K5 Exposure Compensation in Manual Mode

**RKKS08** · 08-25-2012, 12:51 PM

@ luftfluss and many others

Quote:

Well, when you are in M mode, the M means "Manual". So naturally EV compensation wouldn't work, because it's an "automatic" adjustment to your exposure.

This is a legal point of view - but I was very astonished when I found out about this behaviour with my K200D.
I was astonished because I was used to find EV compensation working in M mode, too. With this subject, Pentax has changed its opinion.

To make sure, I just checked my Super A (Super Program) and ME Super - with both cameras EV compensation works in Manual the same as in Auto. You have to keep this in mind if you work with both types.

CMG · 08-25-2012, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by RKKS08

@ luftfluss and many others
This is a legal point of view - but I was very astonished when I found out about this behaviour with my K200D.
I was astonished because I was used to find EV compensation working in M mode, too. With this subject, Pentax has changed its opinion.

To make sure, I just checked my Super A (Super Program) and ME Super - with both cameras EV compensation works in Manual the same as in Auto. You have to keep this in mind if you work with both types.

I'm still trying to understand the point of having EV compensation functional even in M mode. Would it not make more sense for EV compensation to be deactivated by the camera when you switch to M mode?

TomTextura · 08-25-2012, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by CMG

I'm still trying to understand the point of having EV compensation functional even in M mode. Would it not make more sense for EV compensation to be deactivated by the camera when you switch to M mode?

With EV comp in M mode what you're basically doing is adjusting your meter and the EV bar display. Maybe it'll help to think of it that way. If you use the green button in M mode then you essentially get the same advantage of using EV comp that you'd get in any of the semi-auto modes. The difference is how it displays on the EV bar in the viewfinder and/or top LCD. When using EV comp in any of the semi-auto modes you will see the EV value positioned in correspondence with the the EV compensation selected. That is, if you have a -0.5 EV comp value then your EV value on the EV bar will show as one bar to the left of center. In M mode it's different; you will see the EV value positioned at center on the EV bar after activating the green button. That's what gets confusing because you can think that you have dialed in the correct exposure according to the meter, because the EV value is positioned at zero on the EV bar, but if EV compensation has been set then zero is actually what the EV comp is, -0.5 in this case, and not zero. It's a bit confusing and something to be mindful of but it has its applications for some shooters and situations.

**RKKS08** · 08-25-2012, 01:56 PM

@ TomTextura

Quote:

With EV comp in M mode what you're basically doing is adjusting your meter and the EV bar display. Maybe it'll help to think of it that way.

That's really the point.
Historically, the EV compensation and the ISO setting wheels were positioned co-axial (ME Super). Internally, they managed the same connections, so EV compensation was in fact ISO changing.

I think most users - like me - found this convenient, as switching between M and A modes "on the fly" didn't require re-thinking.

CMG · 08-25-2012, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by RKKS08

@ TomTexturaThat's really the point.
Historically, the EV compensation and the ISO setting wheels were positioned co-axial (ME Super). Internally, they managed the same connections, so EV compensation was in fact ISO changing.

I think most users - like me - found this convenient, as switching between M and A modes "on the fly" didn't require re-thinking.

Can you please explain this a bit more.....?

CMG · 08-25-2012, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by TomTextura

With EV comp in M mode what you're basically doing is adjusting your meter and the EV bar display. Maybe it'll help to think of it that way. If you use the green button in M mode then you essentially get the same advantage of using EV comp that you'd get in any of the semi-auto modes. The difference is how it displays on the EV bar in the viewfinder and/or top LCD. When using EV comp in any of the semi-auto modes you will see the EV value positioned in correspondence with the the EV compensation selected. That is, if you have a -0.5 EV comp value then your EV value on the EV bar will show as one bar to the left of center. In M mode it's different; you will see the EV value positioned at center on the EV bar after activating the green button. That's what gets confusing because you can think that you have dialed in the correct exposure according to the meter, because the EV value is positioned at zero on the EV bar, but if EV compensation has been set then zero is actually what the EV comp is, -0.5 in this case, and not zero. It's a bit confusing and something to be mindful of but it has its applications for some shooters and situations.

I generally shoot in M mode and have my e-dials set so the front e-dial is shutter speed and rear e-dial is aperture. The Green button is deactivated by the camera. On my camera, in M mode the only option for the Green Button is ISO compensation.

Do you know of any situations when a shooter would want to bias his meter +/- through EV compensation when shooting in M? I'm trying to understand this concept.

