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09-23-2010, 10:02 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Raylon Quote
Using the printer isn't the point of getting the printer. It's getting the printer for $50 after rebate and then selling it for $400 on eBay, with a profit of $350, essentially knocking the price of the 7D down to $1350.
just make sure that you could sell that printer for $400.

09-23-2010, 10:09 AM   #32
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Well its a fascinating thread and i won't criticize any point of view, i'm sure they are all well intended and based on personal experience.

I wouldn't buy the 7D because its large and because its not the latest generation on high iso. I'm a believer in latest iso cameras. Cameras seem to be moving fast in this area and i want the best for low light work. I often shoot at 1600, 3200 and even 6400. the less effort on PP NR the better, in my opinon.

Autofocus - over and over i hear the same complaint about Pentax and AF. when i go back and use my Canon PS with its fast contrast AF, its a joy. then back to my K20 and its a struggle and several attempts. If Pentax didn't get it right on the K5 and Kr, i may be moving on to the D7000. I don't care about the video part at all, electronic horizons, onboard HDR and all the BS functions, i want a reliable AF, period.
09-23-2010, 10:17 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by JeffJS Quote
I get the impression that part of what is driving your *rushed* decision is this rebate. Bad idea IMO. Not that rebates aren't nice or that I wouldn't get use out of the printer but how much Printing do you really see yourself doing? I ask that because the last time I considered a photo printer, I decided against even getting one. The support cost seemed ridiculous to me. I felt the money was much better spent on lenses and the like. Especially when I can go to any number of sites, upload a file, choose a size and other options, and a week later (or so) my prints were at my door. That may not work for someone in a hurry but it does for me.

Companies are always offering rebates of one sort or another. It isn't likely you're going to put your hands on a K5 before the end of the month so trying to guess at whether or not you will like it is, again, a bad idea. Any of the Pentax flagship models (and even the Kx/Kr) is going to out-perform your current camera.

All of the cameras are going to have their pros and cons. There is going to be something about each that you love and there is going to be something about each that you hate. The Only true advantage I see of choosing Canon over the Pentax (for us Amateurs) is lens selection and availability. The question you really need to asnwer is how much are you willing to pay for it (and compare apples to apples when making your decision).

I think this is the main reason why the 7D is better. I'd bet if you sell the K5 for $1,000, it will be the better camera between the two. Having held the 7D, I would say that it has some of great features in it and there are things that I don't like about it. I can't say that it is better or would make me choose it over the K-5. as I said, the K-5's real capability and differentiator is yet to be seen.

personally, by how much the the 7D is selling with rebates + printer, it is still not a FF camera and clearly gets smoked by it's 5D MKII brother. if you are going to get FF lenses, it doesnt make any sense if you going to buy a cropped sensor camera especially if a 5D MK II body is available for a few hundred bucks more.
09-23-2010, 10:56 AM   #34
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My response was from my own perspective. I NEVER buy Anything with the hope that I can resell it for what I think I can. I've seen people sell K1000 (regular, not the SE) for over $100. I can barely give them away at $20. Frankly, and I've stated this in another thread, I' wouldn't buy anything 'as new' for pennies less than New, from a third party private seller. Especially electronics for reasons of warranty (which stays with the original owner). Some don't care but again, my own perspective.

That said, Everything I buy, I figure on keeping And Using. If I can resell items, great. If not, I have more clutter in my house. Some people here have received some nice camera equipment from my reselling. I do not however, Count on being able to do it. That, is what I meant by Bad Idea in my original Post.

I've never held a 7D and even had to check and make sure it wasn't a full frame camera. I remember all the hub-bub from when it was released and it looks like a nice camera. Not enough to make me a convert though. If I were going to dump Pentax for another brand, it would be Only for full frame. Since that isn't that important to me, I'll be here a little while longer (to the dismay of some, I'm sure )..




09-23-2010, 11:17 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Well its a fascinating thread and i won't criticize any point of view, i'm sure they are all well intended and based on personal experience.

I wouldn't buy the 7D because its large and because its not the latest generation on high iso. I'm a believer in latest iso cameras. Cameras seem to be moving fast in this area and i want the best for low light work. I often shoot at 1600, 3200 and even 6400. the less effort on PP NR the better, in my opinon.
So what is the "latest generation on high iso"? I have yet to see anything that convinces me that any other current crop camera beats the 7D; and I am talking prints not dxomark or spec sheets.

