DX0 k-5 scores up

kuau · 11-08-2010, 05:37 PM

Is there anyway a K5 with there DA* 50-135/2.8 can compete with a D3s with Nikons 70-200mm 2.8 AFS-VRII at base ISO and IQ?
I am going to be shooting a lot of action ski photo's this winter and I already own the D3S/70-200mm combo which is amazing and yet very heavy to lug around.
Just not to sure about AF performance when shooting sports with the K5 / DA* 50-135?

Steven

dgaies · 11-08-2010, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by falconeye

For all the price debaters from the US:

Why don't you simply order from the EU?

We in the EU shop from anywhere where the price is fair, be it EU, Hongkong or the US. Why don't you do the same? Or otherwise stop complaining because as long as you don't shop abroad, prices have no reason to change.

I believe that if someone from the US ordered the camera from the EU, although they wouldn't have to pay VAT, they would have to pay tax on the camera on the way into the US. I don't know the exact threshold or percentage of the tax, so it may still be cheaper in the end, but you'd have to run the exact numbers with shipping costs as well, to determine that.

dgaies · 11-08-2010, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by kuau

Is there anyway a K5 with there DA* 50-135/2.8 can compete with a D3s with Nikons 70-200mm 2.8 AFS-VRII at base ISO and IQ?
I am going to be shooting a lot of action ski photo's this winter and I already own the D3S/70-200mm combo which is amazing and yet very heavy to lug around.
Just not to sure about AF performance when shooting sports with the K5 / DA* 50-135?

Steven

I have no idea how to quantify the difference, but D3S/70-200 would easily outperform the K5/50-135 in terms of AF for action shots. Whether or not the K5/50-135 would be acceptable or not is another question. I have the 50-135, and although the IQ is excellent and the AF perfectly acceptable for most applications, I'm not sure how confident I would be using it for fast-paced AF action shots.

PentaxRev · 11-08-2010, 06:29 PM

Makes us proud to be a Pentax owners doesn't it?

Oh yeah!

falconeye · 11-08-2010, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by dgaies

I believe that if someone from the US ordered the camera from the EU, although they wouldn't have to pay VAT, they would have to pay tax on the camera on the way into the US. I don't know the exact threshold or percentage of the tax, so it may still be cheaper in the end, but you'd have to run the exact numbers with shipping costs as well, to determine that.

I knew somebody would quote before I deleted my OT post

Well, at least somebody could do the math. You need to know shipping cost and import duties. They're like 4% in the EU on cameras, depending on the country of origin, a bit more for lenses. But a kit lens would be charged like the body. Also, shipping times should be observed. For about 50$, it is blazingly fast.

Collective orders are quite frequent on EU forums to buy a wanted item abroad and share the shipping, maybe even negotiate a better deal.

Anybody could start a thread now collecting half a dozen US orders. It would probably be best to buy from the Benelux as their pricrs are not artificially raised to include the cash-back. I'm sure, janneman could recommend a dealer. Wait a minute... I think he still awaits first shipments in the Netherlands...

Class A · 11-08-2010, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by falconeye

I don't know what Gordon thinks here.

I don't either. Would be very interesting if you could clarify with him in private communication.

Originally posted by falconeye

Theoretically, you could try to make the well repell further electrons as it charges up. Bubt that would happen at all iso, wouldn't it?

Yes, unless it were programmable behaviour.

Or this behaviour is always in place but one simple treats slightly less than full-well values as 100% at higher ISO levels. This would slightly reduce the DR for the higher levels but retain a linear response. Frankly, with such high base-DR, one could afford to do this.

EDIT: Gordon has written something about Nikon exploiting some non-linearity in Sony sensors in the past:

"Oleg, I've never seen any raw data that showed other than a linear response other than perhaps the newer Nikon D90/D5000 which may be pushing the operation of the sensor slightly into the non-linear range in order to gain an increase effective electron well depth and relatively slightly less back read noise, but I never proved this conclusively."

Here's another post by GordonBGood regarding the K-5's ISO 80:

"I base my judgement that the true base ISO of the K-5 being lower than ISO 100 on the fact that at ISO 80 the camera still uses the same relative gain factors as at ISO 100, but I admit that there are some things I can't determine from the raw samples that I have as in the non-linearity of the full electron well curve toward the low end of the ISO sensitivity scale, which almost certainly becomes slightly non-linear as the photosites approach saturation. These affects would only affect bright highlights and would serve only to compress the highlight tone graduations together to a slight extent, which the standard Tone Response Curves (TRC's) applied during RGB image development do anyway."

seigui · 11-08-2010, 08:48 PM

It's a pity they don't have K100d's tested. Other wise I would konw how big is the improvement between K-5 and K100d.