TomTextura · 08-25-2012, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by CMG

I generally shoot in M mode and have my e-dials set so the front e-dial is shutter speed and rear e-dial is aperture. The Green button is deactivated by the camera. On my camera, in M mode the only option for the Green Button is ISO compensation.

I configure my dials the same way. What camera do you have?

Originally posted by CMG

Do you know of any situations when a shooter would want to bias his meter +/- through EV compensation when shooting in M? I'm trying to understand this concept.

I'd use it in the same situations I'd use EV compensation when shooting in any of the other modes, when the meter isn't reading the scene the way I think it should. The thing is, I'll probably also be using the green button to activate the program line to get a baseline exposure. I often like to use EV comp at -0.5 as a safeguard against blowing the highlights since the shadows can be pulled up so easily with the K-5. If that's how I have EV comp set, I don't mind if it stays that way when I'm shooting in manual. However, I usually prefer to not have any EV comp set when in manual and I just dial the exposure up or down as needed using the shutter or aperture, sometimes without regard to what the EV bar is displaying.

CMG · 08-25-2012, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by TomTextura

I configure my dials the same way. What camera do you have?

K-5. You? When I have my dials set that way it's doesn't seem that the green button functions at all.

Fogel70 · 08-25-2012, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by CMG

K-5. You? When I have my dials set that way it's doesn't seem that the green button functions at all.

By default the green button is set for "program line" in manual mode, so by pressing green button the camera will change both shutter speed and aperture for correct exposure.

Maybe you have diabled green button, but you can trst setting the exposure to 30s f/22 to see if exposure change when using green button.

I prefer to set green button for Tv-shift, so the camera only shift shutter speed.

Fogel70 · 08-25-2012, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by CMG

I'm still trying to understand the point of having EV compensation functional even in M mode. Would it not make more sense for EV compensation to be deactivated by the camera when you switch to M mode?

EV compendation is needed when using auto exposure functions in M mode (green button or flash).

If not using these functions these is no need using EV comp.

StephenHampshire · 08-25-2012, 11:39 PM

Originally posted by CMG

I generally shoot in M mode and have my e-dials set so the front e-dial is shutter speed and rear e-dial is aperture. The Green button is deactivated by the camera. On my camera, in M mode the only option for the Green Button is ISO compensation.

Do you know of any situations when a shooter would want to bias his meter +/- through EV compensation when shooting in M? I'm trying to understand this concept.

I find certain lenses (such as my Sigma 50-150) give better results with a bit of negative EV dialled in, typically -0.7. It is useful for the "green button" exposure in manual mode to reflect this. Not a big deal but a nice feature. Also if I am deliberately under exposing for a silhouette shot, it is helpful to maintain a constant exposure compensation against changing backgrounds, again using the "green button" to reset baseline exposure if neccessary. So applying EV in manual can be helpful if you use the green button in this way.

TomTextura · 08-26-2012, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by CMG

K-5. You? When I have my dials set that way it's doesn't seem that the green button functions at all.

I also have a K-5. If you go to the fifth tab of the record menu (the one with the camera icon), and then choose E-Dial Programming, you can change what the green button does in all the shooting modes.

Klaus · 08-26-2012, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by CMG

Do you know of any situations when a shooter would want to bias his meter +/- through EV compensation when shooting in M? I'm trying to understand this concept.

Should be useful for flash shooting. I usually switch to manual mode when I use the flash in p-ttl. This is an easy way to control the proportion between ambient light and flash. The more you underexpose in manual mode, the more proportion of flash illumination you get. Being able to adjust exposure compensation should allow changes in total exposure (sum of ambient and flash light). The flash compensation allowed on the k10 to modulate a bit the final level of exposure. With the k5 it seems to have a stronger impact. Maybe it does se same as general exposure compensation in manual mode, but I am not sure about this.

Cheers - Klaus

Klaus · 08-28-2012, 03:01 AM

Originally posted by Klaus

Should be useful for flash shooting.

Today I haved tried it out. Yes, the EV-compensation in manual mode changes the level of total exposure when using a p-TTL flash (with a K5).

Cheers - Klaus

jaytee · 08-28-2012, 07:34 AM

I don't use flash much so i don't know and I am just asking, but wouldn't fine tuning with the f/stop do the same thing. With flash you still work at the lowest ISO (for IQ) and set the shutter no lower than what coordinates with the flash. The flash works as a very fast shutter speed and you control ambient light with the f/stop ?

