K-5 for sports-photography

**andre-mz5** · 12-08-2011, 06:29 AM

Originally posted by hilda4sea

Hi,
I´am new K5 owner from Czech. I´m switched from Canon to the Pentax, because my bag was to heavy. Now I search solution for my sport shots. Cann you tell me what lens is the best for indoor shoting. My experience with Pentax lens is horrible. The AF speed is slow. I need somethink for the distance of 10 m in the gym and moving objekt (wushu, karate, aikido etc.).
Thank you for your tips.
Hilda

Hi Hilda,
one of the best zooms for indoor sports is the Sigma 70-200 F2.8 OS HSM since it is fast (F2.8) and has very fast AF due to the HSM. I know a number of forum mebers, me included, who have this lens. I think you can find a couple of shots taken with the K5+Sigma 70-200 in this topic.

MetaD · 12-08-2011, 08:26 PM

I'm normally more of a street, landscape or travel photographer, but this November I learned quite a bit about sports photography with my K-5 at some colorful and dynamic festivals in Bhutan.

Lighting tended to be sufficient (sometimes harsh, sometimes nicely muted), but speed vs depth of field was still an important tradeoff. The biggest challenge came from busy backgrounds, therefore subject isolation was essential. This was mitigated by choice of shooting position, sitting close to the action and using wide angle (20mm), or by shallow depth of field using a medium telephoto (77mm at f/1.8).

In retrospect, I wish I had a professional, sports-optimized camera like Nikon or Canon with FF sensor to fully utilize my wide angles and maximize shallow depth of field. I occasionally benefited from the super-tele isolation provided by my f/4.5 300mm F, but I would have benefited most from a FF, fast-focusing camera, like a Nikon D3 or D3s with an f/1.4 24/35mm or the f/2.0 105/135mm DC. The FF sensor lets a wide angle be nice and wide, and provides shallower depth of field for the medium telephoto.

I did not use a zoom lens, which meant I had to do a lot of lens changes. Using the 50-135mm f/2.8 would have given me insufficient depth of field.

The first and third were taken with the f/1.8 31mm Limited; the second was taken with the f/2.8 20mm FA. You can see more Bhutan photgraphse at http://PhotoKinesis.INFO

selar · 12-08-2011, 10:02 PM

Ahhh, a game of Quidditch!

**dadipentak** · 12-08-2011, 10:11 PM

Superb, selar!

**wizofoz** · 12-08-2011, 11:14 PM

Took my new (to me) Da*60-250 out for it's first jaunt as a sports lens. Local cricket club 20/20 match. My team won

These are crops as even at 250mm there is a lot of waste area. The centre wicket area is about 150mts from the fence I was shooting from.

Comments, critisism and suggestions welcomed.

dosdan · 12-08-2011, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by wizofoz

These are crops as even at 250mm there is a lot of waste area. The centre wicket area is about 150mts from the fence I was shooting from.

Wayne, you may find the examples and formula in this link useful to determine subject size with FL & distance:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/photography-articles/143778-subject-heigh...-position.html

Dan.

**wizofoz** · 12-08-2011, 11:49 PM

Originally posted by dosdan

Wayne, you may find the examples and formula in this link useful to determine subject size with FL & distance:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/photography-articles/143778-subject-heigh...-position.html

Dan.

Thanks Dan, Very useful informaton

As you know Aussie rules/cricket grounds are a lot bigger than soccer fields, rugby fields, basketball courts, almost any indoor stadia, etc. This oval, for example would be well over 200yards long, and probably almost as wide. (my original estimate of 150mts to the scene from my shooting spot may have been a little overstated..)

It looks like I need to stick to my Lil Bigma (150-500mm) for shooting from this distance.

However I'm very impressed with the IQ of the 60-250 and K-5 combination and I dont think the images lose a lot of quality from being cropped tighter.

For example here is one of the uncropped originals.

Attached Images

View Picture EXIF

selar · 12-09-2011, 03:20 AM

Originally posted by dadipentak

Superb, selar!

Not my photo, it belongs to Ron. I was merely commenting on his photo, that it looked like a game of Quidditch with the goalie in mid-air. A superb shot indeed from Ron!

**dadipentak** · 12-09-2011, 05:28 AM

Originally posted by selar

Not my photo, it belongs to Ron. I was merely commenting on his photo, that it looked like a game of Quidditch with the goalie in mid-air. A superb shot indeed from Ron!