JohnM · 11-08-2010, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by CorneliusK

I'm generally very happy with the performance of my K-5, but I really hope that Pentax gets around to making P-TTL more reliable. I am often frustrated with P-TTL in bounced flash mode, and I can't whole heartedly recommend the pentax system as a result.

They managed to fix AF, surely they are good enough to improve P-TTL!

I have to agree, I just ran into this problem again Sunday at my son's 3rd birthday party. Could not get predictable results from mine at all until I put everything in manual. I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I know the flash stuff is supposed to work better than that!

kittykat46 · 11-08-2010, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by JohnM

I have to agree, I just ran into this problem again Sunday at my son's 3rd birthday party. Could not get predictable results from mine at all until I put everything in manual. I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I know the flash stuff is supposed to work better than that!

I think there is a firmware problem with the K-5 for flash.

Watch out for the next firmware update, due ~ mid-November. The drive mode buffer is due for an update + a number of unspecified bug fixes.

guillermovilas · 11-09-2010, 02:00 AM

Originally posted by Col

Nikonites probably tying to prevent anyone seeing the results...or there are more of us than was first thought.

(if I hadn't been trying to find a smile I'd beaten Alex to that comment.

No reason for Nikon to be jealous , the Nikon D7000 does just as good if not better

guillermovilas · 11-09-2010, 02:04 AM

Originally posted by WerTicus

k-5 DXO scores are up!

k-5 vs Full frame:

DxOMark - Compare sensors

k-5 vs its competitors:

DxOMark - Compare sensors

exciting :P (K-r ones are up too)

spoiler alert: Its amazing.

Fantastic k-5

But the k-r seems to be worse then the k-x , how can that be

kittykat46 · 11-09-2010, 02:57 AM

Originally posted by guillermovilas

Fantastic k-5

But the k-r seems to be worse then the k-x , how can that be

The are a lot of cooler heads who are reminding people (correctly) that the difference between the K-5 and the D7000 scores are well within testing tolerance, and the performance is essentially the same.

The difference between the K-R and K-X is even less - the Overall dXOMark score is the same between the two. Easily within testing tolerance and individual body differences.
So I'm confused why people keep saying the K-R is worse....

JohnBee · 11-09-2010, 03:21 AM

Originally posted by kittykat46

So I'm confused why people keep saying the K-R is worse....

I'm reminded of the times when I worked in computer sales(during college years) where I saw countless people paying huge premiums for performance advantage they would never see.

And this was of course in the 486 era where PC performance was rated with minute frequency ratings which wouldn't even register on today's processor scores. In fact I think the nominal variance in my current CPU frequency exceeds the larges jump in processor speeds in that day(+/- 20Mhz

lol )
And yet... people came-in and payed-up as much as a thousand dollars to get those minuscule performance gains onto their desks!

And you know what's even weirder about all this... ?
Its that I know for a fact... that if I had to drop cash for a new body right now. That I would buy the one with the highest measured rating.
Not because I could can quantify it...
but for the simple fact, that know, that I just bought the best there is.

Behold human nature!

ManWithCamera · 11-09-2010, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by JohnM

I have to agree, I just ran into this problem again Sunday at my son's 3rd birthday party. Could not get predictable results from mine at all until I put everything in manual. I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I know the flash stuff is supposed to work better than that!

Did you put the flash on manual, too, or did you put the camera on manual and use the flash in TTL mode?

ManWithCamera · 11-09-2010, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by kuau

Is there anyway a K5 with there DA* 50-135/2.8 can compete with a D3s with Nikons 70-200mm 2.8 AFS-VRII at base ISO and IQ?
I am going to be shooting a lot of action ski photo's this winter and I already own the D3S/70-200mm combo which is amazing and yet very heavy to lug around.
Just not to sure about AF performance when shooting sports with the K5 / DA* 50-135?

Steven

Based upon my experiences with Pentax gear and what I have read about Nikon gear, I would expect that the auto-focus of the Pentax will not be nearly as responsive as the Nikon. However, the Pentax is going to be much lighter.

The best way to know for sure would be to rent this combination (K-5 + 50-135mm) from CameraLensRentals.com and try it out. If you do end up trying out the Pentax, please let us know your experience as to how they compare.