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08-25-2012, 12:51 PM	#31
RKKS08 Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Frankfurt am Main Posts: 1,241	@ luftfluss and many others Quote: Well, when you are in M mode, the M means "Manual". So naturally EV compensation wouldn't work, because it's an "automatic" adjustment to your exposure. This is a legal point of view - but I was very astonished when I found out about this behaviour with my K200D. I was astonished because I was used to find EV compensation working in M mode, too. With this subject, Pentax has changed its opinion. To make sure, I just checked my Super A (Super Program) and ME Super - with both cameras EV compensation works in Manual the same as in Auto. You have to keep this in mind if you work with both types.

08-25-2012, 01:05 PM	#32
CMG Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 138	Originally posted by RKKS08 @ luftfluss and many others This is a legal point of view - but I was very astonished when I found out about this behaviour with my K200D. I was astonished because I was used to find EV compensation working in M mode, too. With this subject, Pentax has changed its opinion. To make sure, I just checked my Super A (Super Program) and ME Super - with both cameras EV compensation works in Manual the same as in Auto. You have to keep this in mind if you work with both types. I'm still trying to understand the point of having EV compensation functional even in M mode. Would it not make more sense for EV compensation to be deactivated by the camera when you switch to M mode?

08-25-2012, 01:27 PM	#33
TomTextura Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Denver Photos: Albums Posts: 570	Originally posted by CMG I'm still trying to understand the point of having EV compensation functional even in M mode. Would it not make more sense for EV compensation to be deactivated by the camera when you switch to M mode? With EV comp in M mode what you're basically doing is adjusting your meter and the EV bar display. Maybe it'll help to think of it that way. If you use the green button in M mode then you essentially get the same advantage of using EV comp that you'd get in any of the semi-auto modes. The difference is how it displays on the EV bar in the viewfinder and/or top LCD. When using EV comp in any of the semi-auto modes you will see the EV value positioned in correspondence with the the EV compensation selected. That is, if you have a -0.5 EV comp value then your EV value on the EV bar will show as one bar to the left of center. In M mode it's different; you will see the EV value positioned at center on the EV bar after activating the green button. That's what gets confusing because you can think that you have dialed in the correct exposure according to the meter, because the EV value is positioned at zero on the EV bar, but if EV compensation has been set then zero is actually what the EV comp is, -0.5 in this case, and not zero. It's a bit confusing and something to be mindful of but it has its applications for some shooters and situations.

08-25-2012, 01:56 PM	#34
RKKS08 Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Frankfurt am Main Posts: 1,241	@ TomTextura Quote: With EV comp in M mode what you're basically doing is adjusting your meter and the EV bar display. Maybe it'll help to think of it that way. That's really the point. Historically, the EV compensation and the ISO setting wheels were positioned co-axial (ME Super). Internally, they managed the same connections, so EV compensation was in fact ISO changing. I think most users - like me - found this convenient, as switching between M and A modes "on the fly" didn't require re-thinking.

08-25-2012, 02:52 PM	#35
CMG Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 138	Originally posted by RKKS08 @ TomTexturaThat's really the point. Historically, the EV compensation and the ISO setting wheels were positioned co-axial (ME Super). Internally, they managed the same connections, so EV compensation was in fact ISO changing. I think most users - like me - found this convenient, as switching between M and A modes "on the fly" didn't require re-thinking. Can you please explain this a bit more.....?

08-25-2012, 02:58 PM	#36
CMG Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 138	Originally posted by TomTextura With EV comp in M mode what you're basically doing is adjusting your meter and the EV bar display. Maybe it'll help to think of it that way. If you use the green button in M mode then you essentially get the same advantage of using EV comp that you'd get in any of the semi-auto modes. The difference is how it displays on the EV bar in the viewfinder and/or top LCD. When using EV comp in any of the semi-auto modes you will see the EV value positioned in correspondence with the the EV compensation selected. That is, if you have a -0.5 EV comp value then your EV value on the EV bar will show as one bar to the left of center. In M mode it's different; you will see the EV value positioned at center on the EV bar after activating the green button. That's what gets confusing because you can think that you have dialed in the correct exposure according to the meter, because the EV value is positioned at zero on the EV bar, but if EV compensation has been set then zero is actually what the EV comp is, -0.5 in this case, and not zero. It's a bit confusing and something to be mindful of but it has its applications for some shooters and situations. I generally shoot in M mode and have my e-dials set so the front e-dial is shutter speed and rear e-dial is aperture. The Green button is deactivated by the camera. On my camera, in M mode the only option for the Green Button is ISO compensation. Do you know of any situations when a shooter would want to bias his meter +/- through EV compensation when shooting in M? I'm trying to understand this concept.

