K5 Mirror Flops - Smoking Gun Found

rvannatta · 07-15-2011, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by Jim Radcliffe

I can't take all the credit here as others had suggested it might be battery related.. I just tried to experiment in what I thought would be the most logical way to test the theory.

thanks for your work here. My observations are consistent with yours.
I bought my camera in January and no problems until recently which I had associated with the presences of a freshly charged battery. Like you I have no grip or other external power feed.

it seems that once the 'edge' is off the freshly charged battery the issue
fades. My follow up will be to see if I can quickly manage the issue when
I have to change batteries --- or when ever I encounter the flopping issue
by taking some flash photos with the built in flash to explore the theory
that a few flash photos will quickly take the edge off the battery and 'fix' the issue.

I also need to be conscious of the flash usage issue, because it has been a dreary spring, and it is possible that I have masked the issue that has been there all along by 'testing' the camera with a photo or two after I changed batteries with the flash-- just to see if it was going to work....

Anyhow my 'plan' the next time I encounter the flopping issue is to pop up the
built in flash and force some flash shots on the theory that the relative high current drain of the built in flash may quickly take enough edge off the battery
to resolve the issue....

darrenleow · 07-15-2011, 10:16 AM

Great test. I agree that it seems to only happen with freshly-charged batteries. Whenever I insert a fresh battery I'm already expecting the camera to act up soon. Gonna send it in for repair soon.

KansasHorizons.com · 07-15-2011, 10:43 AM

I will see if I can reproduce this but I am 99% sure I was mid battery charge and it had not switched batteries yet.

pamones · 07-15-2011, 11:05 AM

Great info. Makes me wonder if the battery issues is what caused ultimately my circuit board to get fried?

krebsy75 · 07-15-2011, 11:08 AM

Hopefully nobody is holding their breath that Pentax will admit to a problem.

Jim Radcliffe · 07-15-2011, 11:17 AM

The question that comes to mind (I used to be a radar tech in the military.. did a lot with electronics and buggy systems Uncle Sam purchased) is this a case of:

A: The battery charger somehow over-charging the battery
B: A bad batch of batteries that actually deliver more juice than is required
C: The lack of voltage or current regulation in the camera which has an effect on the electronics
D: An electronic component that has degraded over time (faulty, Etc.)

Or it might be a combination of all of the above. The fact that the mirror floppiing began five months after I bought the camera leads me to believe that D is the more logical answer. It's all speculation at this point but at least I can now force the issue to show itself on demand with a fully charged battery.

It will be interesting to see what Pentax has to say about the issue. Thus far a number of people haver reported that CRIS has never heard of the problem.

krebsy75 · 07-15-2011, 11:19 AM

Has anyone put a voltmeter on suspect batteries?

**kmarceau** · 07-15-2011, 11:46 AM

If you are experiencing this problem and waiting to see what is done about it before sending your camera in for repair (as I was). Please call Pentax Customer Care at 800-877-0155 and report/complain about it.
The more they hear about this particular problem, the more likely they will be able to figure out the root cause of the issue.

Docrwm · 07-15-2011, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by krebsy97

Has anyone put a voltmeter on suspect batteries?

Makes me wonder if the non-OEM batteries or OEM's charged on a non-OEM charger are causing the same problems?

Jim Radcliffe · 07-15-2011, 12:48 PM

Robert, I've never used anything but Pentax batteries and gear so cannot answer that question.

I quit using non-OEM batteries a few years ago after one of them began to swell after charging. This was for Canon gear.. it wasn't worth it to me to save a few bucks only to have my house burn down chraging a 15 dollar battery.

Docrwm · 07-15-2011, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by Jim Radcliffe

Robert, I've never used anything but Pentax batteries and gear so cannot answer that question.

I quit using non-OEM batteries a few years ago after one of them began to swell after charging. This was for Canon gear.. it wasn't worth it to me to save a few bucks only to have my house burn down chraging a 15 dollar battery.

Jim,

I understand completely. However, if the issue is voltage then the non-OEMs may provide another data point in tracking down the cause. An alternative would be the non-OEM chargers, like car chargers, to see if the Pentax branded chargers may be pumping the batteries up a bit too high. This is all why I am a VERY strong believer in AA batteries.

philbaum · 07-15-2011, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by Docrwm

Jim,

I understand completely. However, if the issue is voltage then the non-OEMs may provide another data point in tracking down the cause. An alternative would be the non-OEM chargers, like car chargers, to see if the Pentax branded chargers may be pumping the batteries up a bit too high. This is all why I am a VERY strong believer in AA batteries.

