On camera flash seems terribly lacking compared to my canon on camera flash

Kombivan · 09-20-2022, 08:06 AM

I recently purchased a brand new k5ii old stock and today I took it out with a canon 600d and was taking sunset shots whe I decided a shot of my kombi infront of the sunset would be nice and I couldn't get a reasonable shot with my K5ii and had to resort to my 600D is this the way it is with pentax flash or could there be somthing wrong I have been through the menu settings and everything is set correctly. Is it that pentax are relying to heavily on the availability of the high iso's or is it just the way it is. I am a pentaxium I have been for years and only this year bought some cheap canon and I would not have questioned the flash ability if I had not purchased a canon and I just tried my k5 and its worse alumination than the k5ii. I would like to know if there is a fix for the poor quality on camera flash?

AfterPentax Mark II · 09-20-2022, 08:16 AM

Originally posted by Kombivan

I recently purchased a brand new k5ii old stock and today I took it out with a canon 600d and was taking sunset shots whe I decided a shot of my kombi infront of the sunset would be nice and I couldn't get a reasonable shot with my K5ii and had to resort to my 600D is this the way it is with pentax flash or could there be somthing wrong I have been through the menu settings and everything is set correctly. Is it that pentax are relying to heavily on the availability of the high iso's or is it just the way it is. I am a pentaxium I have been for years and only this year bought some cheap canon and I would not have questioned the flash ability if I had not purchased a canon and I just tried my k5 and its worse alumination than the k5ii. I would like to know if there is a fix for the poor quality on camera flash?

Never had any problem with the on camera flash of any Pentax (and Samsung GX-10). Show us a picture that illustrates the problem. What aperture value did you set?

Kombivan · 09-20-2022, 08:47 AM

I am not financial so can't upload photos. it was about 5 minutes after sundown canon did it at 100iso and the pentax was unsucessful at 800iso but got a washed out image (sky, it was shot of red kombi with just after sunset) at 12800iso. Like I said canon produced the photo at 100iso with on camera flash and I was totally unaware the flash was so bad until I got a canon this is possibly why I have had so much trouble in low light in the past with the pentax's I have.. I have about 14 digital cameras canon and pentax.

kypfer · 09-20-2022, 09:18 AM - **2 Likes**

According to the camera handbooks, both cameras have a Guide Number of 13 (m/100ASA) for the built-in flash, so it's likely to be an "operator error".
Unfortunately, without being able to examine the EXIF for both images, it'll only be guesswork as exactly what went wrong … both cameras should give similar results, assuming similar lenses and settings.

**Bob 256** · 09-20-2022, 09:20 AM

The amount of contrast you get between background and foreground subjects in a flash filled photo is determined by the exposure for the background and then what happens with the flash since most of the foreground exposure is determined by the latter. You have a lot of choices for the background based on aperture/ISO/shutter speed. The foreground is mainly controlled by aperture and ISO since flash duration acts as the shutter speed for the foreground.

In your situation, you need to increase the foreground exposure while maintaining the background (assuming that part came out ok for you). You can do that by increasing the aperture while reducing the shutter speed to compensate as long as you don't run into issues with too high a shutter speed for flash synchronization or depth of field issues. Going the other way will darken the foreground further since you're closing the aperture, letting less flash exposure to the film/sensor.

Alternately, you can increase your ISO while compensating with either aperture or shutter speed for the background to keep its exposure correct. The ISO increase will apply to the flash exposure and raise the foreground brightness while the background stays the same. The issue here is image quality due to higher ISOs but that usually isn't a problem if you stay under 1600 ISO with modern digital cameras.

I usually choose the ISO method since it will have less effect on flash sync and DOF. Both are best used with manual flash output so the flash won't try to compensate and create issues with this scheme.

There are probably some flash experts lurking around this forum so stay tuned and you might hear some even better solutions.

**Crooski** · 09-20-2022, 11:35 AM

Kombivan
Did you set the flash to 2nd curtain sync? This is necessary to avoid a washed out background

pschlute · 09-20-2022, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by Kombivan

I would like to know if there is a fix for the poor quality on camera flash?

Can you post the image ?

Kombivan · 09-21-2022, 05:36 AM

I have been shooting flash photos in front of the sunset for 25 years when I started it was with a minolta x700 and an achiever flash that I had to put my finger over the flash sensor so the flash wouldn't switch off the flash. This k5 simply doesn't do the job any where near as well as the canon. I wasn't using a seperate flash just the inbuilt flash which I would expect to light up my van 6 meters away.when there is already ample light. The sky was exposed properly but not my van. F8 av mode this should have given more flash lightening. The sky was exposed perfectly but the flash didn't light up my car anywhere near as good as my Canon 600D did. I have also noticed the canon flash is far better indoors than the K5ii I thought it was the cameras software or somthing but now I just think the flash is inadequate.

