Darkroom virgin, chemical/paper advice

Vendee · 06-25-2009, 01:50 PM

Sorry if this is slightly OT but it relates to my ME Super.

For the last six weeks I've been gathering everything I need to develop and print my own b&w film. I've got most of the gear together and now its time to get the chemicals and paper. Problem is, I've never done this before.

I've got several rolls of Agfa APX 100 which I'm currently shooting (I've also got some Kodak Tri-x 400). I was originally planing to use Rodinal film developer but I may use Fomadon R09 which I believe is very similar to Rodinal but cheaper.

Now the questions:- What about the stopbath and fixer? Does it matter what brands/type I use?

And for the printing:- what developer should I use? Can the stopbath and fixer used in the film developing be be used for printing?

Finally, what about paper? I'd like to produce 8x10 prints. From what I read, warm tone is better for portraits etc. What is the difference between resin coated and fibre papers.

Lots of questions I know. Thanks for your patience.

GeneV · 06-25-2009, 01:52 PM

This thread probably belongs in this forum somewhere Pentax Film SLR Discussion - PentaxForums.com

Vendee · 06-25-2009, 02:10 PM

Doh, sorry, I meant to post it in Film SLR discussion. That will teach me to post when I'm tired. Could someone please move it for me?

Cosmo · 06-25-2009, 02:37 PM

I'm pretty sure it won't matter what stop and fix you use.

Stop bath can be used for both film and prints. Some developers can be used for both, chack the label for which ones can.

Just get some Ilford multigrade IV paper to start with.

jimH · 06-25-2009, 02:44 PM

Go to Photographers Formulary for more information on chemicals.

Photographic chemicals, photo chemistry, photo processing equipment, photo chemicals

jimH

**pacerr** · 06-25-2009, 06:48 PM

As a beginner it won't make much difference what combination of chemicals you use as you'll go through your first two batches of supplies on a steep learning curve. By the time you get to the point that you know its not your fault it isn't working as good as you'd like, you'll have the experience to begin refining the materials. Use a thoughtful work flow, strive for specific results and critique each print and you'll waste a lot less supplies -- digital builds bad economy habits. Thank goodness for that!!

Treat it like learning digital photo software -- you just have to play around with it and learn from your mistakes and trial and error. Most used book stores have a coupl'a books on darkroom antics hidden under all the digital stuff.

Stop and fixer will swing both ways for you at this point. As for paper coatings, its much like printer papers -- either glossy or matt will do for starters and you don't HAVE to get carried away with accessories to use multigrade paper. Glossy paper needs a special dryer surface anyway to produce the glossy effect.

And you thought matching screen and printer output was complicated, huh? Bet you didn't know there's a sub-category of LBA associated with enlarger lenses too?

Your biggest concern at this point will just be to convince everyone else in the house that you don't smell a thing and they must be imagining it. :-)

Scene 1 - 01:30 a.m. after darkroom fun (in the bathroom, of course, so no one else could ... )

"You still awake, dear?"

"NO!! And you stink too!!"

H2

HGMonaro · 06-25-2009, 09:40 PM

get some RC paper for starters, it is easier to handle and takes much less washing (time and water). Glossy RC is glossy without special drying (fiber requires that). "Air-dried" glossy fibre has a similar sheen to pearl (Ilford medium sheen surface). Glossy makes your blacks look stronger and images sharper. I personally don't like it, mostly due to the reflections you also get.

Fiber paper has numerous issues to deal with however people still use it because of two factors, firstly it's more archival when correctly processed and secondly, (generally) looks better! It needs a lot more washing, even when using 'hypo clear' to speed that up and doesn't dry flat which can cause extra steps (dry mounting etc) to display it.

I don't think Rodinal and 400 speed films are a great combo unless your after the grain you'll get although some people swear by them. APX100 in Rodinal always appealed to me. You probably want a one-shot liquid developer but I tend to use XTOL so can't suggest anything specific. I do keep Ilford LC29 which I like (has good opened bottle shelf-life) and have some Rodinal... it lasts forever!. Use to use Ilfosol but that had a terrible open-bottle lifespan. There's a new version out, Ilfosol 3, but I don't know what it's like. Another option might be HC-110. For paper, get something like Ilford Multigrade Paper developer.

