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09-21-2010, 05:00 PM   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by atomiccow Quote
If you were the Pentax CEO... you'd be fired.
If you were a Pentax shareholder... you'd be throwing away your money.
And if you are a Pentax customer and if Pentax did operate like this... they wouldn't be providing you with products much longer.

The market for cameras is only so big. Pentax owns some of it. From that bit of it, they can make so much money in so much time. With that money, they can make new things like new and better lenses and cameras. Canon and Nikon own more of this market than Pentax does. As such, they make more money in less time. With that money they can make better lenses and better cameras faster than Pentax can. If you value Pentax as a company, you should hope that they want to attract new customers.
Agree 99% with your vision. But these days it looks like no company "owns" a market segment, competition is big from left to right as well as from top to bottom, so towards customers not only time-to-market for features are important also customer money talks, more than ever (also to maintain market share for coming years)...

09-21-2010, 05:20 PM   #137
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QuoteOriginally posted by atomiccow Quote
Canonikon can't sell at zero profit to kill Pentax. That's anti-competitive and as such is illegal.
Let me give you an example outside the world of photography. Do you know how much Microsoft charges for the OEM Windows versions they provide to vendors like Dell or HP? Hint: it's 2 figures less than the $ 200 they charge from end-users for the box version.

That's how the attained their 95% market share on the desktop market, and how they kept it for decades. Why? Because it's on the corporate market where they really make money (Windows Server, SQL Server, Office, etc.).

All companies take similar strategies, of maintaing share in one market to drive sales on another, from software vendors to car industry. Don't think it's different with the photography market, and that Nikon or Canon don't release high-spec'd models with a lesser profit margin to drive sales on the cheaper models with the increased brand awareness.
09-21-2010, 09:22 PM   #138
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You know, it is not a bad camera. In fact it is a solid camera for people who passed on K-7. They did the same thing with k20. People who passed on K10 bought it, but didn't pull in new users from other brands.

The thing is that for people who want to wait until the thing is less than $1,000, the next model is almost right around the corner then. Will Pentax be stubborn enough to put out another APS-C then? If you think that, K-5 might not be such a bad choice at that time.

But if you think that next DSLR is FF in about 12 months or so, then I don't see a point, especially if you already have a k-7.
09-21-2010, 09:50 PM   #139
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QuoteOriginally posted by atomiccow Quote
Canonikon can't sell at zero profit to kill Pentax. That's anti-competitive and as such is illegal.
They won't, they will prefer to have Pentax bleed instead of die, this to avoid them to loose market share (if they are sure they have lower cost structure potentially even at negative profit for some time to ensure optimal profit over time).
- What is the point of actually killing Pentax, when Samsung and Sony are also knocking on their door?

Will one of those companies buy Pentax and will the K-mount stay in business?

09-21-2010, 09:50 PM   #140
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QuoteOriginally posted by hcarvalhoalves Quote
Let me give you an example outside the world of photography. Do you know how much Microsoft charges for the OEM Windows versions they provide to vendors like Dell or HP? Hint: it's 2 figures less than the $ 200 they charge from end-users for the box version.
That's how the attained their 95% market share on the desktop market, and how they kept it for decades. Why? Because it's on the corporate market where they really make money (Windows Server, SQL Server, Office, etc.).

All companies take similar strategies, of maintaing share in one market to drive sales on another, from software vendors to car industry. Don't think it's different with the photography market, and that Nikon or Canon don't release high-spec'd models with a lesser profit margin to drive sales on the cheaper models with the increased brand awareness.
yup...last time I checked into this with some buds from the old days who are still in the rat race they mentioned that the major computer mfg was paying something around $5-$8/system-license (or it might have been $10-$20 memory is a bit fuzzy tonight) for Win Vista or XP depending on volume and they paid the same for whatever version of Windows they used. But in exchange for the exclusivity and cheap price the mfg assumed virtually all of the support for the OS.