I haven't had the mirror flop problem yet, but i've had my K5 for 4 months and this conversation has got my interest.

So i tested my batteries, both 1 OEM and 1 non-OEM and the results are in this post:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/1579642-post159.html

Duh, the testing of those 2 batteries showed that the charger determines the final battery voltage, as it was identical after charging in both the 2 different batteries, e.g. 8.41 volts.

So i think you're right, it would be interesting to test some batteries of any make from a car or house charger to see if the voltage is different than the 8.41 volts I got from my charger. If anyone else has a digital voltmeter other than me, please test your batteries and tell us the final voltage and whether you were using the Pentax charger or a different make altogether.

For several though, it sounds like the problem is not showing up till 4 months later - perhaps there is a wear component to this problem. I wonder how many photographers are using the burst mode who have encountered this problem. Perhaps the burst mode is causing premature wear. Just a question.

**LaurenOE** · 07-15-2011, 01:35 PM

I wonder how many flashes it would take for the batteries to settle down. A few flash cycles could quicken the battery drain. I suppose you could up the LCD brightness or do some other power intensive things on the camera if you suspect over charged/topped off batteries.

jezza323 · 07-15-2011, 02:36 PM

sounds to me like the battery regulation circuit in the camera is degrading over time due to over voltage, until it has degraded enough that the peak battery voltage is enough to cause issue.

quite common for silicon components to degrade over time, either due to poor quality material or higher than designed operating voltage.

aussiemick · 07-15-2011, 03:22 PM

Has anyone got a an AC adapter with this problem to see how the K5 responds.

07-15-2011, 11:46 AM	#23
kmarceau Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: New England Posts: 71	report to CRIS If you are experiencing this problem and waiting to see what is done about it before sending your camera in for repair (as I was). Please call Pentax Customer Care at 800-877-0155 and report/complain about it. The more they hear about this particular problem, the more likely they will be able to figure out the root cause of the issue.

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07-15-2011, 10:11 AM	#16
rvannatta Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Apiary, Oregon Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,181	Originally posted by Jim Radcliffe I can't take all the credit here as others had suggested it might be battery related.. I just tried to experiment in what I thought would be the most logical way to test the theory. thanks for your work here. My observations are consistent with yours. I bought my camera in January and no problems until recently which I had associated with the presences of a freshly charged battery. Like you I have no grip or other external power feed. it seems that once the 'edge' is off the freshly charged battery the issue fades. My follow up will be to see if I can quickly manage the issue when I have to change batteries --- or when ever I encounter the flopping issue by taking some flash photos with the built in flash to explore the theory that a few flash photos will quickly take the edge off the battery and 'fix' the issue. I also need to be conscious of the flash usage issue, because it has been a dreary spring, and it is possible that I have masked the issue that has been there all along by 'testing' the camera with a photo or two after I changed batteries with the flash-- just to see if it was going to work.... Anyhow my 'plan' the next time I encounter the flopping issue is to pop up the built in flash and force some flash shots on the theory that the relative high current drain of the built in flash may quickly take enough edge off the battery to resolve the issue....

07-15-2011, 10:16 AM	#17
darrenleow Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Chicago Photos: Gallery Posts: 541	Great test. I agree that it seems to only happen with freshly-charged batteries. Whenever I insert a fresh battery I'm already expecting the camera to act up soon. Gonna send it in for repair soon.

07-15-2011, 10:43 AM	#18
KansasHorizons.com Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Kansas Photos: Gallery Posts: 183	I will see if I can reproduce this but I am 99% sure I was mid battery charge and it had not switched batteries yet.

07-15-2011, 11:05 AM	#19
pamones Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Vermont Posts: 46	Great info. Makes me wonder if the battery issues is what caused ultimately my circuit board to get fried?

07-15-2011, 11:08 AM	#20
krebsy75 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Chester County, Pa. Posts: 804	Hopefully nobody is holding their breath that Pentax will admit to a problem.