For film I don't use stop-bath... just two water rinses. I use indicator stop bath for prints (changes colour when it looses it's efectiveness). Fixer is the same for film and paper but mixed at different dilutions. I use Ilford Rapid Fixer but any brand works.

As good as this site is, for film processing & printing there are much better places.... have a look at www.apug.org and the B&W forums at photo.net (B&W Processing and film forum from Photo.net & Black and White Photography printing and finishing forum from Photo.net ). At this point your probably best to get hold of a basic darkroom book. Much easier to have at your side. The Ilford site has a good series of pages on the subject too.

Cheers, Nige

lithos · 06-25-2009, 11:03 PM

Start with the Tri-X. It's an easier film to work with - more latitude - and there's a shedload of info about it on the net.

Rodinal mightn't be the best thing to start with. It can be a bit off-putting for a beginner, as it gives huge grain. Try starting with Kodak D-76 or it's Ilford cousin, ID-11 (they use the same formula.) These are good basic devs, and are regarded as something of a "standard" - they give full film speed, good shadow and highlight detail, and a good grain/sharpness ratio.

As mentioned, fixers don't matter that much. Rapid fixers are easier to use, though, and most are acidic and act as a bit of a stop bath, as well as hardening the film (though most modern films don't really need any hardening.)

titrisol · 06-25-2009, 11:36 PM

stop and fixer are more or less the same all over the board.

Now papers, since you are in the UK get the Ilford RCs, great paper.
For developer, I do not know if you can buy Ethol LPD. That is THE best developer for amateurs, since it last ages, gives you great contrast control depending on dilution and is cheap.

Vendee · 06-27-2009, 03:57 AM

Thanks to everyone who replied. The advice is greatly appreciated.

06-25-2009, 01:50 PM	#1
Vendee Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Norfolk, UK Posts: 1,134	Darkroom virgin, chemical/paper advice Sorry if this is slightly OT but it relates to my ME Super. For the last six weeks I've been gathering everything I need to develop and print my own b&w film. I've got most of the gear together and now its time to get the chemicals and paper. Problem is, I've never done this before. I've got several rolls of Agfa APX 100 which I'm currently shooting (I've also got some Kodak Tri-x 400). I was originally planing to use Rodinal film developer but I may use Fomadon R09 which I believe is very similar to Rodinal but cheaper. Now the questions:- What about the stopbath and fixer? Does it matter what brands/type I use? And for the printing:- what developer should I use? Can the stopbath and fixer used in the film developing be be used for printing? Finally, what about paper? I'd like to produce 8x10 prints. From what I read, warm tone is better for portraits etc. What is the difference between resin coated and fibre papers. Lots of questions I know. Thanks for your patience.

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06-25-2009, 01:52 PM	#2
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	This thread probably belongs in this forum somewhere Pentax Film SLR Discussion - PentaxForums.com

06-25-2009, 02:10 PM	#3
Vendee Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Norfolk, UK Posts: 1,134 Original Poster	Doh, sorry, I meant to post it in Film SLR discussion. That will teach me to post when I'm tired. Could someone please move it for me?

06-25-2009, 02:37 PM	#4
Cosmo Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 488	I'm pretty sure it won't matter what stop and fix you use. Stop bath can be used for both film and prints. Some developers can be used for both, chack the label for which ones can. Just get some Ilford multigrade IV paper to start with.