Even back when I had my OEM license from MS I could buy Win 3.11 or Win95 at a HUGE discount if I comitted to selling 1000 units/yr...and we are talking under 10% of the list price. But if I had a short fall I still owed the difference so it was too risky for me when i was just starting, plus I made the money on the networks not the systems.
09-21-2010, 10:33 PM   #141
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QuoteQuote:
All companies take similar strategies, of maintaing share in one market to drive sales on another, from software vendors to car industry. Don't think it's different with the photography market, and that Nikon or Canon don't release high-spec'd models with a lesser profit margin to drive sales on the cheaper models with the increased brand awareness.
So you don't think Pentax should be doing the same thing? If Pentax's high spec models don't fair well against Canonikon's high spec models, how exactly is that helping them drive their lower end sales? On top of all that, what does Pentax's cheaper lineup have going for it against the equally cheap competition? How is Pentax's current strategy of "refreshing" its lineup exemplary of being "smart, fast-moving, and finding a smaller market to squeeze into".

Looking at your strategy I can say this:

1. Pentax hasn't done anything smart yet. Releasing the K-X in every single color of the rainbow was a trick but I can bet you that it didn't help it sell that many more. I can attest to the fact that in all my time in east Asia, Pentax's largest market, I have never seen a person holding anyone but the black one.

2. Pentax is not fast. Companies like Olympus, Panasonic, and Sony are fast. They release multiple lower end camera's a year with very fast time to market. They also have wide availability and good advertising.

3. Pentax isn't competing in a small market. The entry level consumer dslr market is now the largest dslr market. Everyone's gunning for a slice of the pie. Your saying Pentax is trying to compete here. If anything, even if the competition from Canonikon isn't as tough, there's the likes of Sony, Panasonic, and Olympus. Ya entry level wasn't as big of a market when the K-X came out. Now it is and what does Pentax have to show for it? A K-X in a new body shell called the K-R...
09-21-2010, 10:40 PM   #142
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QuoteOriginally posted by atomiccow Quote
So you don't think Pentax should be doing the same thing? If Pentax's high spec models don't fair well against Canonikon's high spec models, how exactly is that helping them drive their lower end sales? On top of all that, what does Pentax's cheaper lineup have going for it against the equally cheap competition? How is Pentax's current strategy of "refreshing" its lineup exemplary of being "smart, fast-moving, and finding a smaller market to squeeze into".

Looking at your strategy I can say this:

1. Pentax hasn't done anything smart yet. Releasing the K-X in every single color of the rainbow was a trick but I can bet you that it didn't help it sell that many more. I can attest to the fact that in all my time in east Asia, Pentax's largest market, I have never seen a person holding anyone but the black one.

2. Pentax is not fast. Companies like Olympus, Panasonic, and Sony are fast. They release multiple lower end camera's a year with very fast time to market. They also have wide availability and good advertising.

3. Pentax isn't competing in a small market. The entry level consumer dslr market is now the largest dslr market. Everyone's gunning for a slice of the pie. Your saying Pentax is trying to compete here. If anything, even if the competition from Canonikon isn't as tough, there's the likes of Sony, Panasonic, and Olympus. Ya entry level wasn't as big of a market when the K-X came out. Now it is and what does Pentax have to show for it? A K-X in a new body shell called the K-R...
The K-x was good, the K-5 isn't bad, the 35 mm F2.4 is IMHO also pretty smart, but indeed no time for Pentax to relax, competition is heavy on all levels. Also Samsung will invest to fight for customers in every segment, maybe re-initiation of cooperation is a key to success.
- A lot of people want to be different, especially in Asia, having many colors, only selling black doesn't have to be bad
09-22-2010, 12:21 PM   #143
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QuoteOriginally posted by atomiccow Quote
1. Pentax hasn't done anything smart yet. Releasing the K-X in every single color of the rainbow was a trick but I can bet you that it didn't help it sell that many more....I can attest to the fact that in all my time in east Asia, Pentax's largest market, I have never seen a person holding anyone but the black one.
I won't bet if I were you. The different color options is one of the factors which kept K-x in the Japanese top 10 list as of last month, when it is at the end of its shelf life! This has not happened to Pentax cameras for a long time.



This is the sales data for most popular color options relative to one another in Japan.
Black is position #8.

