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08-15-2012, 03:11 AM   #886
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QuoteOriginally posted by jppp Quote
I know. I tend to forget that ever too often...
That's one of the reasons for having a dedicated button for it, as a reminder. It's a shame that you can't set the RAW button to it.

08-15-2012, 10:47 AM   #887
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jppp,

Great list of tips you posted, my experience leads me to agree on almost all counts. Comments:

5) Shoot Raw - I find shooting jpg to be much more convenient, both during the shooting (buffer, review), and after for reviewing and processing. The processing part is probably mostly due to my lack of PP skills though. I'm sure if you're good at it, it's much less of an issue.

8) Monopod ... never use it. - I have gone back and forth with the use of a monopod. It is definitely limiting, but when you are using heavier lenses for long periods of time, it definitely helps in preventing fatigue. With a 70-200, this would not be as much of an issue, but with the Sigma 100-300, it defitely gets heavy after a while.

I would love to hear more comments regarding turning SR off. I have heard that it might be better to turn it off. I wish I could remember to turn it on and off when best, but I know I would forget it, and leave it off!

If I could add an 11) to your list, it would be 11) Position yourself so that your backgrounds are the least busy. I used to try to keep the sun at my back, but now, if I have a choice as to which side of the field to be on, and one side will give a background of green trees, and the other side gives a background of cars in a parking lot, I'll pick the green trees.

I noticed that you mentioned you shot most wide open at 2.8. This is another area where as Pentax users, it's nice to have our own thread here. I have backed off shooting wide open because of the difficulties in the AF-C being able to keep up. As you said, the subject isolation you get from using large aperatures is VERY important for sports photos in my opinion, but given the shallow DOF, I find that I'm stopping down a little in order to get more focus buffer for more in focus shots. Also, depending on the lens you're using stopping down by a stop might be sharper too. The Tamron 2.8 is a pretty sharp lens wide open though.


QuoteOriginally posted by jppp Quote
Nice and sharp pictures! I especially like the BW shirt of the other team ;D (see my pics and you'll find out why...)

I've pretty much ditched my Sigma 150-500, even though it would give me so much more reach. The IQ just isn't there compared to my Tamron 70-200 f2.8. A massive difference.

Here's how I approach shooting a football match:
1) Shoot sitting down on the ground. This is a new one for me, but the impact is huge. No more chopped off heads on the background, less grass in the frame and much more drama. If the ground is wet, a small stool or chair does the thing, or something to keep your butt dry.
2) shoot from the end of the pitch, or the far end of the sidelines. The best action is always close to the goals and you also get more faces and expressions in the shots, not only the numbers in the players' backs.
3) This is what I usually forget: shoot not only the action but also the reactions. Frustration, celebration, anything. Facial expressions. My job in our team is also to keep the statistics, so I tend to switch my camera to a pen, then realizing that there could have been some nice facial expressions to capture. And there are reactions also in the audience, how big or small it may be.
4) Shoot a lot, and then some. While editing and selecting takes a lot of time afterwards, at least you have a lot to choose from. Having the max focal length of 200 mm is a restriction in this regard because I can only shoot what happens on the closer half of the pitch.
5) Shoot RAW. I know many say that even pro sports shooters mainly use jpegs, but I tried RAW once and never looked back. Who cares, I'm an amateur!
6) Plan your session beforehand. Where to shoot from at which ever part of the match.
7) This one's both easy and difficult for me: know the players. At the moment I shoot for one team, the operation of which I'm heavily involved in. Knowing each one of the players for several years helps to anticipate their action on the pitch. And because my mission at the moment is to document their "heroics and achievements", I really don't have to know much about the other teams. This will change when our team dissolves, maybe already after this season. The difficult thing is that I'm too emotionally involved in the team. I see loads of poorly framed action shots close to the goal, because I get exited about the chance of the team scoring a goal. And having my own son on the pitch doesn't make it any easier, either.
8) Monopod is a distraction and an obstruction. Never use it.
9) Turn the SR off, because shooting wide open and using shutter speeds from 800 and up takes usually care of motion blur. If it's left on, it may actually add blur to the images when shooting fast action and panning. However, the Sigma OS is helpful because it stabilizes the view in the view finder as well. When I used to shoot with the Sigma 150-500 I always had that switched on.
10) Keep the ball in your shots. If it's not there, it's hard to tell why the players are twisted into difficult positions and having funny faces. The ball is the center and motivation of the action.