Ooops!

Then I commend you for praising such a superior photo.

RonHendriks1966 · 12-09-2011, 08:02 AM

Originally posted by selar

Not my photo, it belongs to Ron. I was merely commenting on his photo, that it looked like a game of Quidditch with the goalie in mid-air. A superb shot indeed from Ron!

Thanks, didn't know the term Quidditch, so I learned something too.

Originally posted by dadipentak

Ooops!

Then I commend you for praising such a superior photo.

No worry's I like the Me Like points

It was a fun shot, because we hadn't see the ball and other players for a few minutes by this time I took the picture. I guess she was getting cold muscles.

dosdan · 12-09-2011, 02:22 PM

Wizofoz, you can get a better estimate of the distance in a shot using AOV. I normally use the height of a player, but here I'll use the stumps height. According to Law 8 in the link below, the height of cricket stumps is 71cm (28" or 2.33').

Laws of cricket - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The height of the stumps in the full-frame (i.e. not cropped, but resized) shot you posted is 55px in a 397px high frame i.e. 13.85% of frame height. The total height of the frame is thus approx. 0.71/0.1385 = 5.13m.

Exif data shows that the FL was 250mm. Using the AOV calculator here, set to the Pentax K-7 or or K20D sensor (same physical sensor size), with a FL of 250mm, I inputted a few distances until I got one that gave me a frame height ("Vertical coverage") of 5.12m. That's 82m. (82.2m gives the exact 5.13m frame height, but the measurements are not exact enough to warrant that precision.)

Pentax K-7
FL: 250mm
Subject Distance: 82m
Vertical AOV: 3.57°
Vertical coverage: 5.12m

So you were about 80m away.

Using the link to the formula to determine what FL is required for the close framing of a subject at a distance, (I made a mistake there, using a FF sensor height of 24mm instead of the APS-C height of 15.6mm - I've now amended the original calculations in that post) assuming a player height of 1.8m (5'11") and 15% free space at the top & bottom (a total of 30% extra height), at 80m a FL of 680mm would be required.

80m * 0.86 (a "Frame-Fill Factor" based on a total height of 1.8m * 1.30) / 100 = 0.688m = 680mm FL

So, depending on how many subjects-of-interest are in the frame and how close you want to crop, you may still end up cropping a 500mm FL shot at this distance.

Dan.

**wizofoz** · 12-09-2011, 03:44 PM

Thanks Dan.

I'll be back at that ground later today, I'll try to remember to pace out the distances involved to see how accurate your method is. It seems about right to me.

Maybe I'll need to use the 500 end of the Sigma with a 1.4 TC attached

More on topic, the K-5's hi speed shooting mode allowed me to get several shots at exactly the decisive moment....ball hitting bat, bails in the air, etc...this is a fine all rounder of a camera, there are very few things it does not excell at

dosdan · 12-09-2011, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by wizofoz

I'll try to remember to pace out the distances involved to see how accurate your method is. It seems about right to me.

It will work at small AOVs which is what you have with high FLs. It depends on the tan of an angle vs height relationship being reasonably linear at small angles. Say the angle subtended by the stump height is 0.5° (this is very close to what it is). It occupies 13.85% of frame height in your shot. To get the full frame height multiplier, use the reciprocal of this (1/0.1385), 7.22x.

Comparing the tans:

tan 0.5° * 7.22 = 0.0630
tan of 3.61° = 0.0631

The tan of 3.61° (0.5° * 7.22) is almost the same as the tan of 0.5 ° multiplied by 7.22, and is close enough for be considered the same at this precision. We're interested in the tan because we're looking at the change of height at a fixed distance and tan = height / distance.

A typical adult player standing is about 1.78m (5'10"), if wearing a small helmet about 1.8m (5'11").

Dan

**wizofoz** · 12-09-2011, 05:36 PM

Sine cosine and tangent were the three things that gave me the most trouble back in the dark ages (when I was at school), so I'll leave the math to you Dan. All I need to know for now is I need a longer lens to fill the frame (or I need to get closer, I wonder if they would let me take pics and be square leg umpire at the same time??

)

dosdan · 12-09-2011, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by wizofoz

More on topic, the K-5's hi speed shooting mode allowed me to get several shots at exactly the decisive moment....ball hitting bat, bails in the air, etc.