07-15-2011, 11:17 AM	#21
Jim Radcliffe Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Dallas, Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 171 Original Poster	The question that comes to mind (I used to be a radar tech in the military.. did a lot with electronics and buggy systems Uncle Sam purchased) is this a case of: A: The battery charger somehow over-charging the battery B: A bad batch of batteries that actually deliver more juice than is required C: The lack of voltage or current regulation in the camera which has an effect on the electronics D: An electronic component that has degraded over time (faulty, Etc.) Or it might be a combination of all of the above. The fact that the mirror floppiing began five months after I bought the camera leads me to believe that D is the more logical answer. It's all speculation at this point but at least I can now force the issue to show itself on demand with a fully charged battery. It will be interesting to see what Pentax has to say about the issue. Thus far a number of people haver reported that CRIS has never heard of the problem.

07-15-2011, 11:19 AM	#22
krebsy75 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Chester County, Pa. Posts: 804	Has anyone put a voltmeter on suspect batteries?

07-15-2011, 12:31 PM	#24
Docrwm Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Somewhere in the Southern US Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,285	Originally posted by krebsy97 Has anyone put a voltmeter on suspect batteries? Makes me wonder if the non-OEM batteries or OEM's charged on a non-OEM charger are causing the same problems?

07-15-2011, 12:48 PM	#25
Jim Radcliffe Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Dallas, Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 171 Original Poster	Robert, I've never used anything but Pentax batteries and gear so cannot answer that question. I quit using non-OEM batteries a few years ago after one of them began to swell after charging. This was for Canon gear.. it wasn't worth it to me to save a few bucks only to have my house burn down chraging a 15 dollar battery.

07-15-2011, 12:56 PM	#26
Docrwm Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Somewhere in the Southern US Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,285	Originally posted by Jim Radcliffe Robert, I've never used anything but Pentax batteries and gear so cannot answer that question. I quit using non-OEM batteries a few years ago after one of them began to swell after charging. This was for Canon gear.. it wasn't worth it to me to save a few bucks only to have my house burn down chraging a 15 dollar battery. Jim, I understand completely. However, if the issue is voltage then the non-OEMs may provide another data point in tracking down the cause. An alternative would be the non-OEM chargers, like car chargers, to see if the Pentax branded chargers may be pumping the batteries up a bit too high. This is all why I am a VERY strong believer in AA batteries.

07-15-2011, 01:30 PM	#27
philbaum Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Port Townsend, Washington State, USA Posts: 3,659	Originally posted by Docrwm Jim, I understand completely. However, if the issue is voltage then the non-OEMs may provide another data point in tracking down the cause. An alternative would be the non-OEM chargers, like car chargers, to see if the Pentax branded chargers may be pumping the batteries up a bit too high. This is all why I am a VERY strong believer in AA batteries. I haven't had the mirror flop problem yet, but i've had my K5 for 4 months and this conversation has got my interest. So i tested my batteries, both 1 OEM and 1 non-OEM and the results are in this post: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/1579642-post159.html Duh, the testing of those 2 batteries showed that the charger determines the final battery voltage, as it was identical after charging in both the 2 different batteries, e.g. 8.41 volts. So i think you're right, it would be interesting to test some batteries of any make from a car or house charger to see if the voltage is different than the 8.41 volts I got from my charger. If anyone else has a digital voltmeter other than me, please test your batteries and tell us the final voltage and whether you were using the Pentax charger or a different make altogether. For several though, it sounds like the problem is not showing up till 4 months later - perhaps there is a wear component to this problem. I wonder how many photographers are using the burst mode who have encountered this problem. Perhaps the burst mode is causing premature wear. Just a question.

07-15-2011, 01:35 PM	#28
LaurenOE Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Back in Florida, but worldwide gigs! Photos: Albums Posts: 3,690	I wonder how many flashes it would take for the batteries to settle down. A few flash cycles could quicken the battery drain. I suppose you could up the LCD brightness or do some other power intensive things on the camera if you suspect over charged/topped off batteries.

07-15-2011, 02:36 PM	#29
jezza323 Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Brisbane Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,421	sounds to me like the battery regulation circuit in the camera is degrading over time due to over voltage, until it has degraded enough that the peak battery voltage is enough to cause issue. quite common for silicon components to degrade over time, either due to poor quality material or higher than designed operating voltage.

07-15-2011, 03:22 PM	#30
aussiemick New Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: nsw Posts: 6	Has anyone got a an AC adapter with this problem to see how the K5 responds.