There you have it. Most of this is self evident to the experienced shooters, but there's a lot that I myself keep forgetting. It's hard to focus into all these things during a shoot (and there are lots of other details as well) because there's so much going on.


The latest game against the guys from the Capital (blue and white) was great to watch. Total dominance and yet only 0-1 win. A two point lead in the championship with 8 games to go.
08-15-2012, 10:54 AM   #888
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QuoteOriginally posted by jppp Quote
Nice and sharp pictures! I especially like the BW shirt of the other team ;D (see my pics and you'll find out why...)

I've pretty much ditched my Sigma 150-500, even though it would give me so much more reach. The IQ just isn't there compared to my Tamron 70-200 f2.8. A massive difference.

Here's how I approach shooting a football match:
1) Shoot sitting down on the ground. This is a new one for me, but the impact is huge. No more chopped off heads on the background, less grass in the frame and much more drama. If the ground is wet, a small stool or chair does the thing, or something to keep your butt dry.
2) shoot from the end of the pitch, or the far end of the sidelines. The best action is always close to the goals and you also get more faces and expressions in the shots, not only the numbers in the players' backs.
3) This is what I usually forget: shoot not only the action but also the reactions. Frustration, celebration, anything. Facial expressions. My job in our team is also to keep the statistics, so I tend to switch my camera to a pen, then realizing that there could have been some nice facial expressions to capture. And there are reactions also in the audience, how big or small it may be.
4) Shoot a lot, and then some. While editing and selecting takes a lot of time afterwards, at least you have a lot to choose from. Having the max focal length of 200 mm is a restriction in this regard because I can only shoot what happens on the closer half of the pitch.
5) Shoot RAW. I know many say that even pro sports shooters mainly use jpegs, but I tried RAW once and never looked back. Who cares, I'm an amateur!
6) Plan your session beforehand. Where to shoot from at which ever part of the match.
7) This one's both easy and difficult for me: know the players. At the moment I shoot for one team, the operation of which I'm heavily involved in. Knowing each one of the players for several years helps to anticipate their action on the pitch. And because my mission at the moment is to document their "heroics and achievements", I really don't have to know much about the other teams. This will change when our team dissolves, maybe already after this season. The difficult thing is that I'm too emotionally involved in the team. I see loads of poorly framed action shots close to the goal, because I get exited about the chance of the team scoring a goal. And having my own son on the pitch doesn't make it any easier, either.
8) Monopod is a distraction and an obstruction. Never use it.
9) Turn the SR off, because shooting wide open and using shutter speeds from 800 and up takes usually care of motion blur. If it's left on, it may actually add blur to the images when shooting fast action and panning. However, the Sigma OS is helpful because it stabilizes the view in the view finder as well. When I used to shoot with the Sigma 150-500 I always had that switched on.
10) Keep the ball in your shots. If it's not there, it's hard to tell why the players are twisted into difficult positions and having funny faces. The ball is the center and motivation of the action.

There you have it. Most of this is self evident to the experienced shooters, but there's a lot that I myself keep forgetting. It's hard to focus into all these things during a shoot (and there are lots of other details as well) because there's so much going on.


The latest game against the guys from the Capital (blue and white) was great to watch. Total dominance and yet only 0-1 win. A two point lead in the championship with 8 games to go.
Good tips. I sometimes follow the ball (game) but sometimes follow a player when I want some good shots of one particular player. Take your time is also important since soccer is a game where there is a lot of time that nothing happens.
08-15-2012, 11:23 AM   #889
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For my Olympics football photos I used a K5 and a Sigma 70-200 f/2.8. I also tried with a Sigma 150-500 f/6.3 (no good, IMHO).

The "media scrum" was not anything as bad as I was expecting, all very polite and friendly, really.

I wrote an article for Pentax User UK on taking sport pics using Pentax and have posted it here.

Tell me your thoughts!

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/photographic-technique/195627-sports-phot...ng-pentax.html


Last edited by The Kellyboy; 08-15-2012 at 11:24 AM. Reason: Extra clarity in my post
08-15-2012, 01:01 PM   #890
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
I sometimes follow the ball (game) but sometimes follow a player when I want some good shots of one particular player. Take your time is also important since soccer is a game where there is a lot of time that nothing happens.
Yes, I also like to take non-action shots of the players, kind of candid portraits and such. Also the coaches etc, like this one:

Before the start of the last game with our team the coach seems a bit worried.