Yes, I'm hoping this will be very useful when soccer season starts.

Did you fill the buffer at any times? Probably less of a problem in cricket, where you are reasonably certain of when something will occur, whereas there's less certainty about exactly when a soccer player will kick.

Dan.

12-08-2011, 08:26 PM	#332
MetaD Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Colorado Posts: 105	I'm normally more of a street, landscape or travel photographer, but this November I learned quite a bit about sports photography with my K-5 at some colorful and dynamic festivals in Bhutan. Lighting tended to be sufficient (sometimes harsh, sometimes nicely muted), but speed vs depth of field was still an important tradeoff. The biggest challenge came from busy backgrounds, therefore subject isolation was essential. This was mitigated by choice of shooting position, sitting close to the action and using wide angle (20mm), or by shallow depth of field using a medium telephoto (77mm at f/1.8). In retrospect, I wish I had a professional, sports-optimized camera like Nikon or Canon with FF sensor to fully utilize my wide angles and maximize shallow depth of field. I occasionally benefited from the super-tele isolation provided by my f/4.5 300mm F, but I would have benefited most from a FF, fast-focusing camera, like a Nikon D3 or D3s with an f/1.4 24/35mm or the f/2.0 105/135mm DC. The FF sensor lets a wide angle be nice and wide, and provides shallower depth of field for the medium telephoto. I did not use a zoom lens, which meant I had to do a lot of lens changes. Using the 50-135mm f/2.8 would have given me insufficient depth of field. The first and third were taken with the f/1.8 31mm Limited; the second was taken with the f/2.8 20mm FA. You can see more Bhutan photgraphse at http://PhotoKinesis.INFO Last edited by MetaD; 12-08-2011 at 08:53 PM.

12-08-2011, 10:02 PM	#333
selar Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,042	Ahhh, a game of Quidditch! Last edited by selar; 12-09-2011 at 03:21 AM. Reason: Correcting mistake, this is not my photo, it is Ron's

12-09-2011, 02:22 PM	#341
dosdan Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Brisbane, Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,741	Wizofoz, you can get a better estimate of the distance in a shot using AOV. I normally use the height of a player, but here I'll use the stumps height. According to Law 8 in the link below, the height of cricket stumps is 71cm (28" or 2.33'). Laws of cricket - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The height of the stumps in the full-frame (i.e. not cropped, but resized) shot you posted is 55px in a 397px high frame i.e. 13.85% of frame height. The total height of the frame is thus approx. 0.71/0.1385 = 5.13m. Exif data shows that the FL was 250mm. Using the AOV calculator here, set to the Pentax K-7 or or K20D sensor (same physical sensor size), with a FL of 250mm, I inputted a few distances until I got one that gave me a frame height ("Vertical coverage") of 5.12m. That's 82m. (82.2m gives the exact 5.13m frame height, but the measurements are not exact enough to warrant that precision.) Pentax K-7 FL: 250mm Subject Distance: 82m Vertical AOV: 3.57° Vertical coverage: 5.12m So you were about 80m away. Using the link to the formula to determine what FL is required for the close framing of a subject at a distance, (I made a mistake there, using a FF sensor height of 24mm instead of the APS-C height of 15.6mm - I've now amended the original calculations in that post) assuming a player height of 1.8m (5'11") and 15% free space at the top & bottom (a total of 30% extra height), at 80m a FL of 680mm would be required. *80m 0.86** (a "Frame-Fill Factor" based on a total height of 1.8m * 1.30) / 100 = 0.688m = 680mm FL So, depending on how many subjects-of-interest are in the frame and how close you want to crop, you may still end up cropping a 500mm FL shot at this distance. Dan. Last edited by dosdan; 12-09-2011 at 05:43 PM.

12-09-2011, 05:11 PM	#343
dosdan Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Brisbane, Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,741	Originally posted by wizofoz I'll try to remember to pace out the distances involved to see how accurate your method is. It seems about right to me. It will work at small AOVs which is what you have with high FLs. It depends on the tan of an angle vs height relationship being reasonably linear at small angles. Say the angle subtended by the stump height is 0.5° (this is very close to what it is). It occupies 13.85% of frame height in your shot. To get the full frame height multiplier, use the reciprocal of this (1/0.1385), 7.22x. Comparing the tans: tan 0.5° * 7.22 = 0.0630 tan of 3.61° = 0.0631 The tan of 3.61° (0.5° * 7.22) is almost the same as the tan of 0.5 ° multiplied by 7.22, and is close enough for be considered the same at this precision. We're interested in the tan because we're looking at the change of height at a fixed distance and tan = height / distance. A typical adult player standing is about 1.78m (5'10"), if wearing a small helmet about 1.8m (5'11"). Dan Last edited by dosdan; 12-09-2011 at 05:34 PM.