QuoteQuote:
2. Pentax is not fast. Companies like Olympus, Panasonic, and Sony are fast. They release multiple lower end camera's a year with very fast time to market. They also have wide availability and good advertising.
Sure, Sony is fast - despite that, they had a disastrous 2009 and first half of 2010. Only until the NEX came along before they recovered. Pentax did MUCH better than Sony last year.

QuoteQuote:
Now it is and what does Pentax have to show for it? A K-X in a new body shell called the K-R...
Yeah, and what's wrong with that?
K-x is still selling very well. And K-r is improved further.


Last edited by nosnoop; 09-22-2010 at 12:33 PM.
09-27-2010, 09:42 PM   #144
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QuoteOriginally posted by Unsinkable II Quote
K-5 is what I want.

If I have to bash a bit, it would be the price. I think we'll see it head south fairly pronto to $1,299 (body) to be in spitting distance of the D7000. Canon 60D will also need to drop to $999.

$1,499 with the 18-135WR would be a good move.

Seriously, folks... Pentax has never been so competitive as right now in the digital era. I can imagine some envious thoughts from Canikon users at the moment.
Here is a change of tune....

Please do not compare the Canon 60D to the K5. The 60D is a huge WTF disappointment and no where near a natural evolutionary step up from the 50D. I just don't get what Canon was thinking.

Anyhow, I said my piece about the K5 and like I said before, I will await the reviews and official statements before I make up my mind.

To those who want the 'bashers' to get a life or shut up.... let me just say, if Pentax doesn't start paying attention to some of the major complaints, especially the ones that are relatively easy to fix, pretty soon this group will only be frequented by a few die-hards fans of a once great, now gone camera manufacturer.

BTW, easy to fix refers to forced DFS. A simple firmware fix would be a nice gesture to fix something that actually makes the camera otherwise useless for a large part of the photography I get paid for (and personal shots).
09-27-2010, 09:56 PM   #145
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
You do realize that introductory pricing is not a reflection of final pricing right?
Have you looked at what the 7D was priced at upon release? I remember the ruckus it caused over in dpreview as everyone in the forums argued that the camera would die due to it being "as expensive as a FF solution"

Truth is I too think the 7D is an amazing camera.
But, I don't own any lenses and I'm not really compelled to start a new APS-C kit for one. However... when prices settle, the K-5 will be every bit as affordable as any other prosumer DSLR on the market. So I'd say patience is the key rather than switching systems.

Couple of things do come to mind with the 7D though...
How is the weather sealing?
Does it have in body SR?
How does it compare in sensitivity?
Does it offer in camera HDR?
Do you value quiet shutter?


Are but a few questions that comes to mind.
I know on my end of things, the weather sealing is a deal breaker.
I often shoot in adverse conditions and I couldn't stand the thought of worrying about my camera in rain, fog, mist etc.
I may very well be the only person in this forum that says that:
- Weather sealing?
- in body SR?
- in camera HDR?

Are all highly over-rated Pentax features!

#1. Weather sealing is only as good as your WR compatible lenses. How many have them? More importantly, who is taking photos in the rain? If I need to, I use an umbrella... WR or not, the lens is useless if it is wet.

#2. In body SR? How old are you 5? Or 105? Don't you remember the days before SR? I took great photos without SR? When did it suddenly become a vital necessity? Besides, SR is actually a detriment when using a tripod. How many know that it should be turned off in these situations?

#3. In camera HDR? Seriously? That is what post production is for? The in camera firmware and processing power can never be as good as software on your PC!

...and don't even get me started on Pentax's "me too" attitude about including video, which isn't even that good. I would have rather that they focused on camera related shortcomings.

Anyhow, I bring these three items up because I see a lot of Pentax fan boys brag but seriously, other camera enthusiasts are not envious of such features!

Let the flaming begin....
09-27-2010, 10:01 PM   #146
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mark Castleman Quote
No solar panels!
No GPS!
No built in bag-carrying robot!
AAAGGGHHH! Geek Rage! Geek Rage! Massive Fail!