Sometimes the ball is not in the frame, but it's quite obvious that it's not that far away, either.
08-16-2012, 06:20 PM   #891
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OK, I said I'd add some of my photos. While we are in the soccer mood here: These are from my kids games back in the fall with the old K10d. Great camera, but not for sports! All with the Sigma 100-300 f4.
Attached Images
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PENTAX K10D  Photo 
View Picture EXIF
PENTAX K10D  Photo 
View Picture EXIF
PENTAX K10D  Photo 
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08-16-2012, 10:00 PM   #892
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QuoteOriginally posted by jake14mw Quote
Great list of tips you posted, my experience leads me to agree on almost all counts. Comments:

5) Shoot Raw - I find shooting jpg to be much more convenient, both during the shooting (buffer, review), and after for reviewing and processing. The processing part is probably mostly due to my lack of PP skills though. I'm sure if you're good at it, it's much less of an issue.
Yes, shooting jpeg is faster, and you even save storage space. But with RAW you get all the tools and the whole range in post, and for me that's just more important. And the end result is so much better.

QuoteOriginally posted by jake14mw Quote
8) Monopod ... never use it. - I have gone back and forth with the use of a monopod. It is definitely limiting, but when you are using heavier lenses for long periods of time, it definitely helps in preventing fatigue. With a 70-200, this would not be as much of an issue, but with the Sigma 100-300, it defitely gets heavy after a while.
I didn't mean that nobody should use it, the whole list was kind of a checklist for myself. Using monopod just isn't my thing. When I get rich and buy bigger and better lenses, I may change my mind ;D

QuoteOriginally posted by jake14mw Quote
I would love to hear more comments regarding turning SR off. I have heard that it might be better to turn it off. I wish I could remember to turn it on and off when best, but I know I would forget it, and leave it off!
I forget to switch it off all the time, and it shows in the pictures. They'll just get softer at edges. I want to freeze the action completely using as high shutter speeds as possible, and at 1/1000 s and beyond you really won't get any motion blur no matter how you throw your camera around.

QuoteOriginally posted by jake14mw Quote
If I could add an 11) to your list, it would be 11) Position yourself so that your backgrounds are the least busy. I used to try to keep the sun at my back, but now, if I have a choice as to which side of the field to be on, and one side will give a background of green trees, and the other side gives a background of cars in a parking lot, I'll pick the green trees.

I noticed that you mentioned you shot most wide open at 2.8. This is another area where as Pentax users, it's nice to have our own thread here. I have backed off shooting wide open because of the difficulties in the AF-C being able to keep up. As you said, the subject isolation you get from using large aperatures is VERY important for sports photos in my opinion, but given the shallow DOF, I find that I'm stopping down a little in order to get more focus buffer for more in focus shots. Also, depending on the lens you're using stopping down by a stop might be sharper too. The Tamron 2.8 is a pretty sharp lens wide open though.
About positioning myself, I only worry about getting the faces I want in the pictures, which means that I'll have to consider the direction of the light as well. However, I rarely care about the background, because shooting wide open also blurs the busy background - depending on my distance to the subject. But yes, having cars and other cr*p in the background sucks no matter how blurred they are. That's the problem when you're shooting junior sports. Having full grandstands in the background is something else :-)


And because the AF-C of my K-5 (and K-7 for that matter) can't really track the subject properly, I never really use it. I track the subject myself re-focusing all the time. I only shoot longer burst if the subject is moving sideways and I stop down a bit only for corner kicks and free kicks, etc, trying to pre-focus at a suitable distance.
And yes, the Tamron 70-200 2.8 is a pretty sharp glass even wide open Given the price I paid for it, I'm very happy with it and happily overlook the few shortcomings it may have.

Having said all the above - and before - I'm not all that experienced in shooting sports. I'm trying my best to learn by experiment and by analyzing the pictures of pro shooters and others above my league, and reading topics like this in different forums. So, feel free to comment and point out things you feel different about. It helps all of us get better.

And I didn't mean to write this much again. Sorry
08-17-2012, 02:42 AM   #893
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QuoteOriginally posted by jppp Quote
And I didn't mean to write this much again. Sorry
Keep writing. That last picture is great,but a ball could make it better.