As for 7D vs whatever; what sells me personally on the 7D is the ridiculously good AF system, the resolution, and the wonderful lack of pattern noise (which was annoying on the 50D at higher ISO). If I did not want access to the Canon glass, the AF performance or wanted to shoot at 1600 or higher, I would probably just get another K20D... so if those things aren't a major priority to you then it is a bit of a hard sell.
09-23-2010, 11:47 AM   #36
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while I agree with the posters on the 7D which is feature wise either on par or better K-5. To me, portability is important. The fact that I will take it with me in every occasion, such as on a cruise, hiking and land tour etc. makes it a great tool. I have over 50K clicks on my k10D already in less than 3 years and I can see the same for my K-7. From my personal experience, my friends who has 5D and 5D MKII, they seem to put to full frame in cold storage (used may be a few times a year) while often use the G10, or SONY bridge camera while travelling. Another friend who owned D200 has not touched it for nearly 2 years (still own it though). If you don't mind the size of 7D with some good glass; then I think that the 7D is a good play for you.

One guy, a retired family doctor, I met on a cruise, had a D700 and 24-70 f2.8 glass with him. A big beautiful setup, I handled once (took a picture of him using his camera) - amazing viewfinder I might add. He only took it out for the day when we stopped at Costa Meyer - never saw him with the camera on his neck again for the rest of the cruise. His comment later was "too damn heavy for the day trip". My suggestion to you: do whatever make sense for you.

Last edited by aleonx3; 09-23-2010 at 12:07 PM.
09-23-2010, 12:01 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Miguel Quote
The 7D is a very modern camera. I've owned one for about two months. I was planning on purchasing a Nikon D300s for sports and birds, but the ergonomics on the 7D won me over pretty easily. Most of the Canon crop cameras I've used over the past five years have had kludgy design; this camera is mostly different.

It fits the hand quite well and doesn't feel all that big. The viewfinder is better than the K-7 for both AF and manual focusing. It is easier to use M42 lenses on the 7D because the adapters, unlike the old-style Pentax one, just pop out with the lens attached like any other bayonet-mount lens.

Generally the systems exceed the K-7, but the Pentax still has the feel that a photographer rather than an engineer designed the camera.

The LiveView is excellent; video too.

The weather resistance of the body is very good; not quite K-7 but I think adequate for the Pacific Northwest where I shoot. Now none of my Pentax lenses are weather resistant either, but you know, those OpTech Rainsleeves are really cheap and work quite well for outdoor sports shooting. That's the real world talking, not a keyboard. or ad copy.

The shutter feels and sounds excellent. The predictive AF systems are so beyond the K-7 and very most likely the K-5;
The AF points are nicely configurable;
The AF has more detailed Spot AF which is great for the eyes of birds;
You have three custom modes on the dial.
The flash system is so much better than Pentax though not quite up to Nikon.
Many of the buttons are customizable

There are some stupid things:
-The second wheel is a thumb wheel that I cannot get used to; it rotates and has a center select button, but it is not a 4 or 5 way button.
-There is only a front facing IR port for cheap wireless remote control. My K20D has a rear port as well. This makes shooting portraits and group shots a lot easier as I can hide the remote in my palm and trigger the shutter from most anywhere when working the group; on the 7d I have to use a wired remote which distracts in a negative way. You'd think Canon had a staff photographer around to do scenario testing.
-MLU is not triggered by the 3-second shutter delay.
-The shooting modes are typical.
-The top LCD is relied upon too much for critical information
-With 18 MP, onscreen noise requires more oomph in software, but it is controllable. Prints turn out excellently though.
-Canon cannot make a decent ultra-wide angle prime for crop cameras.

Other things to be aware of:
-The Canon lens system is primarily oriented towards 135-format bodies, FF. This is good and not good.
-It's not good because only a few EF-S (crop sensor) lenses are considered better than average; some of the third parties make very nice versions, especially Tokina using the same Pentax DA and DA*
designs more or less.
-It's good because having a "FF" pull of gravity means that sooner or later you may just get a 5DMKII which is a very fine camera that mostly produces better images than any APS-C body. You just have to manage the transition of lenses upward and balance their use with your shooting requirements. I use the 7D where the perceived telephoto boost is beneficial.
-Canon lenses are very expensive; third parties are generally held in lower esteem by Canonites than Pentaxians feel.
-Canon zooms are many and powerful; their primes can be amazing (135mm @ f2) but I know many professional shooters who just use a couple of f2.8 zooms and a T/S.
-The Pentax overall approach is very unique, quirky, and charming to an extent. The cameras are better integrated with your mind and body somehow. Until you need fast AF and long fast glass.
-Pentax higher end glass is excellent and special for the small size and high quality and weather resistance.

Finally, while it feels kinda special using Pentax, it is also harder to solve some problems that develop over the years (I've been doing this for 40 years). Going with a market leader ensures that there is an almost limitless supply of helpful information both online and in photo communities. And the tools and support are out there. I can go to my pro shop and test out or even rent bodies and lenses seemingly forever. I can put out a request to borrow a flash cable or a TC on my local e-list and get a response within an hour. Lightroom 3 has my lens profiles and can auto-correct distortion etc. on RAW files. I can also tether a Canon DSLR.