06-25-2009, 02:44 PM	#5
jimH Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: South Central Nebraska - USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,771	Go to Photographers Formulary for more information on chemicals. Photographic chemicals, photo chemistry, photo processing equipment, photo chemicals jimH

06-25-2009, 06:48 PM	#6
pacerr Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Paris, TN Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,349	As a beginner it won't make much difference what combination of chemicals you use as you'll go through your first two batches of supplies on a steep learning curve. By the time you get to the point that you know its not your fault it isn't working as good as you'd like, you'll have the experience to begin refining the materials. Use a thoughtful work flow, strive for specific results and critique each print and you'll waste a lot less supplies -- digital builds bad economy habits. Thank goodness for that!! Treat it like learning digital photo software -- you just have to play around with it and learn from your mistakes and trial and error. Most used book stores have a coupl'a books on darkroom antics hidden under all the digital stuff. Stop and fixer will swing both ways for you at this point. As for paper coatings, its much like printer papers -- either glossy or matt will do for starters and you don't HAVE to get carried away with accessories to use multigrade paper. Glossy paper needs a special dryer surface anyway to produce the glossy effect. And you thought matching screen and printer output was complicated, huh? Bet you didn't know there's a sub-category of LBA associated with enlarger lenses too? Your biggest concern at this point will just be to convince everyone else in the house that you don't smell a thing and they must be imagining it. :-) Scene 1 - 01:30 a.m. after darkroom fun (in the bathroom, of course, so no one else could ... ) "You still awake, dear?" "NO!! And you stink too!!" H2

06-25-2009, 09:40 PM	#7
HGMonaro Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Melb. Aust Posts: 840	get some RC paper for starters, it is easier to handle and takes much less washing (time and water). Glossy RC is glossy without special drying (fiber requires that). "Air-dried" glossy fibre has a similar sheen to pearl (Ilford medium sheen surface). Glossy makes your blacks look stronger and images sharper. I personally don't like it, mostly due to the reflections you also get. Fiber paper has numerous issues to deal with however people still use it because of two factors, firstly it's more archival when correctly processed and secondly, (generally) looks better! It needs a lot more washing, even when using 'hypo clear' to speed that up and doesn't dry flat which can cause extra steps (dry mounting etc) to display it. I don't think Rodinal and 400 speed films are a great combo unless your after the grain you'll get although some people swear by them. APX100 in Rodinal always appealed to me. You probably want a one-shot liquid developer but I tend to use XTOL so can't suggest anything specific. I do keep Ilford LC29 which I like (has good opened bottle shelf-life) and have some Rodinal... it lasts forever!. Use to use Ilfosol but that had a terrible open-bottle lifespan. There's a new version out, Ilfosol 3, but I don't know what it's like. Another option might be HC-110. For paper, get something like Ilford Multigrade Paper developer. For film I don't use stop-bath... just two water rinses. I use indicator stop bath for prints (changes colour when it looses it's efectiveness). Fixer is the same for film and paper but mixed at different dilutions. I use Ilford Rapid Fixer but any brand works. As good as this site is, for film processing & printing there are much better places.... have a look at www.apug.org and the B&W forums at photo.net (B&W Processing and film forum from Photo.net & Black and White Photography printing and finishing forum from Photo.net ). At this point your probably best to get hold of a basic darkroom book. Much easier to have at your side. The Ilford site has a good series of pages on the subject too. Cheers, Nige

06-25-2009, 11:03 PM	#8
lithos Inactive Account Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Brisbane, QLD, AUS Posts: 3,261	Start with the Tri-X. It's an easier film to work with - more latitude - and there's a shedload of info about it on the net. Rodinal mightn't be the best thing to start with. It can be a bit off-putting for a beginner, as it gives huge grain. Try starting with Kodak D-76 or it's Ilford cousin, ID-11 (they use the same formula.) These are good basic devs, and are regarded as something of a "standard" - they give full film speed, good shadow and highlight detail, and a good grain/sharpness ratio. As mentioned, fixers don't matter that much. Rapid fixers are easier to use, though, and most are acidic and act as a bit of a stop bath, as well as hardening the film (though most modern films don't really need any hardening.)

06-25-2009, 11:36 PM	#9
titrisol Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: In the most populated state... state of denial Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,852	stop and fixer are more or less the same all over the board. Now papers, since you are in the UK get the Ilford RCs, great paper. For developer, I do not know if you can buy Ethol LPD. That is THE best developer for amateurs, since it last ages, gives you great contrast control depending on dilution and is cheap.

06-27-2009, 03:57 AM	#10
Vendee Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Norfolk, UK Posts: 1,134 Original Poster	Thanks to everyone who replied. The advice is greatly appreciated.