08-25-2012, 05:42 PM	#37
TomTextura Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Denver Photos: Albums Posts: 570	Originally posted by CMG I generally shoot in M mode and have my e-dials set so the front e-dial is shutter speed and rear e-dial is aperture. The Green button is deactivated by the camera. On my camera, in M mode the only option for the Green Button is ISO compensation. I configure my dials the same way. What camera do you have? Originally posted by CMG Do you know of any situations when a shooter would want to bias his meter +/- through EV compensation when shooting in M? I'm trying to understand this concept. I'd use it in the same situations I'd use EV compensation when shooting in any of the other modes, when the meter isn't reading the scene the way I think it should. The thing is, I'll probably also be using the green button to activate the program line to get a baseline exposure. I often like to use EV comp at -0.5 as a safeguard against blowing the highlights since the shadows can be pulled up so easily with the K-5. If that's how I have EV comp set, I don't mind if it stays that way when I'm shooting in manual. However, I usually prefer to not have any EV comp set when in manual and I just dial the exposure up or down as needed using the shutter or aperture, sometimes without regard to what the EV bar is displaying.

08-25-2012, 10:02 PM	#38
CMG Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 138	Originally posted by TomTextura I configure my dials the same way. What camera do you have? K-5. You? When I have my dials set that way it's doesn't seem that the green button functions at all.

08-25-2012, 10:52 PM	#39
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	Originally posted by CMG K-5. You? When I have my dials set that way it's doesn't seem that the green button functions at all. By default the green button is set for "program line" in manual mode, so by pressing green button the camera will change both shutter speed and aperture for correct exposure. Maybe you have diabled green button, but you can trst setting the exposure to 30s f/22 to see if exposure change when using green button. I prefer to set green button for Tv-shift, so the camera only shift shutter speed.

08-25-2012, 10:59 PM	#40
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	Originally posted by CMG I'm still trying to understand the point of having EV compensation functional even in M mode. Would it not make more sense for EV compensation to be deactivated by the camera when you switch to M mode? EV compendation is needed when using auto exposure functions in M mode (green button or flash). If not using these functions these is no need using EV comp.

08-25-2012, 11:39 PM	#41
StephenHampshire Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Winchester Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,523	Originally posted by CMG I generally shoot in M mode and have my e-dials set so the front e-dial is shutter speed and rear e-dial is aperture. The Green button is deactivated by the camera. On my camera, in M mode the only option for the Green Button is ISO compensation. Do you know of any situations when a shooter would want to bias his meter +/- through EV compensation when shooting in M? I'm trying to understand this concept. I find certain lenses (such as my Sigma 50-150) give better results with a bit of negative EV dialled in, typically -0.7. It is useful for the "green button" exposure in manual mode to reflect this. Not a big deal but a nice feature. Also if I am deliberately under exposing for a silhouette shot, it is helpful to maintain a constant exposure compensation against changing backgrounds, again using the "green button" to reset baseline exposure if neccessary. So applying EV in manual can be helpful if you use the green button in this way.

08-26-2012, 10:22 AM	#42
TomTextura Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Denver Photos: Albums Posts: 570	Originally posted by CMG K-5. You? When I have my dials set that way it's doesn't seem that the green button functions at all. I also have a K-5. If you go to the fifth tab of the record menu (the one with the camera icon), and then choose E-Dial Programming, you can change what the green button does in all the shooting modes.

08-26-2012, 12:59 PM	#43
Klaus Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Murcia, Spain Photos: Gallery Posts: 100	Originally posted by CMG Do you know of any situations when a shooter would want to bias his meter +/- through EV compensation when shooting in M? I'm trying to understand this concept. Should be useful for flash shooting. I usually switch to manual mode when I use the flash in p-ttl. This is an easy way to control the proportion between ambient light and flash. The more you underexpose in manual mode, the more proportion of flash illumination you get. Being able to adjust exposure compensation should allow changes in total exposure (sum of ambient and flash light). The flash compensation allowed on the k10 to modulate a bit the final level of exposure. With the k5 it seems to have a stronger impact. Maybe it does se same as general exposure compensation in manual mode, but I am not sure about this. Cheers - Klaus

08-28-2012, 03:01 AM	#44
Klaus Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Murcia, Spain Photos: Gallery Posts: 100	Originally posted by Klaus Should be useful for flash shooting. Today I haved tried it out. Yes, the EV-compensation in manual mode changes the level of total exposure when using a p-TTL flash (with a K5). Cheers - Klaus

08-28-2012, 07:34 AM	#45
jaytee Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: tucson,az Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 255	I don't use flash much so i don't know and I am just asking, but wouldn't fine tuning with the f/stop do the same thing. With flash you still work at the lowest ISO (for IQ) and set the shutter no lower than what coordinates with the flash. The flash works as a very fast shutter speed and you control ambient light with the f/stop ?