---------- Post added 09-21-22 at 11:24 PM ----------

I have overcome the problem by shooting in manual mode rather than relying on the cameras software 60S 4.5F and 800 Iso. Lit up my car and if I was infront of a sunset I would have a perfect exposure also +/- 1.3 to over expose in the low light one would think the av mode would work for this type of shot.

**Joetitch** · 09-21-2022, 08:53 PM

Just to throw some baseless speculation in there, Pentax expect the photographer to be knowledgeable and Canon expect the photographer to be a dolt and need all the help they can get by automatically adjusting settings to compensate.🤪
Glad you solved it

**CristiC** · 09-22-2022, 12:06 PM

"Every time you take a flash photo, you are making two exposures simultaneously. You are making an exposure of the ambient light, and an exposure of the flash's light. Whether you take this into account or not, it is happening every time."
Strobist: Lighting 101: Balancing Flash and Ambient, Pt 1

Both my Canon DSLR camera 7DMk2 and my Pentax KP camera have a setting that allows to reduce the power level of the inbuilt flash, therefore going from Guide Number GN13 to something (much) less. Was that modified without intention? Was the metering mode set to spot? What was different in Av than in M mode? There are several settings that may interfere with an intent, it's definitely not Canon vs Pentax but more about awareness of all settings.

**Joetitch** · 09-23-2022, 10:13 PM - **1 Like**

Just an extra thought which may or may not impact the flash workings is the hot shoe cover. Genuine covers have a cut out so as not to activate the microswitch under the edge on the RHS when viewed from the back. If you have a generic cover you might be fooling the camera into thinking that a flash unit is fitted to the body. If you have no cover fitted then this is irrelevant.

MarkJerling · 09-24-2022, 12:34 AM

Originally posted by Kombivan

I am not financial so can't upload photos.

I can see no reason why you'd not be able to upload photos. While non site supporters have a lower limit, you should still be able to upload images, if all else fails, to your gallery at least, and you'd be able to link to those in your posts. If your upload limit has been reached, then reach out to Adam to delete your older images and gain space.

09-20-2022, 08:06 AM	#1
Kombivan Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Photos: Gallery Posts: 576	On camera flash seems terribly lacking compared to my canon on camera flash I recently purchased a brand new k5ii old stock and today I took it out with a canon 600d and was taking sunset shots whe I decided a shot of my kombi infront of the sunset would be nice and I couldn't get a reasonable shot with my K5ii and had to resort to my 600D is this the way it is with pentax flash or could there be somthing wrong I have been through the menu settings and everything is set correctly. Is it that pentax are relying to heavily on the availability of the high iso's or is it just the way it is. I am a pentaxium I have been for years and only this year bought some cheap canon and I would not have questioned the flash ability if I had not purchased a canon and I just tried my k5 and its worse alumination than the k5ii. I would like to know if there is a fix for the poor quality on camera flash?

09-21-2022, 05:36 AM	#8
Kombivan Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Photos: Gallery Posts: 576 Original Poster	Pentax on camera flash needs attention. I have been shooting flash photos in front of the sunset for 25 years when I started it was with a minolta x700 and an achiever flash that I had to put my finger over the flash sensor so the flash wouldn't switch off the flash. This k5 simply doesn't do the job any where near as well as the canon. I wasn't using a seperate flash just the inbuilt flash which I would expect to light up my van 6 meters away.when there is already ample light. The sky was exposed properly but not my van. F8 av mode this should have given more flash lightening. The sky was exposed perfectly but the flash didn't light up my car anywhere near as good as my Canon 600D did. I have also noticed the canon flash is far better indoors than the K5ii I thought it was the cameras software or somthing but now I just think the flash is inadequate. ---------- Post added 09-21-22 at 11:24 PM ---------- I have overcome the problem by shooting in manual mode rather than relying on the cameras software 60S 4.5F and 800 Iso. Lit up my car and if I was infront of a sunset I would have a perfect exposure also +/- 1.3 to over expose in the low light one would think the av mode would work for this type of shot. Last edited by Kombivan; 09-21-2022 at 08:12 AM.

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09-20-2022, 08:16 AM	#2
AfterPentax Mark II Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2021 Posts: 1,461	Originally posted by Kombivan I recently purchased a brand new k5ii old stock and today I took it out with a canon 600d and was taking sunset shots whe I decided a shot of my kombi infront of the sunset would be nice and I couldn't get a reasonable shot with my K5ii and had to resort to my 600D is this the way it is with pentax flash or could there be somthing wrong I have been through the menu settings and everything is set correctly. Is it that pentax are relying to heavily on the availability of the high iso's or is it just the way it is. I am a pentaxium I have been for years and only this year bought some cheap canon and I would not have questioned the flash ability if I had not purchased a canon and I just tried my k5 and its worse alumination than the k5ii. I would like to know if there is a fix for the poor quality on camera flash? Never had any problem with the on camera flash of any Pentax (and Samsung GX-10). Show us a picture that illustrates the problem. What aperture value did you set?

