don't hold high hopes that they'd provide useful feedback.
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