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12-08-2011, 06:29 AM	#331
andre-mz5 Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Eindhoven Photos: Gallery Posts: 268	Originally posted by hilda4sea Hi, I´am new K5 owner from Czech. I´m switched from Canon to the Pentax, because my bag was to heavy. Now I search solution for my sport shots. Cann you tell me what lens is the best for indoor shoting. My experience with Pentax lens is horrible. The AF speed is slow. I need somethink for the distance of 10 m in the gym and moving objekt (wushu, karate, aikido etc.). Thank you for your tips. Hilda Hi Hilda, one of the best zooms for indoor sports is the Sigma 70-200 F2.8 OS HSM since it is fast (F2.8) and has very fast AF due to the HSM. I know a number of forum mebers, me included, who have this lens. I think you can find a couple of shots taken with the K5+Sigma 70-200 in this topic.

12-08-2011, 10:11 PM	#334
dadipentak Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Baltimore, Maryland Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,590	Superb, selar!

12-08-2011, 11:31 PM	#336
dosdan Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Brisbane, Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,741	Originally posted by wizofoz These are crops as even at 250mm there is a lot of waste area. The centre wicket area is about 150mts from the fence I was shooting from. Wayne, you may find the examples and formula in this link useful to determine subject size with FL & distance: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/photography-articles/143778-subject-heigh...-position.html Dan.

12-09-2011, 03:20 AM	#338
selar Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,042	Originally posted by dadipentak Superb, selar! Not my photo, it belongs to Ron. I was merely commenting on his photo, that it looked like a game of Quidditch with the goalie in mid-air. A superb shot indeed from Ron!

12-09-2011, 05:28 AM	#339
dadipentak Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Baltimore, Maryland Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,590	Originally posted by selar Not my photo, it belongs to Ron. I was merely commenting on his photo, that it looked like a game of Quidditch with the goalie in mid-air. A superb shot indeed from Ron! Ooops! Then I commend you for praising such a superior photo.

12-09-2011, 08:02 AM	#340
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675 Original Poster	Originally posted by selar Not my photo, it belongs to Ron. I was merely commenting on his photo, that it looked like a game of Quidditch with the goalie in mid-air. A superb shot indeed from Ron! Thanks, didn't know the term Quidditch, so I learned something too. Originally posted by dadipentak Ooops! Then I commend you for praising such a superior photo. No worry's I like the Me Like points It was a fun shot, because we hadn't see the ball and other players for a few minutes by this time I took the picture. I guess she was getting cold muscles.

12-09-2011, 03:44 PM	#342
wizofoz Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Melbourne, Outer east. Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,695	Thanks Dan. I'll be back at that ground later today, I'll try to remember to pace out the distances involved to see how accurate your method is. It seems about right to me. Maybe I'll need to use the 500 end of the Sigma with a 1.4 TC attached More on topic, the K-5's hi speed shooting mode allowed me to get several shots at exactly the decisive moment....ball hitting bat, bails in the air, etc...this is a fine all rounder of a camera, there are very few things it does not excell at

12-09-2011, 05:36 PM	#344
wizofoz Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Melbourne, Outer east. Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,695	Sine cosine and tangent were the three things that gave me the most trouble back in the dark ages (when I was at school), so I'll leave the math to you Dan. All I need to know for now is I need a longer lens to fill the frame (or I need to get closer, I wonder if they would let me take pics and be square leg umpire at the same time?? )

12-09-2011, 05:40 PM	#345
dosdan Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Brisbane, Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,741	Originally posted by wizofoz More on topic, the K-5's hi speed shooting mode allowed me to get several shots at exactly the decisive moment....ball hitting bat, bails in the air, etc. Yes, I'm hoping this will be very useful when soccer season starts. Did you fill the buffer at any times? Probably less of a problem in cricket, where you are reasonably certain of when something will occur, whereas there's less certainty about exactly when a soccer player will kick. Dan.

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