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10-15-2010, 05:42 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
The OP touches a point but draws the wrong conclusion.

Kr vs. K5 is a nice example but not the only. Almost same sensor (15% pitch difference, both Exmor HD), same processor, almost same fps (6 vs. 7), almost same AF module.

But besides a number of other differences, the real difference is that the K-5 simply plays in another league. Just look at the camera from an analog film era point of view (all film camera shared the same sensor btw...). The K-5 is outstanding mechanically where the Kr is only good. K5 makes much more fun to shoot with. A league I always call the enthusiast class.

The problem is that this class is currently artificially made APSC (the technology would allow 35mm at this price point now). And the market starts to ask questions like the OP, "what's actually justifying the price premium?".

Therefore, the APSC enthusiast class premium has begun to erode (D7000) and I am sure the enthusiast class will soon cease to be APSC. That's why I wrote my recent blog article.


Currently, the price premium seems artificial indeed although it is due to the mechanics and possibly tighter tolerances. But that's true for the entire enthusiast APSC class.
This completely wrong on all accounts.

1) There are no reason to assume that this class of camera is overpriced. This class of camera sells about 1/10 of the entry level and is significantly more expensively built.
2). Price is the most important selling point regardless; FF will always be significantly more expensive particularly when the expenses of lenses is taken into account and hence have a lot smaller sales potential.
3) there is no consumer based demand for FF. In fact, it could be argued that APS is way above the sweetspot for image quality the general consumer and even professional demands. The trend is not towards FF in spite of a decade of saying so.
4) There's no wish from manufacturers to sell FF cheap. The idea of replacing a sucessful recipie (APS) with a camera with more expensive components at the same price is ludicrous. Manufacturers have no interest in reducing profit; particularly not by answering a virtually non-existing demand. The flop of Sony's FF camera illustrates the point. FF makes sense for the manufacturers as long as they can sell them expensively; If they can sell them at all (Sony can't).
5) There are always people asking why things are so expensive regardless of how cheap they are. It doesn't matter if it cost $1; why not 50c?
The K-5 is very competitively priced for what it does. If it is too expensive, buy something cheaper.


Last edited by Pl Jensen; 10-15-2010 at 05:50 AM.
10-15-2010, 06:08 AM   #32
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Is the FA31 worth the 2x price of the FA35?
Is the DA*55 worth the 2x price of the FA50?
Is the FA*85 worth the 2x price of the FA77?

The answer to all of these questions is "it depends". It depends on what your priorities are, what features are more important to you and how much you are willing to pay for them. In each of the above examples, most people would agree the more expensive lens is the "better lens". Yet there are features of the less expensive lens that one could argue make it more attractive; perhaps the AF speed (or lack of SDM) of the FA50 over the DA*55 or the physical size of the FA*85 to the FA77.

So much like with lenses, people will looks at their options and ultimately decide whether or not the K5 is worth twice the price of a Kr. I personally don't know the answer to that question, but I hope to find out as my K5 got on the UPS truck this morning at 6:37am

One final thought, as I'm sure someone will point this out soon. I understand that there is a significant difference between talking about lenses and DSLR bodies as lenses hold their value much better than bodies. This obviously makes buying expensive glass (vs cheaper glass) less "expensive" in terms of real cost of ownership. That said, my point was just that there are plently of examples where doubling the price of an item doesn't double the utility of that item but that in and of itself doesn't make it a poor choice to purchase.
10-15-2010, 06:24 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Good points being made, though I'm not convinced that the K-5 needs to be priced higher than the K-7 was at first release just because it's still being sold now.

I get the gist of the argument put forward but from a consumer's point of view, regardless of this concept, is the camera got to prove itself worth the higher price and does it compare favourably to the competition? These are real issues - even though it may be just money we're talking about, and enthusiasts don't have as much an issue with dropping a few hundred extra just to stick with Pentax as a keen newbie or non-Pentaxian enthusiast in the market for a new dSLR.