You are more on your own with Pentax--a mixed blessing over time.

M
What a great write up. Thanks
09-23-2010, 12:15 PM   #38
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compared to a K-x the 7d is very slightly better noise wise once resized to match at 3200 iso. And i mean VERY slightly. But the K-x has SLIGHTLY more detail, and i mean very slightly.

For the price difference its not really worth it imo, unless you specifically need the megapixels.

I would say the K-5 would be better assuming its better than a K-x plus the K-5 will have the ergonomics to beat.

This is the conclusion ive come to comparing iso 3200 images from :Imaging Resource "Comparometer" ™ Digital Camera Image Comparison Page

09-23-2010, 02:43 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
I haven't skewered the spec sheets, but based on FPS, video and resolution, I'd guess the 7D is superior to the K-5.
I don't think so..I think you meant to say that the Pentax output will outperform that of the Canon 7D.
09-23-2010, 03:17 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Arpe Quote
But not for me. For me big doesn't beat small. Not so weather-sealed doesn't beat very weather-sealed. Heavy doesn't beat lighter. Compact flash doesn't beat SD card. SR in camera doesn't beat SR in lens..etc...

So for you maybe, but not in the black and white and because I say so manner.
I keep reading this comment...it seems very arbitrary and subjective. Canon has been making sealed bodies for ages I don't see them making a sealed body and doing a half-ass'd job of it. I see them doing a proper job and adding seals where they are needed. Or are people just counting seals and calling it good? Or does the K5 have a high degree of redundant sealing that help protect against primary seal failures?

I just don't see people doing more than parroting that comment...someone please explain why and how because the statement alone has no legs on which to stand.

Also, heavy can actually BEAT lighter because heavier usually means more stable...too light can mean too jiggly and too heavy can mean too wobbly as well...weight is completely individual and subjective and far from an absolute measure of a camera's quality.
09-23-2010, 04:07 PM   #41
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Of course, not being able to afford both, I can only comment on what I have read and seen. I've seen the Pentax camera and lenses in the shower, I haven't seen a Canon in the shower. I have heard from 7D owners about their reluctance to test the camera fully in foul weather, I have had my K-7 and K20D in foul weather and get quite wet. I can only surmise from what I know.
QuoteOriginally posted by brecklundin Quote
heavy can actually BEAT lighter because heavier usually means more stable
Like the rest of a camera's features this is subjective too, but you say "can" not "does" so you realise that already.

I was merely pointing that, as you have done as well, it is not a "fact" that the "7D will beat K-5 in every aspect." as asserted by Raylon.
09-23-2010, 04:14 PM   #42
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A good debate has come out of this - it shows that the 7D and K-5 are reasonably comparable and have different points for and against.

Weather sealing aside, performance-wise we do have 2 different beasts that goes well beyond the relatively trivial 2Mp difference in resolution. The K-5, hands-on review pending, sounds like a formidable force in high ISO performance which again comes out as important for so many users, ethusiasts and pros alike. So there are very practical advantages of having the K-5 over a 7D.
09-23-2010, 05:58 PM   #43
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You are welcome troelsmeister.
I try to present a whole view as well as speak from experience. All the camera systems we are talking about in this thread are quite fine; exponentially better than what was offered a mere 5 years ago.

M

QuoteOriginally posted by troelsmeister Quote
What a great write up. Thanks
09-23-2010, 09:51 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by brecklundin Quote

Also, heavy can actually BEAT lighter because heavier usually means more stable...too light can mean too jiggly and too heavy can mean too wobbly as well...weight is completely individual and subjective and far from an absolute measure of a camera's quality.
hmmmm....there is actually a fallacy here and I dont think it is necessarily subjective automatically but rather what is actually deemed as subjective or practically advantageous.

like when a person likes the camera big because it would make you look cool and look like a photographer, then that's subjective. you want it bigger because it fits in your hand nicely and has an even balance, then that is a practical advantage. same can be said of the smaller K-5 camera. it is subjectively cool because it's small, and it is practically advantageously light for carrying all day.

but concerning weight, generally I dont think that most people in general would like something heavy just for stability. it is more likely that people would shoot at faster shutter speed and increasing ISO and would also use a tripod and a flash when need to keep everything in focus and stable. as far a handheld stability is concerned, this is how SR, IS, VR were invented. the point is, lenses would have been made heavier if it's true that heavy equipment would solve the stability concerns. remember that some or most older lenses are heavier than their modern counterparts.

Last edited by Pentaxor; 09-23-2010 at 11:02 PM.
09-23-2010, 10:53 PM   #45
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Pentax has much better wheather seals, I have read an article about how Canon 7D became functionless after getting some water.

K-5 has much better sensor than Canon 7D in terms of noise.

7D is big heavy cow.
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