It reminds me of the out-of-control rumors on the iPad. By the time it was announced there were those who predicted utter failure if it did not heal the sick and raise the dead.
Actually, I am surprised that no one asked if the K5 will have the ability to use a GPS accessory. Contrary to what you may believe, that is actually a very useful accessory and other DSLRS, in the same class, do offer this.

The rest... you're just talking nonsense.
09-27-2010, 10:06 PM   #147
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeff knight Quote
For better or worse, I am a professional photographer married to Pentax for now.

My wife doesn't make lasagna quite the way I like it, so I should just dump her, right?

She still feeds me bro', and so does Pentax.
Yeah, let's see how long your relationship will last if your wife forces you to be with another woman during the night, and her name is Canon, and you can't afford to invest in a whole separate set of glass to use with Canon, but your wife's glass is useless because she isn't any good to you at night. :=]
09-27-2010, 10:10 PM   #148
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxmz Quote
I may very well be the only person in this forum that says that:
- Weather sealing?
- in body SR?
- in camera HDR?

Are all highly over-rated Pentax features!

#1. Weather sealing is only as good as your WR compatible lenses. How many have them? More importantly, who is taking photos in the rain? If I need to, I use an umbrella... WR or not, the lens is useless if it is wet.
The WR lens work really well in light sprinkles and usually have hood or UV's to protect the lens, So i say it's a large marketing point for Pentax. I would love more D-FA lens for example, much rather have the option than not. And you need an umbrella instead, Oh no perhaps Canon & Nikon should offer umbrellas as a form of WR?

QuoteQuote:
#2. In body SR? How old are you 5? Or 105? Don't you remember the days before SR? I took great photos without SR? When did it suddenly become a vital necessity? Besides, SR is actually a detriment when using a tripod. How many know that it should be turned off in these situations?
Wow that's a largely ill conceived argument IMO, Sure you can take shots without it, but it's sure easier to get shots you couldn't get before with it, and isn't that what's progress all about?

If you argue that, go back to film and avoid any technical advantages offered in the last few years or more. It makes getting the sharp hairs on a fly with a Macro, that much more attainable. And now you are arguing it's detrimental to Tripod use, Turn it off! (And everybody knows to do that, perhaps not you?) And real men generally don't need a Tripod, with SR in the body.... (Unless for long exposures) Also if the argument was true, you would not see SR, VR, OS, or IS, or OIS anywhere, but you do because there's a need.

QuoteQuote:
Anyhow, I bring these three items up because I see a lot of Pentax fan boys brag but seriously, other camera enthusiasts are not envious of such features!

Let the flaming begin....
Yes they are, I know plenty of Canikon users who look at the K-7 as a backup because of WR, and good primes. And everybody is envious of SR, I prefer OS in lens around 300mm or over, but under that SR is a serious limitation for the others, in which you have to spend per lens. "Flame Begun"

Last edited by Freak; 09-27-2010 at 10:18 PM.
09-27-2010, 10:20 PM   #149
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QuoteOriginally posted by atomiccow Quote
1. Pentax hasn't done anything smart yet. Releasing the K-X in every single color of the rainbow was a trick but I can bet you that it didn't help it sell that many more. I can attest to the fact that in all my time in east Asia, Pentax's largest market, I have never seen a person holding anyone but the black one.
I see from your profile that you're Canadian. Which part of Asia were you in an how long a time did you spend? Speaking as someone who is in Asia, I can say there is a big increase on the number of new Pentax users due to the K-x and to a lesser extent, the K-7. Most of the new K-x users where I am have colored ones rather than boring black. In fact you can find a number of colored K-x for sale at Singapore's Changi Airport. Even the local shops where I am sell a lot of colored ones rather than black alone. I have friends in Tokyo and a few posted in Beijing who say the colored K-x are a big hit. So pardon me if I don't entirely believe what you have just stated.
09-27-2010, 10:28 PM   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxmz Quote

#1. Weather sealing is only as good as your WR compatible lenses. How many have them? More importantly, who is taking photos in the rain? If I need to, I use an umbrella... WR or not, the lens is useless if it is wet.
Last time I was in Seattle it was raining all the time...

You got one of those umbrellas that can be fitted in the flash-mount?
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