I don't normally join these discussions as they seem pointless to me. Buy the best you can afford and be happy with it. But...from looking at some of the images out of the K-5, you're wondering why it would be released above the original price of the K-7????

Gee, let's see...fix the ISO issues (blow them out of the water really), AF speed/accuracy, FPS, etc and still keep all the pros (build, Wx sealing...). I think the issue with the competition being lower priced (if it really is that) is that they're scared and are trying to retain market share. Laugh if you will, but Canikon has got to be a little worried that IF (a big if) the consumer gets a chance to see, touch, try out the K-5 and compare it to Canikon products in a similar price range, and then also find out that it's completely backwards compatible, and they don't have to buy shake reduction every time they want a different lens...

Now to see how dpreview is going to diss the K-5 and K-r.
10-15-2010, 06:24 AM   #34
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Played with D7000 for a few hours last night, not very inpressed, D90 feels a lot better, the control on D7000 isn't all that either.
Maybe we can start comparing K-5 with 7D and D300s?!?!?!?!

10-15-2010, 06:58 AM   #35
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The D700 is on Amazon for $1199...the K5 for $1599. You don't need to be a Rocket Scientist to figure this one out....the Nikon will trounce the K5. Someone might want to mention to Hoya that there is a worldwide recession in progress, Nikon is much better well known that Pentax, and $400 is a lot of cash difference to the majority of people worldwide.

No way I will buy the K5 at $1599, and if it stays there I will never own one. It isn't the $1599, an easy expense for my budget, but I don't ever enjoy being shafted, and that is exactly what Pentax is trying to do here.....Congratulations Pentax, you figured out how to grab failure from the jaws of success!
Best Regards!
10-15-2010, 07:06 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
No way I will buy the K5 at $1599, and if it stays there I will never own one. It isn't the $1599, an easy expense for my budget, but I don't ever enjoy being shafted, and that is exactly what Pentax is trying to do here.....Congratulations Pentax, you figured out how to grab failure from the jaws of success!
Don't forget the simplest most obvious....
You get what you pay for

Just looking at the two systems makes it pretty obvious.
However the advantages don't stop at the ergonomics either... The K-5 earns its keep where it matters most.... by besting even the D700 in the process...
So from where I stand, I think Pentax is doing the right thing by taking the high road.
But for the price conscience onces, theres always the K-r option...
10-15-2010, 07:15 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
Congratulations Pentax, you figured out how to grab failure from the jaws of success!
Best Regards!

Well, I'm with you in that I'm waiting, but disagree about failure. It's only failure that we can't have them at a "reasonable" price. It would be a "fail" if they sat begging on the shelves. It's looking like Pentax dealers will sell their initial allocations at $1600, so I'd say it's not a Pentax fail. Sure, Nikon is going to sell 10 boatloads more, but I'll bet Pentax will sell what they figured they would at this price.
10-15-2010, 07:27 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by luke0622 Quote
Played with D7000 for a few hours last night, not very inpressed, D90 feels a lot better, the control on D7000 isn't all that either.
Maybe we can start comparing K-5 with 7D and D300s?!?!?!?!
I wasn't impressed by my quick D7000 trial either but then I may be biased when it comes to look&feel

The K-5 is compared with 60D, 7D, D7000 and D300s. But 60D feels so crappy in comparison (and its contrast AF seems to be useless) and we know D300s wouldn't be able to compete in low light that both are easily dimissed early on in comparisons.

K-5, 7D and D7000 therefore are the 3 combatans right now. Wouldn't it have been cool if K-7 would have been called K-5 then and the new one K-7 now

7D has a number of advantages (e.g., buffer size) but cannot compete on DR. No wonder so many look closely at K-5 vs. D7000.

10-15-2010, 07:27 AM   #39
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Not news or rumor. Moved to DSLR.
10-15-2010, 07:31 AM   #40
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Methinks the K-5 will be around $1000 in a few months....once the surplus of unsold bodies warrants an unloading. Nothing about the K-5's feature set warrants a $300 increase over the last few flagship cameras they have released in the past 4 years.