08-17-2012, 03:36 AM   #894
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
That last picture is great,but a ball could make it better.
I know. But it's also the last confrontation of the two local heroes at our local stadium, because the BW guy quit his career and the other one got a contract in Germany. The one in the middle just looks daft and nobody cares ;D

Here are the two of them again, and now the ball is also in the frame:

A corner kick, and the bald guy passes the ball with one touch to the guy further back in the background, who scores a goal. It's the last goal pass in our elite series for this guy - and the blue guy can't stop him. And I was the only guy with a camera even close to this angle and distance

So, I was close enough but both of these shots would've been much better had I been sitting or kneeling down.
08-17-2012, 06:12 AM   #895
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A funny thing happened in looking through some photos to post last night. I was looking through the K-10d photos and noticed noise in them, looked at the ISO, and it was at 400! The K-5 was such a jump up for me! I usually shoot in AV, manually setting ISO so that my shutter speeds are in the range I want them. With the excellent high ISO handling of the K-5, I have been thinking about trying TAV more often. Here's my question to you guys, if you are outside in good light, do you have a particular shutter speed that you think is ideal for certain sports, or you just shoot the fastest SS possible? I think maybe I settle for 1/500 maybe too often when maybe 1/1000 might make some pictures clearer in relation to camera shake? I'm talking about at 300mm here. As far as motion blur is concerned, I do like a slight amount of motion blur at times to convey action, but want subjects faces to be as clear as possible. Say you are outside, shooting soccer with 300mm, and proper exposure is at f5.6, 1/750, ISO 800. Would you use TAV? If so, what would you set your aperature and SS to?
08-17-2012, 06:41 AM   #896
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I usually shoot TAv as I want ISO to be as low as possible for the settings I put in. Depending on action and light I usually go between 1/450 to 1/1000 and also shift the aperture depending on what type of shot I'm aiming for. I let the ISO float freely but if I see that the ISO is too high I limit the aperture or shutter depending on what I want to sacrifice at the moment. I know that this is backwards of how many approach it but it feels more natural to me.

Exif from of some of the soccer shots I posted:
"Exposure 0.001 sec (1/1000)
Aperture f/5.0
Focal Length 200 mm
ISO Speed 320"


Exposure 0.001 sec (1/1000)
Aperture f/5.0
Focal Length 88 mm
ISO Speed 200


Exposure 0.001 sec (1/1250)
Aperture f/6.3
Focal Length 70 mm
ISO Speed 640


Exposure 0.001 sec (1/1250)
Aperture f/6.3
Focal Length 98 mm
ISO Speed 400
08-17-2012, 02:17 PM   #897
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QuoteOriginally posted by jake14mw Quote
Say you are outside, shooting soccer with 300mm, and proper exposure is at f5.6, 1/750, ISO 800. Would you use TAV? If so, what would you set your aperture and SS to?
I definitely use TAv for sports. I want to keep shutter speed up to reduce motion blur (camera shake is not an issue as I use a tripod) & I want to control the aperture as I want a certain DOF to cover multiple players and to provide sufficient central & peripheral sharpness. With TAv, I can fix these two parameters. I normally used to let ISO roam between the set limits of ISO80-ISO4000.

First off, it's important to understand the role of ISO Sensitivity. Exposure (the number of photons hitting the sensor) is solely determined by Scene Luminance, Shutter Speed & Aperture. These are the real "Exposure Triangle". ISO is not a part of this. ISO affects the brightness in the rendered image, not the amount of photons in the captured image.

See https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/photography-articles/126203-stops-shutter...nsitivity.html

To get the best shot/photon noise SNR (Signal-to-Noise- Ratio), we capture as many photons as possible. At base ISO, this means that we try to get some/many of the sensels in the sensor full up (reaching FWC - "Full Well Capacity") with the histogram towards the right. See the last section of the article in the link above, for the figures showing the effect of the number of photons on SNR.

However, due to the current scene luminance, and our choice of shutter speed and aperture, we may not be able to "fill the sensor up". So now the captured image has less photons, and the rendered brightness of the processed image is less too. To increase the rendered brightness, we can apply gain. This is the so-called "ISO Sensitivity" setting.

The gain can be applied 2 ways: digital or analogue.

Digital gain is just manipulating bits and this can be applied either in-camera or in the raw converter in PP. It makes no difference to the final image noise which way you do it (except for clipping headroom - see below), but the review image on the LCD will be darker if you do it in PP.