11-08-2010, 06:42 PM	#321
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by falconeye I don't know what Gordon thinks here. I don't either. Would be very interesting if you could clarify with him in private communication. Originally posted by falconeye Theoretically, you could try to make the well repell further electrons as it charges up. Bubt that would happen at all iso, wouldn't it? Yes, unless it were programmable behaviour. Or this behaviour is always in place but one simple treats slightly less than full-well values as 100% at higher ISO levels. This would slightly reduce the DR for the higher levels but retain a linear response. Frankly, with such high base-DR, one could afford to do this. EDIT: Gordon has written something about Nikon exploiting some non-linearity in Sony sensors in the past: "Oleg, I've never seen any raw data that showed other than a linear response other than perhaps the newer Nikon D90/D5000 which may be pushing the operation of the sensor slightly into the non-linear range in order to gain an increase effective electron well depth and relatively slightly less back read noise, but I never proved this conclusively." Here's another post by GordonBGood regarding the K-5's ISO 80: "I base my judgement that the true base ISO of the K-5 being lower than ISO 100 on the fact that at ISO 80 the camera still uses the same relative gain factors as at ISO 100, but I admit that there are some things I can't determine from the raw samples that I have as in the non-linearity of the full electron well curve toward the low end of the ISO sensitivity scale, which almost certainly becomes slightly non-linear as the photosites approach saturation. These affects would only affect bright highlights and would serve only to compress the highlight tone graduations together to a slight extent, which the standard Tone Response Curves (TRC's) applied during RGB image development do anyway." Last edited by Class A; 11-08-2010 at 07:04 PM.

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11-08-2010, 05:37 PM	#316
kuau Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Park City, Utah Posts: 208	Is there anyway a K5 with there DA* 50-135/2.8 can compete with a D3s with Nikons 70-200mm 2.8 AFS-VRII at base ISO and IQ? I am going to be shooting a lot of action ski photo's this winter and I already own the D3S/70-200mm combo which is amazing and yet very heavy to lug around. Just not to sure about AF performance when shooting sports with the K5 / DA* 50-135? Steven

11-08-2010, 05:38 PM	#317
dgaies Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Maryland / Washington DC Posts: 3,917	Originally posted by falconeye For all the price debaters from the US: Why don't you simply order from the EU? We in the EU shop from anywhere where the price is fair, be it EU, Hongkong or the US. Why don't you do the same? Or otherwise stop complaining because as long as you don't shop abroad, prices have no reason to change. I believe that if someone from the US ordered the camera from the EU, although they wouldn't have to pay VAT, they would have to pay tax on the camera on the way into the US. I don't know the exact threshold or percentage of the tax, so it may still be cheaper in the end, but you'd have to run the exact numbers with shipping costs as well, to determine that.

11-08-2010, 05:41 PM	#318
dgaies Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Maryland / Washington DC Posts: 3,917	Originally posted by kuau Is there anyway a K5 with there DA* 50-135/2.8 can compete with a D3s with Nikons 70-200mm 2.8 AFS-VRII at base ISO and IQ? I am going to be shooting a lot of action ski photo's this winter and I already own the D3S/70-200mm combo which is amazing and yet very heavy to lug around. Just not to sure about AF performance when shooting sports with the K5 / DA* 50-135? Steven I have no idea how to quantify the difference, but D3S/70-200 would easily outperform the K5/50-135 in terms of AF for action shots. Whether or not the K5/50-135 would be acceptable or not is another question. I have the 50-135, and although the IQ is excellent and the AF perfectly acceptable for most applications, I'm not sure how confident I would be using it for fast-paced AF action shots.

11-08-2010, 06:29 PM	#319
PentaxRev Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: St. Louis, MO Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 141	Makes us proud to be a Pentax owners doesn't it? Oh yeah!

11-08-2010, 06:38 PM	#320
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by dgaies I believe that if someone from the US ordered the camera from the EU, although they wouldn't have to pay VAT, they would have to pay tax on the camera on the way into the US. I don't know the exact threshold or percentage of the tax, so it may still be cheaper in the end, but you'd have to run the exact numbers with shipping costs as well, to determine that. I knew somebody would quote before I deleted my OT post Well, at least somebody could do the math. You need to know shipping cost and import duties. They're like 4% in the EU on cameras, depending on the country of origin, a bit more for lenses. But a kit lens would be charged like the body. Also, shipping times should be observed. For about 50$, it is blazingly fast. Collective orders are quite frequent on EU forums to buy a wanted item abroad and share the shipping, maybe even negotiate a better deal. Anybody could start a thread now collecting half a dozen US orders. It would probably be best to buy from the Benelux as their pricrs are not artificially raised to include the cash-back. I'm sure, janneman could recommend a dealer. Wait a minute... I think he still awaits first shipments in the Netherlands...

11-08-2010, 08:48 PM	#322
seigui New Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Melbourne Posts: 8	It's a pity they don't have K100d's tested. Other wise I would konw how big is the improvement between K-5 and K100d.