On a similar note and come to think of it, there is no way anyone can tell me a full frame body from any manufacturer needs to cost what it does. The only major difference between a FF body and a cropped sensor is the amount of silicon used for the sensor...certainly not $1000+ more. Correct me if I am wrong, but is there anything else in a FF body that should justify $2500+?

Jason
10-15-2010, 07:33 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Therefore, the APSC enthusiast class premium has begun to erode (D7000) and I am sure the enthusiast class will soon cease to be APSC. That's why I wrote my recent blog article.
Or FF will start to erode, because FF means much more bulk (a Nikkor 70-200/2.8 weighs twice as much as a Pentax 50-135) and only marginally better image quality than APS-C. And for those that don't want to compromise: Why choose FF when MF is even better? And with MF you can keep an APS-C system for those occasions where MF is too bulky.
10-15-2010, 07:39 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
The D700 is on Amazon for $1199...the K5 for $1599. You don't need to be a Rocket Scientist to figure this one out....the Nikon will trounce the K5. Someone might want to mention to Hoya that there is a worldwide recession in progress, Nikon is much better well known that Pentax, and $400 is a lot of cash difference to the majority of people worldwide.

No way I will buy the K5 at $1599, and if it stays there I will never own one. It isn't the $1599, an easy expense for my budget, but I don't ever enjoy being shafted, and that is exactly what Pentax is trying to do here.....Congratulations Pentax, you figured out how to grab failure from the jaws of success!
Best Regards!
For what it's worth, I also agree that the K5 is a bit pricey at 1600 (in comparison to either the D7000 or the K7/Kr). I also prefer not to get shafted, and have never paid more than $800 for a DSLR body, so purchasing the K5 was a bit out of character for me. That said, for the past 6 months I have to said to myself that if Pentax puts out a DSLR that has a K7 body/features with a sensor as good as or better than the Kx (with respect to high ISO) and came make some improvements in the AF, then I would buy regardless of price. Now I was hoping that the "regardless of price" price would have been closer to 1100-1200, but it wasn't. Now my only conern is that the K5 lives up to my (possibly inflated) expectations
10-15-2010, 07:40 AM - 1 Like   #43
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Here's a simple solution to those who don't think the K-5 is worth double the money over the K-r:

Don't buy it. Was that hard?

The Nikon D3s is $4,750. I could buy it, but would I be flat broke? Yes. Would I take pictures that were six times better and worth living off of cup of noodles? Hell no.

I don't care if the K-x/K-r could do ISO 102,400 that looked like ISO1600 on the K-7, you'd have to pay me to use a crippled consumer grade single e-dial camera again.
10-15-2010, 07:49 AM   #44
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Luckily its not a worldwide $400.

Seems to be a localised problem
10-15-2010, 07:53 AM   #45
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Whether the price of the K5 will settle to a "comfortable" level is one thing and to try justifying the ongoing pre-order price is another.

Is it worth double the price of the K-r? I'd say it is all in the eye of the beholder.

For instance, I would probably have ordered right away (not available in Canada yet though) the K5 if I had upgraded from my K20D and because of that, the ongoing price of the K5 would not have had a bearing on my decision. I "want it NOW!" would have been the reason in spite of the release price.

Now, I own a K7 and this changes my decision as to when I should order.
It does what I want but of course I'd like it to be a better performer in a couple of main areas: AF and ISO. But I can live with that until I do get the K5.
In this case, it is very likely that I won't order the K5 until at least next Spring. By then, prices should have settled somewhat and I expect that it would be much less than double-the-price of the K-r ((price of the K-r as we know it now)).

Whether the price of the K5 will still be double that of the K-r by then (Spring 2011) is another thing altogether; what I am saying is that the "high 2x the price of the K-r" will only be relative to what I am expecting to pay later.

This sounds confusing, my apologies, but that is my take on the subject.

From what I see and read all over, the K5 is one heck of a camera and is worth what it is worth to whomever wants to get it, now or later.

JP
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