With analogue gain, we multiply the voltage leaving the sensor (after conversion from photons) and before it arrives at the ADC (Analogue-to-Digital Converter). The advantage of this method is that the bigger signal arriving at the ADC helps overwhelm ADC noise. This method is used in most cameras for low to medium ISO gain boosts.

However, there is no free lunch. In boosting the sensor output voltage and driving the ADC harder, we are reducing the clipping headroom. At base ISO, it is the sensels reaching FWC (being saturated) that causes the highlights to clip. But since FWC is not being reached by most/any sensels in a lower exposure situation, with increasing analogue voltage boost, instead of the sensor saturating, the ADC output clips, i.e. as ISO goes up, clipping headroom goes down and highlights are more likely to be clipped (say from a reflection off a piece of metal or a bright sky, in an otherwise darkish scene). With digital boost, the headroom reduction comes from clipping more of the highlights as we run out of bits on the MSB end of the digital word.

With the Sony IMX-071 sensor in K-5, there is very low read (ADC) noise, so there is less need to apply analogue gain before the ADC. Indeed, with the same sensor in the D7000, Nikon decided to perform all gain control only digitally. However, the Pentax engineers decided they could get a small improvement in noise performance (SNR) in the K-5 by still applying analogue gain up until ISO1600. (ISO800-1SO600 is a common switchover area from analogue to digital gain in most DSLRs.)

But the SNR improvement is slight and comes at the expense of reduced clipping headroom. For figures, see: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-k-5/162940-k5-vs-k7-dynamic-range.html#post1689551

Returning to soccer photography, I use centre-weighted AE and sometimes clip highlights (even with -0.7 EV comp). I had this happen recently with a shot where the camera in TAv rose to ISO800, but the part of the scene I was interested (off-centre) should have been at about ISO250-ISO320. I can typically bring back 0.7EV-1EV of excess gain by using the "exposure" control in my raw converter. (A misnomer, since it is the rendered brightness, not exposure, that is being affected by the control.) I realised if I had limited the Auto-ISO range to ISO80-ISO320 I could have recovered from this "over-exposure" (really, an "over-ISO") with hardly any SNR penalty (probably about -0.2 stops).

So now, my TAv settings on a bright day are:
Shutter speed: 1/1000s-1250/s
Aperture: ƒ/4 (with Sigma 70-200/F2.8 II); ƒ/5.6 (with DA* 60-250/F4)
ISO range: 80-320
EV Comp: -0.7 EV

If it's cloudy or overcast:
Shutter speed: 1/800s-1/1000s
Aperture: ƒ/3.4-ƒ/4 (with Sigma 70-200/F2.8 II); ƒ/4-ƒ/5 (with DA* 60-250/F4)
ISO range: 80-800 (I could set the max. ISO to ISO320, but old ways of thinking are hard to overcome)
EV Comp: -0.3 EV or none.

My raw converter (SilkyPix Developer Pro v4) can boost the gain by +3EV/stops. (With RawTherapee you can go to +10 EV.) With a darkish ISO320 shot, +3EV in PP is equivalent to shooting at ISO2500, but with 3 stops more recovery headroom.

Dan.

Last edited by dosdan; 08-17-2012 at 04:02 PM.
08-17-2012, 02:45 PM   #898
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Very cogent post, Dan--I even understood the key points (at least temporarily! ;~)
08-18-2012, 03:30 AM   #899
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For sports I always use TAv on my K5. I already used TAv with the K10 & K7, but could only use ISO 100-800 with those cameras. With the K5 my ISO range for TAv is set to 100-6400, indoors I might even use 100-10000 just to get the shot.
With the DA*300 I will use F4-F5.6, mostly F4.5. If there is sufficient (too much) light I will use F5.6. With the Sigma 70-200 F2.8 I mostly use F2.8-F4 and with the Sigma 120-400 it is F7.2-F8 since the 120-400 is too soft wide open.
Shutterspeed may depend on the type of sport, for soccer I use 1/640-1/1250 but for a baseball game I prefer someting between /1750-1/2000. For races you will often use panning and to get the speed in the picture you will lower that shutterspeed to 1/250-/1500.

grtz, Andre
08-19-2012, 03:57 PM   #900
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Soccermatch in the heat

I went to a friendly soccergame between our local club PSV/FCE and form Russia a team Zorky Krasnogorsk. Our team won 4-2, but this is a goal that is going past our goalkeeper on the ground.



A defenceplayer on the right and a referee on the left.
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