11-08-2010, 09:51 PM	#323
JohnM Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Chicago, Illinois Photos: Gallery Posts: 39	Originally posted by CorneliusK I'm generally very happy with the performance of my K-5, but I really hope that Pentax gets around to making P-TTL more reliable. I am often frustrated with P-TTL in bounced flash mode, and I can't whole heartedly recommend the pentax system as a result. They managed to fix AF, surely they are good enough to improve P-TTL! I have to agree, I just ran into this problem again Sunday at my son's 3rd birthday party. Could not get predictable results from mine at all until I put everything in manual. I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I know the flash stuff is supposed to work better than that!

11-08-2010, 10:40 PM	#324
kittykat46 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 923	Originally posted by JohnM I have to agree, I just ran into this problem again Sunday at my son's 3rd birthday party. Could not get predictable results from mine at all until I put everything in manual. I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I know the flash stuff is supposed to work better than that! I think there is a firmware problem with the K-5 for flash. Watch out for the next firmware update, due ~ mid-November. The drive mode buffer is due for an update + a number of unspecified bug fixes.

11-09-2010, 02:00 AM	#325
guillermovilas Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Hasselt , Belgium Posts: 224	Originally posted by Col Nikonites probably tying to prevent anyone seeing the results...or there are more of us than was first thought. (if I hadn't been trying to find a smile I'd beaten Alex to that comment. No reason for Nikon to be jealous , the Nikon D7000 does just as good if not better

11-09-2010, 02:04 AM	#326
guillermovilas Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Hasselt , Belgium Posts: 224	Originally posted by WerTicus k-5 DXO scores are up! k-5 vs Full frame: DxOMark - Compare sensors k-5 vs its competitors: DxOMark - Compare sensors exciting :P (K-r ones are up too) spoiler alert: Its amazing. Fantastic k-5 But the k-r seems to be worse then the k-x , how can that be

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11-09-2010, 02:57 AM	#327
kittykat46 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 923	Originally posted by guillermovilas Fantastic k-5 But the k-r seems to be worse then the k-x , how can that be The are a lot of cooler heads who are reminding people (correctly) that the difference between the K-5 and the D7000 scores are well within testing tolerance, and the performance is essentially the same. The difference between the K-R and K-X is even less - the Overall dXOMark score is the same between the two. Easily within testing tolerance and individual body differences. So I'm confused why people keep saying the K-R is worse....

11-09-2010, 03:21 AM	#328
JohnBee Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Newrfoundland Photos: Albums Posts: 4,667	Originally posted by kittykat46 So I'm confused why people keep saying the K-R is worse.... I'm reminded of the times when I worked in computer sales(during college years) where I saw countless people paying huge premiums for performance advantage they would never see. And this was of course in the 486 era where PC performance was rated with minute frequency ratings which wouldn't even register on today's processor scores. In fact I think the nominal variance in my current CPU frequency exceeds the larges jump in processor speeds in that day(+/- 20Mhz lol ) And yet... people came-in and payed-up as much as a thousand dollars to get those minuscule performance gains onto their desks! And you know what's even weirder about all this... ? Its that I know for a fact... that if I had to drop cash for a new body right now. That I would buy the one with the highest measured rating. Not because I could can quantify it... but for the simple fact, that know, that I just bought the best there is. Behold human nature!

11-09-2010, 10:44 AM	#329
ManWithCamera Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Auburn, CA Posts: 87	Originally posted by JohnM I have to agree, I just ran into this problem again Sunday at my son's 3rd birthday party. Could not get predictable results from mine at all until I put everything in manual. I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I know the flash stuff is supposed to work better than that! Did you put the flash on manual, too, or did you put the camera on manual and use the flash in TTL mode?

11-09-2010, 12:49 PM	#330
ManWithCamera Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Auburn, CA Posts: 87	Originally posted by kuau Is there anyway a K5 with there DA* 50-135/2.8 can compete with a D3s with Nikons 70-200mm 2.8 AFS-VRII at base ISO and IQ? I am going to be shooting a lot of action ski photo's this winter and I already own the D3S/70-200mm combo which is amazing and yet very heavy to lug around. Just not to sure about AF performance when shooting sports with the K5 / DA* 50-135? Steven Based upon my experiences with Pentax gear and what I have read about Nikon gear, I would expect that the auto-focus of the Pentax will not be nearly as responsive as the Nikon. However, the Pentax is going to be much lighter. The best way to know for sure would be to rent this combination (K-5 + 50-135mm) from CameraLensRentals.com and try it out. If you do end up trying out the Pentax, please let us know your experience as to how they compare.