09-20-2022, 08:47 AM	#3
Kombivan Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Photos: Gallery Posts: 576 Original Poster	I am not financial so can't upload photos. it was about 5 minutes after sundown canon did it at 100iso and the pentax was unsucessful at 800iso but got a washed out image (sky, it was shot of red kombi with just after sunset) at 12800iso. Like I said canon produced the photo at 100iso with on camera flash and I was totally unaware the flash was so bad until I got a canon this is possibly why I have had so much trouble in low light in the past with the pentax's I have.. I have about 14 digital cameras canon and pentax.

09-20-2022, 09:18 AM - 2 Likes	#4
kypfer Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Jersey C.I. Posts: 3,592	According to the camera handbooks, both cameras have a Guide Number of 13 (m/100ASA) for the built-in flash, so it's likely to be an "operator error". Unfortunately, without being able to examine the EXIF for both images, it'll only be guesswork as exactly what went wrong … both cameras should give similar results, assuming similar lenses and settings.

09-20-2022, 09:20 AM	#5
Bob 256 Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Idaho Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,375	The amount of contrast you get between background and foreground subjects in a flash filled photo is determined by the exposure for the background and then what happens with the flash since most of the foreground exposure is determined by the latter. You have a lot of choices for the background based on aperture/ISO/shutter speed. The foreground is mainly controlled by aperture and ISO since flash duration acts as the shutter speed for the foreground. In your situation, you need to increase the foreground exposure while maintaining the background (assuming that part came out ok for you). You can do that by increasing the aperture while reducing the shutter speed to compensate as long as you don't run into issues with too high a shutter speed for flash synchronization or depth of field issues. Going the other way will darken the foreground further since you're closing the aperture, letting less flash exposure to the film/sensor. Alternately, you can increase your ISO while compensating with either aperture or shutter speed for the background to keep its exposure correct. The ISO increase will apply to the flash exposure and raise the foreground brightness while the background stays the same. The issue here is image quality due to higher ISOs but that usually isn't a problem if you stay under 1600 ISO with modern digital cameras. I usually choose the ISO method since it will have less effect on flash sync and DOF. Both are best used with manual flash output so the flash won't try to compensate and create issues with this scheme. There are probably some flash experts lurking around this forum so stay tuned and you might hear some even better solutions.

09-20-2022, 11:35 AM	#6
Crooski Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Rozenburg , Zuid-Holland Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,680	Kombivan Did you set the flash to 2nd curtain sync? This is necessary to avoid a washed out background

09-20-2022, 11:48 AM	#7
pschlute Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,198	Originally posted by Kombivan I would like to know if there is a fix for the poor quality on camera flash? Can you post the image ?

09-21-2022, 08:53 PM	#9
Joetitch Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Leura NSW Posts: 502	Just to throw some baseless speculation in there, Pentax expect the photographer to be knowledgeable and Canon expect the photographer to be a dolt and need all the help they can get by automatically adjusting settings to compensate.🤪 Glad you solved it

09-22-2022, 12:06 PM	#10
CristiC Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Transylvania Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 412	"Every time you take a flash photo, you are making two exposures simultaneously. You are making an exposure of the ambient light, and an exposure of the flash's light. Whether you take this into account or not, it is happening every time." Strobist: Lighting 101: Balancing Flash and Ambient, Pt 1 Both my Canon DSLR camera 7DMk2 and my Pentax KP camera have a setting that allows to reduce the power level of the inbuilt flash, therefore going from Guide Number GN13 to something (much) less. Was that modified without intention? Was the metering mode set to spot? What was different in Av than in M mode? There are several settings that may interfere with an intent, it's definitely not Canon vs Pentax but more about awareness of all settings.

09-23-2022, 10:13 PM - 1 Like	#11
Joetitch Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Leura NSW Posts: 502	Just an extra thought which may or may not impact the flash workings is the hot shoe cover. Genuine covers have a cut out so as not to activate the microswitch under the edge on the RHS when viewed from the back. If you have a generic cover you might be fooling the camera into thinking that a flash unit is fitted to the body. If you have no cover fitted then this is irrelevant.

09-24-2022, 12:34 AM	#12
MarkJerling Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: May 2012 Location: Wairarapa, New Zealand Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 20,405	Originally posted by Kombivan I am not financial so can't upload photos. I can see no reason why you'd not be able to upload photos. While non site supporters have a lower limit, you should still be able to upload images, if all else fails, to your gallery at least, and you'd be able to link to those in your posts. If your upload limit has been reached, then reach out to Adam to delete your older images and gain space.

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